Sorry, BlackxRusset fans...

Nightwing is older than snowbird :/

how is that possible. snowbird didn't show up till outcast and nightwing was in the os

Snowbird must be the Willowpelt of Shadowclan.

heh, Sowbird must be everyone's mom

she is actually female Jake

She also showed up in Starlight, where she fell off a cliff and broke her neck.

Yeah I know. I was just referring to her first appearance only. Either way, it's a shame she died, but at least she's been reunited with her brother and son.

1. "I doubt it would be seen as a moment of weakness for the Clan because the leader or deputy would still be able to speak with and strategize with her Clan, and if she had kits, the Clan would be more protective of their territory knowing that a high ranked cat in their Clan had kittens." She can speak with the clan, that is not the same as leading them into a bloody battle. Do you really think they're going to fight the same way knowing their leader isn't even leading them into a fight? That they're risking their lives for her even though she won't risk her life for them because she is caring for her kits? These questions barely come up or don't at all with a Tom or a She-cat who isn't nursing being leader. The clan would be just as protective if any cat was nursing, it doesn't matter if a high ranked one is doing it or not. At least one cat is almost always pregnant/nursing at some time during a clan's operation, nothing would change.

2. "And another thing, she wouldn't have to have all this extra stress of taking care of her kittens I've been hearing about because her ENTIRE CLAN is able to help her, and I see no reason why they'd opt out of such?" Here's a possible reason, the kits are half clan. That was Mapleshade's situation. They exiled her and her kittens from Thunderclan because of that. Also she shouldn't bet on the clan helping her with her job as a mother anyways. Also read my next point.

3. "They're a Clan, they're in a family and Clan mindset. They'd want to work together to help raise the kit and keep the kits safe.
" That's the ideal, not the reality. Cats have plotted to kill other cats in their clan many times, Fireheart was even shaky about if Bramblekit was evil.

4. "You're telling me that it's her job to guide them, but you're also telling me it's her job to tell them who and who not to be around. Guidance isn't telling someone what to do, it's advising them on what they should do, and trying to help them form their own opinions. That's exactly what the mother should do. She shouldn't be separating her kittens from specific cats, but letting them know how they are, and trying to help them learn to work with others and cooperate in the Clan system that they live in." We are talking about kittens here. This isn't some moral dilemma on whether cats should have free choice in their lives, they have that later. Not when they're vulnerable and impressionable young kits who were just born a few moons ago. They need to be shown what is right or wrong. Crookedkit left camp, it was his choice, I don't think his mother would have approved. What happened to him? His jaw was broken. That's just one of the examples of why you shouldn't let kits decide what they can and can't do. You allow the mother to do that.

5. "These cats are, again, a CLAN, a FAMILY, that works together." same thing as point three.

6. "A mother should NOT be trying to dictate who exactly her child is around, but she should implore them to be around all the cats in the Clan, and learn to work with all of them the best they can, and not just be around her." Who are you to say this? The mother is the one who decides right and wrong, she's the parent. If she wants, the father also decides things for the kits.

7. "She should be encouraging them to be social with their Clan, not nitpicking who they're around just because "oh, I don't really like that one cat. My kit should never talk to him!" when the kit is likely to talk to this cat sometime in the end." Yes, when the kit isn't a kit anymore, when he or she can handle the world. Not when they're under six moons old, they aren't ready to be thrown out into the world.

8. "You've misunderstood me at the end there. I wasn't talking about a mother always being around her kittens, I was talking about a mother forcing her kitten to be around specific cats." OK, it wasn't clear to me. She should still be able to decide what her kittens do. If they're full grown, her sons or daughters can take her advice or refuse it if they want but, they're not old enough to decide on their own yet if they're still kittens.

9. "Why is it her job to always be around her kittens? No mother has to constantly be by her child, it'd most likely bother the child more than anything." She's the mother, it is her job to constantly take care of her kits, they're infants. Kittens need constant attention, everyone who I've ever spoken to who has taken care of one attests to that.

10. "That's why while the child plays or sleeps, she can attend to other duties that she decides to do." Like how Crookedkit decided to play without his mother watching on the stepping stones? Mothers have to protect their kits, this replaces all of their old requirements until the kits grow up.

1. That's untrue, morale is always higher when being led by a leader who rallies his followers, and those followers are more coordinated in battle when being ordered what to do. This principle applies to the clans and things like Bloodclan (Look at what happened to them without Scourge, that's direct proof that you're wrong, unless, you've never read The Darkest Hour?). As I said, which you didn't care to mention, yes, they are more willing to fight for the young but there are almost always young cats in the clans, a leader having a new litter would not be a special case where they would fight harder for reasons I have already mentioned and I will mention again if you need me to.

2. "You are giving me "what-if" situations over and over again, not the entirely likely outcomes." They are not "what-if" situations, they did happen in the books. You are wrong about this.

3. "If they're half-clan, it's the mother's own problem for deciding to break the Code." You asked me a for a case where they would opt-out of taking care of a mother and kits, I gave you one. "It IS the reality. Being in a Clan is like being in a household, just with a bunch more people. Not everyone is going to get along for sure, but that doesn't mean every time there's going to be someone plotting to murder someone in the family." Oh, except for Tigerstar, Darkstripe, Hawkfrost, Mudclaw, etc. I could go on. There have been more than enough examples to prove you wrong that it's just, "like being in a household" it's naive to believe that. "And why would you imply this person even plot to kill the children in their Clan, when they know that these children are the future of it?" Why don't you ask Darkstripe that? Darkstripe tried to kill a kit, that's proof that some cats can and will do it. "One bad person in a family doesn't mean the whole family is defunct.
" You're saying mothers should risk kits around cats like those I listed? I hope not.

4. It is her choice to accept help or refuse it, it may be silly to you but, it's the mother's choice. You are arguing that she is silly to have that choice.

5. Nothing for five?

6. I have said already that things change when they are older. You said they could make these decisions with minimal input from the mother when they were kittens, that is dangerous and I gave Crookedkit as an example. You're arguing from a child's point of view, not a mother's.

7. "What? So this child is never going to talk to their Clanmates until they're an apprentice?" Look at what you said, look at what I said, and maybe you'll understand that I never even implied that. I left it for a mother to decide what was right.

8. "Not necessarily. That means she decides when they play, who they talk to. Telling them when to sleep is fine, but controlling them in everything they do until they're an apprentice? That's NOT good parenting in a Clan.
" And? What are you going to do, take the kit away from the mother? It is the mother's (and father's if the she-cat wants that) responsibility to care for her child and deem what is best for him or her. It's no one else's decision. There will always be bad parents and good parents, but what makes them parents is that they parent the child. They can let others help, I have no problem with that, but if they don't want the help, they shouldn't be seen as "silly" or "not good parents". Something you've said you would see them as.

9. "Constantly? So say if she wasn't in a Clan-" Woah, who has been the one arguing we're talking about clan cats this whole time? It's been you. "And in a Clan, the kitten isn't going to want to be coddled when they want to play with their siblings or friends, and if she wants to stay in camp and watch them, she's welcome to. It doesn't mean she can't go out and hunt while someone else in the camp watches them for her." This was brought up in Moth Flight's Vision too and it shows why what you're saying isn't good for the kit, I can point you to the scene if you want.

10. "It's not her fault that her sons escaped the eyes of any cat in camp. It is her fault that she failed to watch them if she was in camp herself or didn't ask someone else to keep a closer eye on them though." She let her kits play without watching them, exactly what you said mothers could do. Proof: "That's why while the child plays or sleeps, she can attend to other duties that she decides to do." Next, "It's just an unlucky situation, not proof that the mother needs to constantly be watching her child when cats in camp can, too. She just has to let them know before leaving camp." It was still an actual situation that happened and would have been prevented had Rainflower been watching them in camp. That means it is proof.

Did I ever say they could never win without a leader? No, I didn't. My point still stands, morale is higher when being lead by a leader, that doesn't mean they can't win without one. So I'm not wrong about this.

If you agree that they can still win then you don't need to argue it.

ALSO, SORRY FOR FILLING YOUR THREAD WITH MY ENDLESS DEBATING, MOTHFLIGHT! I just can't stop ;p

And yet if they can still win without a leader, they aren't so weakened at all. If they know they are protecting their leader, I would feel that they are just as willing to fight as they would be to fight alongside their leader. They're also helping keep their Clan strong another day.

1. "if they are being led into battle, the cat leading them if their leader." Obviously, but they aren't the clan leader (who is also usually one of the best fighters). "They should feel proud to be fighting for their clan." Of course, but if their leader isn't willing to fight, their will to risk their lives won't be as high. He or she (whoever the leader is) has to lead by example. "If they'll be just as excited to fight for their leader's kits as normal kits, then I don't see the problem here?" This was the problem: "the Clan would be more protective of their territory knowing that a high ranked cat in their Clan had kittens. They'd be more likely to defend the Clan" You implied that the leader's kits meant more to the normal cats in the clan, I guess you didn't mean that but it's how it looks.

2. "You've pulled excuses about cats that don't have the jobs deputies and leaders do. They don't support the claim at all because neither of them were a leader or deputy. I realise it was silly of me to argue this in the first place, woops." They weren't excuses after we shifted focus, I agree though, we should get back to talking specifically about deputies and leaders.

3. "So we get a small amount of cats that go against certain cats in their Clan and immediately the Clan is not a family anymore?" Well I mean, if you would consider someone who did that, your family... "There's not a big chance that every cat is like Darkstripe, as while he was very wrong in what he did, he didn't just try to kill her for the lol's." You asked for a reason why a cat would kill a kit, whatever reason Darkstripe had was good enough for that (in his mind). That's why I mentioned him.

4. Yes, but she should surely be the one to determine whether and when she needs help? They are her kits after all? Even if you might think she needs a break, she should be the one to decide it. Forcing the mother to let someone else take care of the kits when she doesn't want that is wrong? Or is it right? What are you advocating for?

6. "But I have been talking about when they're older kittens? Not 1-2 moons, I'm talking 3-6 moons. They have a mind of their own and even with a mother's input they will do what they want to do in the end." It wasn't clear what age we were talking about, just "kittens" which the clans assume to be under 6 moons. The mother should still try to get as much influence as possible into her kits (knowing that some of it will be lost on them). Just because something is eventually going to happen doesn't mean you have to accept it as inevitable and give up on your efforts, I could go into this but it's stupid arguing over the future because you can't predict it, you can only prepare for it.

7. You said this: "She should be encouraging them to be social with their Clan, not nitpicking who they're around just because "oh, I don't really like that one cat. My kit should never talk to him!" when the kit is likely to talk to this cat sometime in the end." then I said this: " Yes, when the kit isn't a kit anymore, when he or she can handle the world. Not when they're under six moons old, they aren't ready to be thrown out into the world." Does it look like I implied this: "never going to talk to their Clanmates until they're an apprentice?"? I don't think so. By the world, I meant what the kit's mother deems dangerous (people have used that analogy before). Now, if every cat in the clan appeared dangerous to the mother, it would be right to protect the kits against her clanmates wouldn't it? You said something narrower: "oh, I don't really like that one cat. My kit should never talk to him!" I thought you would assume I was still talking about things on an individual bases instead of meaning every cat in the clan. Hope I cleared that up! (and didn't make it any harder to understand...)

8. "So you think it is okay for a child to be controlled by their mother in literally everything? That's not very good or healthy, I'm afraid. A child deserves at least some freedom." And if the mother thinks the child is responsible enough to have that freedom, she will give it. I'm not saying mothers should be super overprotective, this whole time I've just been saying they should be able to choose the option of being super overprotective. A mother should be able to choose.

9. "Ooh yes, you got me there! I have been arguing about being in a Clan, it just seemed like YOU needed a new view of things because you aren't getting that the mother does not need to constantly be around and in her kitten's space." I get that it might be better for a mother to allow a kit to be adventurous in some situations, I'm saying the mother should be allowed to judge for themselves if that's the case. Again, it's her choice.

10. "I'm saying if she is in camp she SHOULD be watching her kid if she isn't assigning patrols, and even doing that takes a minute or two at most from what i've read." She won't be able to go on patrols, in other words, the clan is still hampered. "If she's not in camp she should be asking a cat or the cats in camp to keep an eye on them." This would also be burdening the clan since you are taking a potential cat that could be patrolling or doing regular warrior duties and ordering him or her to watch over the kits (this should be the mother's job) "All it's proving is that someone needs to be watching them, not just the mother, which I have already said I agree with that." Back to the thing I said already, a scene in Moth Flight's Vision shows that when a mother assigned cats to look after her kits, they didn't do a good job at it. Queens should be allowed to have a short break but to suggest they resume or fulfill their normal duties and in place of themselves, allow another cat to take over care for the kits is what I've been arguing against. The mother should be caring for the kits until they are six moons old.

Only stuff that would involve a queen that is a potential deputy or leader now that the discussion is cleared up?

Well tell me what I was wrong about, please. You aren't specifying it and just keep saying I'm wrong. (I'm going to reuse this because it still backs up my main point) If The leader is assumed to be one of the best fighters in the clan, it directly increases the chances that a group of cats will lose a battle if they don't have a good fighter (who could disagree with that?), it also increases the chances they will lose if they don't have coordination, which leaders afford. Add onto this all that a leader who is leading an attack has nine lives (assuming a clan leader) and I think you can understand why I think it's more likely that a leaderless group will shatter. That's why they are weakened. -That's why it matters who leads them. Also, I haven't shamed anyone, why do you think that? I said this is why it shouldn't happen, there's nothing you can do after it happens except for accepting it. I explained why it isn't favorable for the clan to be lead by a Queen and why almost nothing is impacted if a tom (who is a father) is leading it.