#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 12, 2016 23:06:29 GMT -5
Do you think Spottedleaf is a Mary Sue?
She seems to fit some of the traits, such as being considered very beautiful even by cats besides Firestar and being obsessed with said cat and his kin, but she doesn't get called out on this very often and her love for him is often treated like a tragic love story... even though she rarely knew Firestar. She's gotten angry, but this is also rare.
Not everyone likes her besides the villains, as proven with Sandstorm, but Sandstorm seems to have gotten over her jealousy (or at least became more tolerable of Spottedleaf after the confrontation in FQ).
She's often sweet to the point where it can come off as annoying, but is shown to be helpful even to cats who aren't related to Firestar, like Ravenpaw and Leafstar. Now, whether this is because they're friends with Firestar is questionable.
She wasn't a great warrior apprentice, but is mentioned to be a very talented medicine cat from a young age, was apparently forced to become a medicine cat due to StarClan's meddling, and died the first time thanks to Clawface.
Spottedleaf herself is shown to be jealous towards Sandstorm to the point where she admits that she wishes Sandstorm would disappear like dew and still pines after Firestar even after he told her he couldn't be in love with her memory anymore.
So, what do you guys think?
Keep in mind that not all Mary Sues are necessarily a bad thing. Batman and Superman as a few examples may be considered to be Gary Stues/Marty Stues while keeping both them and their stories interesting. Characters like Bella Swan, though... yeah, she's the very definition of a Mary Sue in every sense of the word.
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 12, 2016 23:16:35 GMT -5
Well, Mary Sues aren't always just perfect cats. If a cat is sweet and beautiful, she isn't nevessarily a sue. She doesn't have cool name, eye color or fur color, she doesn't have any powers, she isn't close to any main character really except for Firestar, and one of her major flaws are being "obsessive" and "clingey", and also getting herself killed twice. Another thing sues tend to have is being good at everything. She is just a talented medicine cat. And she sucks at fighting as we can see.
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Post by Sablemoon on Oct 12, 2016 23:18:08 GMT -5
I would count her as one. I really don't like her (hate her at times) because of how obsessive she is over Firestar. It feels like she just used Leafpool to get the Three, then dumped her once she was pregnant with the kits. Did she ever help or talk to Leafpool after that, like give her advice on what to do? Plus, after Firestar revealed to Sandstorm that she still visits him in his dreams in Firestar's Quest, it's atrocious how she says that they deserve to be together, then turns right around and whispers to Firestar of how she wished things could be different. (I can't remember her exact words) I know she said that, but wishing Sandstorm disappeared? When was this mentioned? o.o'
Overall, she's super annoying, clingy, and I'm not sad at all she faded in TLH. She probably would've jumped Firestar the moment he arrived in StarClan.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 12, 2016 23:24:33 GMT -5
I would count her as one. I really don't like her (hate her at times) because of how obsessive she is over Firestar. It feels like she just used Leafpool to get the Three, then dumped her once she was pregnant with the kits. Did she ever help or talk to Leafpool after that, like give her advice on what to do? Plus, after Firestar revealed to Sandstorm that she still visits him in his dreams in Firestar's Quest, it's atrocious how she says that they deserve to be together, then turns right around and whispers to Firestar of how she wished things could be different. (I can't remember her exact words) I know she said that, but wishing Sandstorm disappeared? When was this mentioned? o.o' Overall, she's super annoying, clingy, and I'm not sad at all she faded in TLH. She probably would've jumped Firestar the moment he arrived in StarClan. Her wishing that Sandstorm would vanish like dew is mentioned in her short play, Spottedleaf's Honest Answer. |
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Post by Sablemoon on Oct 12, 2016 23:29:10 GMT -5
I would count her as one. I really don't like her (hate her at times) because of how obsessive she is over Firestar. It feels like she just used Leafpool to get the Three, then dumped her once she was pregnant with the kits. Did she ever help or talk to Leafpool after that, like give her advice on what to do? Plus, after Firestar revealed to Sandstorm that she still visits him in his dreams in Firestar's Quest, it's atrocious how she says that they deserve to be together, then turns right around and whispers to Firestar of how she wished things could be different. (I can't remember her exact words) I know she said that, but wishing Sandstorm disappeared? When was this mentioned? o.o' Overall, she's super annoying, clingy, and I'm not sad at all she faded in TLH. She probably would've jumped Firestar the moment he arrived in StarClan. Her wishing that Sandstorm would vanish like dew is mentioned in her short play, Spottedleaf's Honest Answer. Wow. That's crazy. She's crazy. I've never read her novella before, and now I really don't feel like it if her obsession is all it's about. Is it? |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 12, 2016 23:36:33 GMT -5
Her wishing that Sandstorm would vanish like dew is mentioned in her short play, Spottedleaf's Honest Answer. Wow. That's crazy. She's crazy. I've never read her novella before, and now I really don't feel like it if her obsession is all it's about. Is it? Short play, actually. Her novella ( Spottedleaf's Heart) doesn't come out until next year (apparantly alongside Pinestar's and Thunderstar's for Legends of the Clans). But yeah, Spottedleaf's Honest Answer is basically her detailing her love for Firestar and she feels about him and Sandstorm. |
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Oct 13, 2016 12:35:11 GMT -5
I don't think she is. She has some traits such as being really pretty and smelling good, but she does has her major flaw, which is her obsession. Sure she isn't called out on it much, but that's because we don't her about her much from a POV other than Firestar and his kin. She has been said to be a good medicine cat, but she isn't so OP that she is unrealistically good at everything.
Plus, we didn't get to see her that much either to know who she is beside her Firestar obsession. We don't know any of her other flaws, because we don't know her. I don't want to say she is a sue before we get to see her personality without Firestar in her novella.
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Post by 𝕡𝕖𝕡𝕡𝕖𝕣𝕞𝕚𝕟𝕥 on Oct 13, 2016 14:12:45 GMT -5
Spottedleaf isn't a Sue, but she's close. She's oh so beautiful, and apparently smells great. One might pass this off as Firestar being an infatuated, unreliable narrator, but other protagonists frequently describe her as though she were a goddess. Spottedleaf is unfailingly loyal; this is supposed to be a positive trait, but it comes off as negative.
Spottedleaf can't move on. She thinks that she's entitled to Firestar's affection. . . but, why? She's dead, and they barely interacted. Spottedleaf is old enough to be Firestar's mother. She's clingy and jealous. I'm not sure if this is intentional on the Erin's part or not.
So no, Spottedleaf isn't a proper Mary Sue.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Oct 13, 2016 14:49:24 GMT -5
mary sue is a ******** term that shouldn't be used.
Even though Spottedleaf doesn't do it out of the most moral reasons, I think she is more helpful than most of Starclan. Also wishing Sandstorm would disappear is more akin to figurative language. Spottedleaf doesn't actually want Sandstorm to disappear. That's just her id talking. Her ego and super ego wouldn't let her enjoy Sandstrom leaving. She's not Ashfur. Being skilled at medicine is incredibly common for most medicine cats in this series so Spottedleaf is not an outlier. Shes annoying because we only ever see her through Firstar, Leafpool, and Jayfeather's point of view. Two of which grovel at her feet. Spottedleaf is pretty tolerable when we are around Jayfeather or with her Starclan friends because they don't idealize her. Jayfeather doesn't love her like Leafpool or Firestar do so he sees more than just perpetual good. Starclan doesn't have a lot of respect for her because they, like the erins and much of the older audience, see her actions as clingy and detrimental to Firestar.
I think a lot of us forget that the erins, particularly Vicky, don't have much respect for Spottedleaf. I think before the ultimate guide was released Vicky said in a round about way that she didn't think as highly of Spottedleaf's actions as the fans do. You even get this vibe in the other guides. This may seem odd to us because most people on this forum and on youtube hate spottedleaf for being clingy, but if you look at the places where you do find Spottedleaf fans, you find that they are the target demographic of the series. They are 8-12 year old's who aren't old enough to understand that being an obsessive lover is not desirable. The way Spottedleaf is written in the series for the most part, may be intended to be a little creepy.
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 14, 2016 7:41:06 GMT -5
mary sue is a ******** term that shouldn't be used. Even though Spottedleaf doesn't do it out of the most moral reasons, I think she is more helpful than most of Starclan. Also wishing Sandstorm would disappear is more akin to figurative language. Spottedleaf doesn't actually want Sandstorm to disappear. That's just her id talking. Her ego and super ego wouldn't let her enjoy Sandstrom leaving. She's not Ashfur. Being skilled at medicine is incredibly common for most medicine cats in this series so Spottedleaf is not an outlier. Shes annoying because we only ever see her through Firstar, Leafpool, and Jayfeather's point of view. Two of which grovel at her feet. Spottedleaf is pretty tolerable when we are around Jayfeather or with her Starclan friends because they don't idealize her. Jayfeather doesn't love her like Leafpool or Firestar do so he sees more than just perpetual good. Starclan doesn't have a lot of respect for her because they, like the erins and much of the older audience, see her actions as clingy and detrimental to Firestar. I think a lot of us forget that the erins, particularly Vicky, don't have much respect for Spottedleaf. I think before the ultimate guide was released Vicky said in a round about way that she didn't think as highly of Spottedleaf's actions as the fans do. You even get this vibe in the other guides. This may seem odd to us because most people on this forum and on youtube hate spottedleaf for being clingy, but if you look at the places where you do find Spottedleaf fans, you find that they are the target demographic of the series. They are 8-12 year old's who aren't old enough to understand that being an obsessive lover is not desirable. The way Spottedleaf is written in the series for the most part, may be intended to be a little creepy. ...Okay thanks for calling me 8 year old then Like this. I even admitted at several occasions that she is kind of creepy and clingey (even if you didn't see it). I don't really have any big reason for liking her, and honestly the guides picture many things differently than the original books. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I don't think you can say for sure that all Spottedleaf fans are little kids. May I point out that I hate how her character got ruined? I've read enough cringey or bad stories to know that some characters are brought in for something and nothing else, such as Spottedleaf, or Hollykit, Larchkit and Snowkit. But mostly Spottedleaf since she is adult cat and should have some development. But nah, Erins rather make her a cringey stalker rather than giving her some role and development. I don't even see the point of her being in love with Firestar. I believe that the fandom would be much fonder of her if she was simply not in live with Firestar at all and was just the helper there. And maybe then shipping JayXSpotted or FireXSpotted would come along, who knows? Knowing by the fandom's weird side. Anyways my point is, Erins did terrible job with case Spottedleaf, and that honestly ruined my picture of warriors forever (like many other things). Spottedleaf definetely isn't a minor character, yet she still has no development at all. This is one of the reasons I don't really like Vicky, because she made a blank character that is brought in simply for plot reasons and nothing else, given literally no development at all, and then pictures this blank character as obsessive. Now that I say it it sounds immature doesn't it? Something you would find in cringey fanfics. Not even mentioning how she made her so old on purpose. What was the point of it? And now after Spottedleaf is long dead, Vicky suddenly decides to make a whole book about her because she didn't have time to give her development in the original books, which is a horrible excuse btw, as she had literally 4 series for that. That is another thing you would find cringey if it was made by some ooga booga J.K. Rowling wannabe on the internet. I'm not expecting much from that book honestly, I'm genuienly (did I spell that right?) curious what Vicky came up with. Knowing her, her poor attempt to make character likeable will have the exact opposite effect. In my opinion, it would be much better if she was related to Sandstorm somehow and watched over Jayfeather and Leafpool because they were her kin. Like this: let's say she was a warrior that never actually appeared in the books alive but watched over kin in StarClan, because her daughter was Brindleface (who was Sandstorm's mother), and after she died, she decided to watch over her from StarClan. Then she watched over Sandkit/paw/storm, and decided she can't let her kin down like that and decided to watch over them. I think that would be much better idea. Lmao, my own pharagraph made me dislike Spottedleaf. |
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 14, 2016 10:59:53 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear. People hate Spottedleaf because her one role in the series is to be Firestar's obsessive lover. Her character practically revolves around that role and usually dictates how people feel about her. Most Spottedleaf fans I've met were 8-12 year olds who generally thought Sandstorm stole Firestar from Spottedleaf despite the fact Spottedleaf is dead. The point is that Spottedleaf may be a lesson in how not to conduct yourself around the people you love. Oh. Well I don't think she stole Firestar from Spottedleaf. I started liking Spottedleaf after she saved Sandstorm in TLH. |
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Oct 14, 2016 11:05:49 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear. People hate Spottedleaf because her one role in the series is to be Firestar's obsessive lover. Her character practically revolves around that role and usually dictates how people feel about her. Most Spottedleaf fans I've met were 8-12 year olds who generally thought Sandstorm stole Firestar from Spottedleaf despite the fact Spottedleaf is dead. The point is that Spottedleaf may be a lesson in how not to conduct yourself around the people you love. Oh. Well I don't think she stole Firestar from Spottedleaf. I started liking Spottedleaf after she saved Sandstorm in TLH. I don't hate Spottedleaf. I started the series in power of three and Spottedleaf was tolerable in that arc. When I finally read the first three books I was shocked by how creepy Spottedleaf was and by how little time she actually spent with Firestar. I can see why most people wouldn't forgive that due to how static she is. |
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Post by pastelpills on Oct 14, 2016 11:19:57 GMT -5
Oh. Well I don't think she stole Firestar from Spottedleaf. I started liking Spottedleaf after she saved Sandstorm in TLH. I don't hate Spottedleaf. I started the series in power of three and Spottedleaf was tolerable in that arc. When I finally read the first three books I was shocked by how creepy Spottedleaf was and by how little time she actually spent with Firestar. I can see why most people wouldn't forgive that due to how static she is. Yeah, I agree with that.
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