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Post by Kibui on Sept 23, 2016 16:53:20 GMT -5
Even if we leave out the explanations given by Su / Vicky for why Brightflower's (and for that matter Lilywhisker's as well) residence is the Dark Forest, have any of you even considered that there might be a simple reason behind that?
I'm talking about the possibility that they could also have been lured there by other Dark Forest members because they were so unhappy of their injuries/the pain of having their last litter of kits killed by your own kin. Being that heartbroken and frustrated would make them extremely easy targets for fake promises. Crookedstar's Promise clearly shows that cats in the Dark Forest have worked together before Tigerstar and Brokenstar started organizing an army. (Remember Silverhawk and Shredtail training Thistleclaw?)
What could also be a reason is that those cats might have wanted to be there. And before you shake your head in irritation let me explain: None of those ever had a point of view in any of the books. We. don't. know. how. they're. ticking. Or what they were thinking for that matter. Sure we can observe how they behave and talk to others. But all that can be faked, can hide their true emotions. We only see them from the point of view of other cats and that point of view can change drastically - just take Hawkheart for example. He's shown as brutal and mean in Bluestar's Prophecy but as a very efficent and rational medicine cat in Tallstar's Revenge. Or another example: Clawface - to Fireheart/star he's the bad guy, the brutal supporter of Brokenstar and doesn't even shy away from killing. Yellowfang, however, saw a caring, even if rough, cat behind him who is very protective of his brother.
So what I'm trying to say is, please think about the decisions Vicky makes, before you rant about it. More often than not, Su even provides you a neat little backstory as to why this cat got chosen to be in the Dark Forest, or why that cat ist the father of those kits.
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Post by Ligerfrost on Sept 23, 2016 16:57:20 GMT -5
I don't know about Lilywhisker but we know next to nothing about Brightflower.
We only know what she was like BEFORE her second litter was killed. We know nothing about what happened with her after Yellowfang is exiled in Yellowfang's Secret and in Into the Wild. I mentioned that her situation is similar to Mapleshade and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. That she was willing to kill Yellowfang if she ever saw her again and that she might have been one of the warriors Brokenstar took to drive out WindClan and while there she might have killed cats during that attack and if she did whose to say she did it simply because she was told to do it? She could have done it to make WindClan intentionally suffer.
She learned the truth but who says she accepted it? She could have blamed StarClan and still felt Yellowfang was responsible for not saving her kits.
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Post by kinkajou on Sept 23, 2016 17:00:53 GMT -5
I just want to know what terrible things they've done besides being sad about their kits dying/breaking their leg
Then I'll stop ranting. Once we get an actual reason
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Post by Ligerfrost on Sept 23, 2016 17:10:52 GMT -5
I just find it pointless to rant about it.
I mean it's fair to rant about Ashfur because we've seen enough about Ashfur to say whether he deserved or didn't deserve the Dark Forest.
Apparently plans are in effect to give us an explanation for them being apart of the Dark Forest. So why are we ranting about something that we are going to get some kind of explanation for? We've never seen these cats point of view.
While Lilywhisker seems strange it could be she's bitter that tunneling wasn't ended before she got injured and was looked on in pity for the rest of her life. Called a fool by her Clanmates for wanting to be a tunneler and for the blatant disrespect feom her Clan.
Lilywhisker may have been nice to Tallstar but that doesn't mean she was happy or not bitter about herself or not have been tempted by the power of the Dark Forest. TO have something she didn't have in her Clan.
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Post by Kibui on Sept 23, 2016 17:40:32 GMT -5
I just want to know what terrible things they've done besides being sad about their kits dying/breaking their leg Then I'll stop ranting. Once we get an actual reason So, what I get from what you're saying is basically: "I don't accept them being in the Dark Forest because it's not a reason I like." At least that's what I get from it, sorry if that's not the case. Also, didn't Antpelt prove to you that "doing really bad things" is not a 'requirement' to join the Dark Forest? Antpelt never did anything bad as far as we know except training in the Dark Forest and he kind of regretted doing that at first shortly after his death. Yet Crookedstar also trained in the Dark Forest and he's in StarClan. Plus, who are we - or StarClan, or what/whoever - to judge which cats deserve to get to StarClan or what actions are bad enough to justify them going to the Dark Forest. That'd be kind of arrogant if you asked me --- LigerfrostOn a different note, I'm absolutely fine with Ashfur being in StarClan. Remember Hollyleaf actually killed in cold blood for selfish reasons (she didn't want the other Clans and her clanmates to think she was inferior to them because she wasn't clanborn [ that was what she thought before she knew who her real parents were]). Ashfur - while yes indeed he tried to kill others - never actually murdered somebody. Yes, sure, he was also about to betray his Clan with his actions, but the point is he didn't do it with the intention of acting disloyal to his Clan - that was just something that would automatically go along with it. Does it justify him wanting to kill others with the goal of hurting someone? No, but if someone like Hollyleaf, who killed in cold blood for selfish reasons and wasn't even brave enough to admit her crimes when getting an alibi she didn't even ask for and was cowardly enough to just accept it, is in StarClan, then so should Ashfur be. Ashfur, unlike Hollyleaf, just didn't get the chance to show if he'd make amends (or not, although this is unlikely because otherwise he'd be in the Dark Forest). In short: I think what decides where a cat should go after it dies is the subconsciousness of the cat itself. It's not necassarily something the cat decides for itself and there's definitely no one (within the universe of Warriors) that decides that for them. Kind of like walking along a path that either leads to the DF or SC, without the cat knowing it beforehand |
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Post by kinkajou on Sept 23, 2016 18:26:18 GMT -5
I just want to know what terrible things they've done besides being sad about their kits dying/breaking their leg Then I'll stop ranting. Once we get an actual reason So, what I get from what you're saying is basically: "I don't accept them being in the Dark Forest because it's not a reason I like." At least that's what I get from it, sorry if that's not the case. Also, didn't Antpelt prove to you that "doing really bad things" is not a 'requirement' to join the Dark Forest? Antpelt never did anything bad as far as we know except training in the Dark Forest and he kind of regretted doing that at first shortly after his death. Yet Crookedstar also trained in the Dark Forest and he's in StarClan. Plus, who are we - or StarClan, or what/whoever - to judge which cats deserve to get to StarClan or what actions are bad enough to justify them going to the Dark Forest. That'd be kind of arrogant if you asked me Pretty much tbh Antpelt wasn't forced to go to the dark forest. He chose to. I think he went to StarClan but felt more "at home" in the df, so he went and stayed there. I guess that could've happened to Brightflower and Lilyshisker, but idk it just doesn't feel right...Maybe because they're kinda old so they should know better? The df cats went after apprentices and young warriors after all Honestly, with what we know about them right now, using the same logic Ashfur, Rainflower, Hollyleaf, and lots of other cats would be in the dark forest Im hoping we get a guide thingy or something that fully explains the backstories of the df cats |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 22:01:06 GMT -5
After Antpelt I completely gave up on logic for the dark forest. Anyone can go there for any possible reason.
I still can't forget Darkstripe though. He was obviously upset about being in the Dark Forest, and wanted to be in StarClan. Yet he was stuck there cause he was evil and that was that.
So though I get anything can happen afterlife wise, it still troubles me that it was pretty obvious in the begging that you didn't choose where to go, and once you were there you couldn't leave. I honestly don't care enough by now to actively protest, but I'm still bothered by the change in policy and it just looks lazy to me. I don't think I can ever get rid of that.
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Post by Cloudshadow on Sept 26, 2016 6:05:42 GMT -5
What if Antpelt was lead to the DF by his mentor or someone? They may have gotten to him first or been more persuasive and Antpelt's thing about being more comfortable there was just a cover up.
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Post by ๐ก๐๐ก๐ก๐๐ฃ๐๐๐๐ฅ on Sept 26, 2016 9:45:58 GMT -5
If Su of all people can make things canon, then anyone can. Therefore, I'm going to un-canonize her claims, because they're ridiculous. End of story.
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Post by Kibui on Sept 26, 2016 9:59:27 GMT -5
If Su of all people can make things canon, then anyone can. Therefore, I'm going to un-canonize her claims, because they're ridiculous. End of story. Ah, then please do tell me where Victoria Holmes announced you as one of her helping hands Also, I hope you do realize that that most of "Su's" claims actually come from Vicky herself and Su just posts them for her (like the one for the afterlife residences), so the claims are actually by Vicky herself  |
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Post by ๐ก๐๐ก๐ก๐๐ฃ๐๐๐๐ฅ on Sept 26, 2016 11:47:57 GMT -5
If Su of all people can make things canon, then anyone can. Therefore, I'm going to un-canonize her claims, because they're ridiculous. End of story. Ah, then please do tell me where Victoria Holmes announced you as one of her helping hands Also, I hope you do realize that that most of "Su's" claims actually come from Vicky herself and Su just posts them for her (like the one for the afterlife residences), so the claims are actually by Vicky herself That's what I mean; Vicky can't expect us to take these claims seriously unless she announces them herself. Having some promoted fan do this for her doesn't count. My point is, it's ridiculous for these cats to be in the dark forest for no reason, especially while Ashfur is in StarClan. I know Su attempted to provide reasons, but those reasons are too far fetched to be taken seriously. The theory about them being lured there, while a good theory, isn't viable until it's confirmed by one of the erins. Until then, the confirmation about their residence is ridiculous, unfair, and warps canon too much to be taken seriously. |
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Post by mEmE on Sept 26, 2016 12:05:44 GMT -5
Jesus Christ, can we just put this aside now? This has been flaming for at least a week now and honestly, it's beating a dead horse now.
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Post by Uะผะฒัแด on Sept 26, 2016 17:11:11 GMT -5
I don't think this is much of a thing to argue about. So what we don't know the reason? We don't know why Snowtuft, Silverhawk, or Maggottail are there either. For all we know they can be saving their stories for a novella.
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Post by Cloudshadow on Sept 27, 2016 3:25:17 GMT -5
Jesus Christ, can we just put this aside now? This has been flaming for at least a week now and honestly, it's beating a dead horse now. The poor horse  |
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