Debate Me

Even though she's improved over the past couple of arcs, I just can't bring myself to like her. She was very annoying as an apprentice, and even as a warrior she irked me. The way she jumped to conclusions with Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost irritated me, as she supposedly loved this tom yet clearly didn't trust him. I thought of her as immature because of that.

I'm not a big Bramblestar fan, but I was a Brambleclaw fan. To see her play him like she did in POT made me dislike her even more, since it brings up the whole issue of her not trusting him again. He clearly loved her dearly, and I have a feeling he would have kept the secret because of that. Granted, he probably would have been pissed, but I think he would have helped Squirrelflight out of love and not approval, as he knew how much Leafpool meant to her.

What also ticked me off with Squirrelflight is how she assumed that Brambleclaw would just automatically accept her decision to lie for Leafpool and move on from it. She acted selfish when the secret was revealed, and acted as if she didn't even give a crap about Brambleclaw's feelings. She then spent the next 3-4 books moping around acting like she still deserved to be his mate and be forgiven without a shadow of a doubt. To top it all off, Brambleclaw forgave her and she didn't even truly, from-the-heart apologize to him. I see her as selfish and stuck-up, and that's why I don't like her. She's a good mother and a decent deputy, but as a character I see her as snobbish and irritating.

(Can I debate, or are you full?)

The Three had a right to be angry; imagine if you found out one day that your parents lied to you and you were actually the son or daughter of some other woman and a man who she shouldn't have been with for whatever reason. Yes, Leafpool was selfish, but she had more of a reason to mope around than Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight moped because she lost her mate, which was entirely her fault for being selfish and just assuming he'd be okay upon finding out about the truth. Leafpool made a mistake in having kits, yes, but she didn't have a choice about whether or not she could keep them. She had to lose them either way.

And as for Brambleclaw stepping down, that wouldn't have happened. Leafpool stepped down because she broke the code in two major ways and legally couldn't remain as ThunderClan's medicine cat without invoking the rage of the other Clans. Brambleclaw wouldn't have broken the code by keeping the secret; keeping secrets isn't against the warrior code.

I so agree with you about Squirrelflight

She and Bramble honestly shouldn't be mates. And certainly shouldn't have gotten back together

No problem.

So I get why so many people claim to hate Ashfur. They think of him as a jealous fool who couldn't get past his heartbreak. And while that's perhaps true, I see more to it than that.

I see him as the perfect villain; I see him as an underrated villain. Forget Tigerstar or Sol or Hawkfrost, this cat's the most well-written villain in the series, and it's a shame his flaws didn't get explored more.

He was a bitter, jealous individual who couldn't get past his lost love. He idealized himself as a perfect cat to make up for some kind of dissatisfaction, perhaps relating to his mother's death way back when. I think his perception of himself as "perfect" has a more deeply rooted meaning than just "he's arrogant". I'd like to do an in-depth analysis of what I think the roots of his perceived perfection are, but I'll spare you.

He couldn't understand why Squirrelflight thought of him as less suitable than Brambleclaw. He thought of Brambleclaw as a lying, traitorous individual, something which was established I believe when he ran off with Squirrelflight without telling anyone. His desire to be seen as perfect and accepted as such made it so he became obsessed with figuring out why Squirrelflight thought of him as less desirable. When he couldn't find that answer, he convinced himself that Squirrelflight was the one who was misguided, not him. This transformed his obsession into anger, which set him on the course to his death.

He became determined to get revenge on Squirrelflight for what he saw as an injustice done to him, and that lead him to, as he later admitted, plot with Hawkfrost against Firestar. When that failed, he began looking for other ways to hurt her. When she revealed the truth to him during the fire, it fueled his flame by making him think that he had been right- that she was a foolish liar who had mislead him. He became determined to reveal her terrible side to everyone, believing that he would be hailed as the hero he wanted to be if he did. This lead to his death, as he became so determined to expose the cat he had grown to hate that he neglected to even consider the possibility of inciting another cat's anger with his choice.

That, in a nutshell, is why he's my favorite villain of the series.

Why do you like Antpelt? We didn't really know much about him. Other than he was loyal to the Dark forest. He appeared in Mistystars omen he was aggressive toward the riverclan cats. What did he even do that he didn't deserve to go to Starclan. Maybe he went to the darkforest in his own freewill? He is a mystery for all I know.

What is your opinion of Tigerheart?

Ohhhh I'd love to hear why you put Ashfur on the list of cats you love! :3



(just to be safe, no, no I'm neither one of those fans who just feel sorry for him nor do I intend to argue against your opinion... I'd just like to hear it to see why others who don't just think he's a poor and innocent cat like him )

Talking from a writing perspective for a few minutes, having Brambleclaw keep the secret and be a part of it would have, in my opinion, opened him up to more character development than the route the Erins took. It could have lead to a big moment for him where he justified his actions with a speech or something pointing out that his Clanmates would have done the same had it been their mate and calling them out for treating his adopted children differently based solely on something they couldn't control.

Going back to the character himself, his character was no Hollyleaf. He wouldn't have gone off and blurted the truth out to Firestar or whomever; he didn't tell him about his training with Tigerstar, his meetings with Hawkfrost, etc. After TNP, he didn't seem crazy to prove his loyalty; he seemed to have a desire to earn it through hard work. I see him as the kind of cat who doesn't care about individual opinions about him so long as his Clan is safe and respected as a whole by the other Clans. I don't see him letting other cats' potential opinions stopping him from helping the cat he loved.

As for Squirrelflight, Lionblaze and Jayfeather had the right to be rude to her. She let them grow up living a lie, and it makes sense that they'd feel betrayed and bitter over it. She brought a lot of hardships to them through her mistake, which can't be forgiven overnight. I know she was trying to help Leafpool, but she had no reason to tell Ashfur that night on the cliff the truth. He saw for himself how much she genuinely cared for her adopted kits, so it'd be unlikely that he'd believe that she didn't care for them at all. Even if he did believe her, she didn't have to admit to the three that she was telling the truth. The truth should have died with her and Leafpool. She destroyed her own life, Leafpool's reputation, and the reputation of her kits by spitting out the truth without reason.

I've never been able to like her after what she did after Flametail's death. I get that she was grieving, but that was too over the top. She was clearly trying to stir up trouble because for whatever reason she didn't like Jayfeather. She wasn't doing it for Flametail; she was doing it for her. She wanted to start trouble, and she kept it going for way too long. She had no need to fire those accusations, especially without talking to her own leader first.