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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 0:19:07 GMT -5
And no I wouldn't, because I don't care about popularity, I only care that they're friends with me, don't compare my feelings to a fictional character's, please. [brSorry I guess? I strongly dislike it when people compare my feelings, especially if they don't even know me, to a fictional cat. But it's fine. I've had a stressful evening and I do not want to argue about this any further.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 0:41:45 GMT -5
What difference does it make if she has powers or not? She still saved so many lives with them, and that's the whole point And that's why she was given them in the first place. The prophecy was made so the Clans could be saved and that's what she did. I don't deny that the Three were overhyped and could have done more in the battle, but the things Dovewing did outside the battle were still important nonetheless and it doesn't matter if her powers helped her or not. And I don't disgree that Dovewing is a poorly developed character. But in terms of the plot she did more than Ivypool when it comes to saving the Clans. What did Ivypool do besides go to the Dark Forest and learn battle moves? Nothing, really. People don't think Ivypool deserves credit because she waited until the very last second. She spent the first three books defending the Dark Forest, and then when she finally realized they were bad she still did nothing until half way through the Last Hope. Sure, she agreed to spy, but spying doesn't do anything if you don't give any information out. The Clans could have been preparing for this battle since Sign of the Moon, possibly even Night Whispers. They could have been so well prepared for this battle if they had just know better. So many lives could have been saved if she had actually done what she was supposed to do and speak up sooner. Honestly all Ivypool did was trick the Dark Forest into trusting her by doing everything they wanted, and then she turned on them in battle just like many of the Dark Forest trainee cats did. But there were valid reasons for her not to spill the information. She was scared for her own life, and that Lionblaze and the rest will call everyone traitors. She wanted to protect her clanmates in a way, and she did spill the information after all. She just had bad timing. I understand that she was scared, but don't you find it a little strange that Ivypool was perfectly fine spending time with all these evil murderers until it became an inconvenience to her? She was never scared for her life until she didn't want to be there anymore, and even defended these cats knowing their backstories and what they were capable of. And I understand wanting to protect Clan mates, but what if some of them actually had ended up being traitors to ThunderClan? In the end they were all good, thankfully, but seeing how other cats betrayed their Clans for the Dark Forest, ThunderClan could have been put into a terrible position. If she had given tips for who had been training, Lionblaze could have monitored them just in case.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 0:48:38 GMT -5
Or for example, Ivypool could have found out the reasons the cats had been lured into the Dark Forest and explained that to the Three. For example, she could have told them why Blossomfall had been training in the Dark Forest. That would make them less suspicious to believe she was a traitor to the Clan, because they would know she was tricked just like Ivypool. Because then depending on what lured them in, they would know which cats are more trustworthy and which cats to keep an eye on.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Oct 20, 2016 0:51:47 GMT -5
But some of the reasons aren't really the best. Birchfall stated he just wanted to be a better warrior, right? That would sound suspicious. And some cats could come off as obvious choices, but may not be targets.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 20, 2016 5:17:20 GMT -5
I think it's funny I said Maplefrost and not Mapleshade, lord.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 20, 2016 5:45:18 GMT -5
I don't think the case is that Ivy is getting more credit than she deserves, it's more like just a lot of people are giving her credit where it's due. She's more popular than Dovewing, so she ends up getting more attention but the amount of credit is still the same because of what she did. I'm not saying Dovewing didn't do anything at all, but like I stated before, she did everything mostly because of her powers. Finding out about the beavers? Her powers. Hearing the tree falling? Her powers. Sensing the invasion before it happened? Her powers.
In all honesty, Dovewing could have put her powers to WAY more use than Ivypool did period. Dovewing could hear all the way into the freakin dark forest, that's insanely ridiculous. She could identify cats as well but also refused to say anything about them. If anything Dovewing would have made a better spy, and be in less danger than Ivypool. But no. She, just like Jay and Lion, convinced Ivypool to go back to that horrid place even when she initially didn't want to. Personally to me that's just a huge plot hole in all this.
On the other hand Ivypool, is the underdog, there is something called underdog effect, look it up if you want. But humans, majorly, will instinctively support underdogs, characters at a disadvantage, hence Ivypool. She had to work hard to where she got to now, she didn't have any powers, what many view as cheats or shortcuts, no she had to climb from the bottom up, while also living in her sister's shadow. Ivypool also has a more adamant and confident nature, but inside suffers from PTSD, and other mental issues. Ivypool is seen as a more relatable character to viewers, I mean many people have siblings, many people have superiority complexes, and people like me also have PTSD.
And then there's what both of these characters were mostly focused around. Again, I'm not trying to hate on either character here, this is just my blatant criticism. Dovewing, from the fandom pov, is mostly remembered by her troublesome romances, and replacing Hollyleaf in the original 3. I'm not even kidding with this either, these are the two things she's mostly known by. Either her tom issues, or the fact that some people believe she stole Hollyleaf's spot in the prophecy. Well, neither of these are really far from the truth either. Dovewing, since her big journey to the Beaver damn, as an apprentice, was wrapped up in love issues, because that's when she met Tigerheart. Then they continued to meet over and over in secret, things escalated when Bumblestripe was added to the mix, add that to the prophecy drama, her relationship with her sister, and her whining(I get it she was young and didn't have much of a say in that whole destiny bizz), she just didn't become very likable in comparison to Ivypool. I mean if you got to 10 people and ask them how many times two guys have fought over them, I doubt you'd get more than 1, or lucky to get 2. Or what about the powers? Not very relative either. The only thing possibly relative with her is being under pressure? But she had choices, and Ivypool also experienced being under pressure, just way worst conditions. And the Hollyleaf thing? The Erins couldn't come up with a power, but they still needed to finish the prophecy, lol. And in between the book series, they had plenty of time to figure it out eventually, apparently. It's hard for people not to really view this a certain way tbh.
On the other hand Ivypool is mostly known for being a Dark Forest trainee, and being Dovewing's shadow when it comes to the fandom. A lot of people actually initially hated Ivypool, however the tabled eventually turned in her favor when it came to her and Dovewing. One scene that really bugged me was when Blossompaw blatantly compared her to Dovepaw, and insulted her skills. The senior warriors would always talk about her, and invite her to join the convos, meanwhile Ivypaw was left behind. The other flipping apprentices practically worshipped her, seeing her as a big hero, etc. Then there's Ivypaw, left in the background. From the start she just wanted to be with her sister, they did promise to do everything together. Dovewing had been lying to her sister this whole time, even though Dovewing wasn't at fault, no she wasn't, that still doesn't change that from Ivypool's pov she still felt left behind, and Dove was still lying to her. Dovewing at least found out about Ivypool being in the Dark Forest on her own, but Dovewing didn't tell her about her powers until much later on. What bugged me is Dovewing's hypocrisy as well, she was saying Ivypool was betraying her clan, meanwhile she was out meeting Tigerheart, she even had the gall to think that Ivypool wanted Tiger as her mate when they got into an argument once. She also went into denial about Tigerheart being a DF trainee. Yes both sisters are at wrong for arguing, but Dovewing can not have her cake and eat it too, how does she expect her sister to be a loyal cat if she herself wasn't either?
Both of these she-cats have a lot of flaws, yes, but Ivypool just seems more understandable, relatable, and imo a better well rounded character. She shows development earlier than Dovewing, who doesn't show that until much later on. And don't get me wrong, I'd defend Dove in a heartbeat in Bumble/Tiger related threads, but when it comes to the two sisters, I have to side with Ivypool on this. No Ivypool wasn't the best sister, but imo she is the better cat. This doesn't mean you're not allowed to like Dovewing and dislike Ivypool, that's your own opinion and it's up to you really.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 8:13:31 GMT -5
I don't really get why people complain about Dovewing's powers. They are actually a part of her. She's had them since birth. And Ivypool wouldn't be less safe if Dovewing spied for her, it wouldn't have made a difference because Ivypool didn't want to be there anyway, and besides being a spy is Ivy's job not Dove's.
Dovewing has had her powers since birth so of course it is natural when she flipped out about using them or used them for everything else.
Ivypool is also poorly written, not just Dovewing, with a cliché plot about being jealous, and whining about someone's popularity and only ending up digging a deeper hole for herself. Ivyfool really is a fool for believing in Tigerstar. Not like any of the others like Lionblaze were no better, either, who believed him. She cared that Dovewing was popular and wanted to be popular too so she let her jealousy get the best of herself. It was damn annoying, immature, and bratty. I don't like or care for popularity and that's all Ivypool cared about because her sister kept getting all of the attention. Her life wasn't exactly hard by the sounds of it, she was still loved by her family, she was ignored that one time? Please... others have had it harder than Ivypool (like Crookedstar who was abused by his own MOTHER) and yet they didn't let their jealousy consume themselves and completely argue or shine about everything.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 8:16:21 GMT -5
Ivypool had no reason to whine in the first place. She just had your cliché plot about being jealous of your siblings, which makes it easy to write about for the Erins, and ended up getting into a bigger hole herself by nearly getting killed in the Dark Forest.
Not like Dovewing was written the best either. Both sisters are terribly written.
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 20, 2016 13:59:39 GMT -5
Ivypool had no reason to whine in the first place. She just had your cliché plot about being jealous of your siblings, which makes it easy to write about for the Erins, and ended up getting into a bigger hole herself by nearly getting killed in the Dark Forest. Not like Dovewing was written the best either. Both sisters are terribly written. I won't argue with that. It is true that the quality of warriors is getting worse and worse, and the worst was at the point of OOTS.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 14:27:29 GMT -5
Ivypool had no reason to whine in the first place. She just had your cliché plot about being jealous of your siblings, which makes it easy to write about for the Erins, and ended up getting into a bigger hole herself by nearly getting killed in the Dark Forest. Not like Dovewing was written the best either. Both sisters are terribly written. I won't argue with that. It is true that the quality of warriors is getting worse and worse, and the worst was at the point of OOTS. Which is why I believe ALL characters are pretty poorly written, even Dovewing even though she's my favorite. Dovewing: whined about the prophecy and focused on love life Ivypool: whined about popularity and not getting enough attention Lionblaze: wouldn't stop bombarding Ivypool about spying or Dovewing about her powers Jayfeather: Had an unhealthy obsession over the stick and the prophecy, forcing Dovewing to accept it and Ivypool to become a spy when they didn't want to Cinderheart: whined about being reincarnated Briarlight: never dies Millie: abusive mother Graystripe: neglectful father Breezepelt: a fool who believes in murderers Really, Hollyleaf was the only character that was decent and had great development. OotS completely ruined great characters, but I am fine with how Hollyleaf came out.
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Post by Sablemoon on Oct 20, 2016 14:42:01 GMT -5
As stated here, Ivypool was hesitant to spill the beans, because she didn't want to falsely condemn her own Clanmates, her friend, and her father. Obviously, this decision was extremely risky, but it was also understandable. Heck, Jayfeather even defended her position! In my opinion, Ivypool shouldn't have held back so much information, but her motivations and reasons were understandable and valid. Not to mention that this is Lionblaze we're talking about; if he knew right then and there which of his Clanmates were training in the DF, who knows how violent he could've gotten out of sheer anger?
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 20, 2016 14:49:28 GMT -5
I won't argue with that. It is true that the quality of warriors is getting worse and worse, and the worst was at the point of OOTS. Which is why I believe ALL characters are pretty poorly written, even Dovewing even though she's my favorite. Dovewing: whined about the prophecy and focused on love life Ivypool: whined about popularity and not getting enough attention Lionblaze: wouldn't stop bombarding Ivypool about spying or Dovewing about her powers Jayfeather: Had an unhealthy obsession over the stick and the prophecy, forcing Dovewing to accept it and Ivypool to become a spy when they didn't want to Cinderheart: whined about being reincarnated Briarlight: never dies Millie: abusive mother Graystripe: neglectful father Breezepelt: a fool who believes in murderers Really, Hollyleaf was the only character that was decent and had great development. OotS completely ruined great characters, but I am fine with how Hollyleaf came out. That is exactly why I'm rewriting warriors on a wikia, which I might publish here one day.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 20, 2016 17:44:06 GMT -5
When you keep saying Ivypool's jealousy is cliche, correct me if I'm wrong, but was there ever an instance where siblings were jealous of each other before Ivy and Dove? And I mean pov main character wise. Because Squirrel and Leafpool were attached at the hip, and Alderheart and Sparkpelt's jealousy is after the matter of Ivy and Dove.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 20, 2016 17:45:22 GMT -5
As stated here, Ivypool was hesitant to spill the beans, because she didn't want to falsely condemn her own Clanmates, her friend, and her father. Obviously, this decision was extremely risky, but it was also understandable. Heck, Jayfeather even defended her position! In my opinion, Ivypool shouldn't have held back so much information, but her motivations and reasons were understandable and valid. Not to mention that this is Lionblaze we're talking about; if he knew right then and there which of his Clanmates were training in the DF, who knows how violent he could've gotten out of sheer anger? The Erins made it pretty clear that Lion had some nasty anger issues back in the day....
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