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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 19, 2016 15:27:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I made this after reading that hunting thread.
Let me start off with: This will cover everything. Domestic, farm and wildlife and how they're all treated.
Farm animals: A lot are raised for slaughter, it's true. Sadly enough there's nothing for it or to replace it because humans are omnivores. We can't really survive on fruits or vegetables alone, but nothing but meat isn't good either. So the simple killing aspect of it will be forgone. I myself would die because I don't have the heart to kill an animal for food.
However. When you raise an animal that's to later be killed, why not let it live a good life? They are reported cases of farms animals being abused and nothing is done.
Some are kept in tight pens (See Dirtiest Jobs when Mike went to a pig farm in Las Vegas). The pigs are kept in such tight quarters it's inhumane. They are like 50 pigs per small pen with an even smaller trough for them to feed from. You can't tell me all those pigs are decently feed when they're fighting to get into the front of the line. Would it really be that expensive to expand the pens (with or without the same cheap material used to make it) so they at least have leg room?
I know McDonald's had a controversy over how their meat suppliers treat the animals.
Then there are some chicken farms where chicks are literally put onto a conveyor belt. The female hens are kept in again, small cages, even if cleaner, where they can't walk around. And the company that was doing this with all the automated machines was surely not poor in any way. Now not all companies do this, but I don't believe those who claim they give a good life to them simply because it's face value with no footage.
If any of you saw the TV episode where Sarah Palin (I think it was) was at a turkey farm. They literally took a live turkey, held it upside and put into some machine that was killing it in an excruciating manner.
As for cows (covering a really small portion). Branding still exists. You know, branding? Where they burn a symbol/number into a cow's flesh? How the hell is that not abuse?
Not to mention in a lot of states, if not all. All farm animals are literally labeled as property. Which is not okay. I mean, America used to have slaves, but a war broke out over that because slavery is 100% wrong. But do you know how owners of the slaves saw them? Property; nothing more or less. And that view is wrong, but why isn't it for animals?
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Domestic: These aren't pets, despite the general term of 'pet'. These are living, breathing, feeling beings. They are family members. So then why do shock collars and choke collars exist? Is it just that hard to train your dog? I mean, when people have a baby, they're patient. They potty train them, etc. And (if sane of mind) don't use harsh treatments like a choke collar. But then people get these collars as a way of controlling dogs because either: They didn't bother to ever train them or the dog truly hates something. That's understandable. A hassle sure, depending on what the dog reacts to, but people have fears too. Some are even really damn ridiculous, but those fears are crippling.
And then, when the animals are truly abused (where the law deems it) as in: Starved, dehydrated, beaten, shot, left outside all day/night in every weather condition possible, set on fire, splashed acid on, left in trash cans with the lid blocked. What sentence does the perpetrator get when they're finally caught? Maybe a 1k fine and maybe a month in jail. But if all of what I described happened to a human? They're going to get charged a lot more money with possible 10+ years to life in jail.
But what makes it different? Because humans are just humans? Sorry but that doesn't fly. Animals have rights like we do, but people choose not to care simply because animals don't have a voice that we can actually understand.
Then there's that 'sentient' test with mirrors for where people want to figure out if an animal is smart or not, where animals react funny to it or aggressively, but that's because they don't understand mirrors; because mirrors aren't something you'd just run across every day in the wild.
I mean, if you want a sentient test, humans have failed there. Back in the old days, when asylums existed and put away people for every possible reason (even a wife refusing her husband), a general surgeon had suggested a common practice of washing hands so germs don't spread but people refused that. Why?
Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis: Despite various publications of results where hand washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. Some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings.
Simply because there was 'no science' despite proof.
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I know there's animal testing. I know it's been used for vaccines/medicines so humans have a longer life. I also know it's used for other products like shampoo or maybe even make up. New science advances. But not only do these lab animals get treated like load of butterflies, some are even stolen.
Why should we test on animals? Because there will likely be bad ramification from it and humans shouldn't go through it? I believe that if the product you're going to make is for human use only, then it should be tested on willing humans. I don't care how similar a rat is to us, it's not deemed a homosapien. Not enough laws are in place against animal testing. I mean, it should at least be mandatory that animal testing isn't done for cosmetic items, but it's not. (Hence why some shampoo says not animal tested and others don't say that at all). Even if a company doesn't do it, that sort of label should be in place because how can we, the public, knows what goes on in their product making? We can't.
And even when a major place/company has done wrong and that's out for all to know. Nothing happens!
PETA kills AND steals animals, we know this. PETA stole a little girl's chihuahua FROM HER YARD, took it back and killed it. The father found out, sued the company but oh. A $500 dollar fine to a company that makes how much? Because that's all they're legally allowed to do to that company?
Then there's Harvard university, where a lot of lab monkeys died due to neglect. Harvard of all places. And nothing happened.
Then there was a K-9 cop who left his dog in his police car, where it died, due to heat stroke. But oh, policemen. Small slap on the wrists.
Yet again, if those animals were people the severity of the sentence given would be so much worse to the companies/people.
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Wildlife: Oh god where to start here. Well, people kill animals for sport, which should be illegal. If you're going to kill an animal, you better be doing it for food so none of it goes to waste rather than just cutting the head off and stuffing it as a goddamn trophy/stuffing the whole body for a trophy. "Lol, look at me in camo, with a night scope, fake deer, a deer call and deer feed. THIS IS SO FUN AND FAIR!"
Due to humans not knowing a thing about conservation combined with poaching. We have wiped out a lot of species with some on their way to extinction as we speak. We, the human species, have caused so much death, destruction and pollution to this world.
Don't give me "Oh animals will adapt." Do you know how long adaption takes? Millions if not billions of years, which these animals will not have on this self destructive path we're set on.
Due to habitat loss, a lot of animals encroach on human (Ha!) territories, and are usually killed for it.
Due to animals encroaching in place highly inhabited by humans, conflicts will and do incur. Some of it is just sheer ignorance on the human's part. Though when a wild animal does kill a person... Oh lord watch out. The animal has acquired a magical taste for human blood which somehow tastes different from all the other animals they've eaten. As if we aren't actually a legit food source to animals. Now we must hunt it and kill it because... logic? Honestly How to Train your Dragon said it perfectly. "They've killed hundreds of us!" "But we've killed thousands of them."
God forbid nature strikes back for a change. I mean, the loss of a loved one sucks. It does. But that's no reason for killing an animal for what it does; hunting for food. If you live in area, do your research on the animals around it. Some places have bears, other alligators, some have wolves (which btw, we almost killed completely for Yellowstone National park), other mountain lions. We /share/ the land with animals. But when you take away their food source and habitat, what do you think will happen?
Like in Montana. Farmers wanted more room for their cows and didn't want competition from the wild horses. So what did they do? They rounded up the horses and, instead of relocating, sent them to slaughter. And these are horses, ffs. Tell me, when was the last time a wild horse killed a person? I know accidents happen with 'tamed" (more like broken) horses. But a wild horse? That was there before you? What the actual h*ck.
Most of the human population is collectively worse than the black plague. We cause irreversible environmental damage and extinction on a whole species basis. Then where's there's like 100 left of said animal. There's no bringing that back. They'll be so inbred in a couple years that there's no point.
According to Bigcatrescue. Those white tigers and lions everyone loves? It's due to inbreeding. And there are a lot of them. They might be healthy, but continuing down that line will make it become worse.
Hunting and gun companies should be shut down because they give people the means for illegal poaching.
Animal attractions, like riding wild elephants in Thailand, should also but shut down. For it starts to wear down and deform the elephants. Something supposedly revered by them.
In some other cultures, animal parts are used for fake ass remedies. And nothing is done. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On a different note. What even gives people the right to use animals in war? I know young men used to be conscripted into the army. But that's changed. But we still basically do it to animals.
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Animals live on a 'eat or be eaten' basis, but they're full of life. It's just how nature went about it. Some babies are even abandoned from birth and with a little luck, do just well on their own. So if anything I see them more advance than ourselves. After all, show me a person born with heat sensing organs like the viper family or wings like birds with the ability to fly. To dig burrows, climb trees, navigate using the Earth's magnetic field without a compass.
Hell. Humans are animals too but we're so out of tune with nature and weather it's so hilariously awful.
We might have come a long way from castles and knights, but we're still suck in the medieval era when it comes to animals rights.
So in the end. What gives people the right to do what they do? What makes animals 'lesser' than us? Because I can't really see it. "We make buildings and technology." Yeah well, we also devote 20 or so years of our life to school when animals might just spend up to 10 years with their parent. Create inequality. Crippling debt, etc.
This likely just all comes down to: Cost (ha), cooperate greed and people who just plain don't care for animals. And for the lack of better term, socio/psychopaths. Who would abuse/inbreed/over breed and have animal fighting rings.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 19, 2016 15:34:03 GMT -5
me and my family are all big meat eaters (mmm), but we always make sure to buy from respectable providers.
that being said, i believe that animals are not on the same level as humans-- mostly because of religious and my own reasoning on the subject. i think it's important we take care of them properly, because God made us stewards of his creation, but if i had to choose between an animal or human's life, i will always (without hesitation) choose a human. i just don't think they're on the same level as us. so i see nothing wrong with "owning" animals or regarding them as property, so long as they are still treated with the respect all living things are owed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 15:38:41 GMT -5
right off the bat im gonna apologize for my response bc i only had the time to skim yours bc of length, so i'll respond sorta as a whole and also to one thing i saw in particular. if i totally missed the point tho just tell me lol
i think the #1 reason why animals are suffering so much is p simple actually, and its that animals dont have a sense of "rights" themselves. vaguely they do, but not near to the extent that people do of course, and its human nature to take advantage of that. if you look at the history of humanity, no ones really ACTUALLY given each other rights. it's always been fought for (civil rights movement, womens rights, you name it). if a group of people didnt fight for themselves they never wouldve gotten justice in the first place. and animals dont rly have the means to fight for themselves, they rely on a select few but that's just rly not enough. that's probably why things are also so horrifying in that regard, since they cant stick up for themselves its sorta the f'd up human instinct to take full advantage of that (knowingly or not).
also a second point (which is sorta ranodm but)
im not actually anti-shock collar. i think for aggressive dogs (and IF used correctly) it's actually necessary at times :/ it's not really a fun thing to back, but when you have a dog that has behavioral issues sometimes using a zap (only to snap them out of the situation, never to harm them or punish them) is the best method for assuring the safety of every1 around
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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 19, 2016 15:47:22 GMT -5
june "its that animals dont have a sense of "rights" themselves" I know animals don't know the concept of rights. Our intellect eclipses theirs, and that's precisely the point. They are but tools that serve us in any way we see fit, because we don't consider them to be our equals, and rightly so. Maybe we can call this "species-ism". I have yet to see an animal develop a language as complex as ours, art as complex as ours,, literature, philosophy, science, etc. Then again I have yet to see a human born with heat sensing organs. I have yet to see a human fly on their own. I have yet to see people withstand their body being split in half and survive. I have yet to see us survive toxic conditions/outer space without assistance. ( See water bears). I also have yet to see humans survive -20 degrees, completely freeze over and still come back to life.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 15:52:26 GMT -5
oh yeah im not necessarily debating w/ you (or purposefully implying that you didnt know animals didnt have a sense of rights, etc) it was just more of my view on it all !
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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 19, 2016 16:01:18 GMT -5
wait wait i have one thing to say: yes, humans have evolved to be omnivores, but these days you can take supplements and eat things besides meat (ie lentils, beans, tofu, etc) and still get everything you would need from meat. meat isnt necessary for health anymore and you can go without it, so why would you knowingly support the suffering of billions of animals when you could just... not do that? i know for some people its not possible to be vegan for various reasons (myself included, im just a vegetarian) but i think everyone should do their best to eliminate as many animal products from their life if they have the resources to do so Despite what other alternatives there are. I believe people will always eat meat. I tried being vegetarian myself. I quit after a month.
As far as animals raised for food : They deserve a fast and painless death if possible. They also shouldn't be abused or kept in terrible conditions.
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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 19, 2016 16:10:53 GMT -5
Only 3 responses.
I think people are quite imitated by the lengthy text. LOL
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 19, 2016 16:16:00 GMT -5
Some are kept in tight pens (See Dirtiest Jobs when Mike went to a pig farm in Las Vegas). The pigs are kept in such tight quarters it's inhumane. They are like 50 pigs per small pen with an even smaller trough for them to feed from. You can't tell me all those pigs are decently feed when they're fighting to get into the front of the line. Would it really be that expensive to expand the pens (with or without the same cheap material used to make it) so they at least have leg room? pigs actually enjoy being at close quarters with one another. that's why even in really pig, spacious pens, the pigs will all huddle together in one spot. but i agree that they should still be given space and not cramped. it should be noted that not all "branding" is hot. branding can also refer to "tattoos," freeze-branding, and ear tags. burn branding does hurt, but not for very long, and not as much as it might seem. cattle have very thick hides, and a good chunk of the actual burning is of the hair, not the skin. the burn doesn't go very deep at all. i mean make of it what you will, it could still be considered cruel, but i just wanted to clarify what is happening shock collars are commonly misinterpreted-- "shock" refers to the action of snapping out of a trance, not electricity. there is no electric shock happening there. shock collars release a high-pitched noise only dogs can hear. the sudden explained noise snaps them out of whatever frenzied state they might be in-- no pain or cruelty involved! it's like if you suddenly snapped your fingers in someone's ears. choke collars can be used cruelly by the unexperienced. however, professional trainers like my brother have explained the way they are meant to be used. they're commonly meant for thickset dogs, like bully breeds or stock dogs, who have very thick neck muscles. the prongs on choke collars doesn't actually dig into the throat like it would on us, so it doesn't cut off circulation unless the dog is self-inflicting (i.e. straining as far as possible in a frenzy, choosing to strangle themselves rather than give up their ravid state) a lot of animal cruelty cases are circumstances of negligence (i.e. unable to properly care for the animal, whether for physical or financial issues). these people aren't usually charged because they meant well and simply couldn't provide but animal cruelty is taken fairly seriously in court. i've seen enough animal cops episodes to know that lol also a lot of the time, the true abusers can't be found. we can't communicate with pets like we can with humans, so cops have no idea who left that one dog in a trash can. the perpetrator is simply unknown. i'm pretty sure that was probably an accident, and considering the bond between cops and their k9s, i can only imagine his grief. i would like to note that a lot of african animals are going extict because of native tribes poaching, not really the west. we need to educate them on why conservation is important. i feel like i really need to touch on this when large animals start to feed on humans, they'll go back and do it again. they begin to see humans as suitable and easy prey rather than troublesome and not worth dealing with for instance, in australia, they have to kill caimans who start eating humans. because once they start, they won't stop. first offenders in that category are always repeat offenders. the goal is to make animals wary and cautious of humans, so that they respect our boundaries as we (should) respect theirs. i think it's one thing if, like, a bear attacked a human encroaching on their space and they percieved as a threat. but if a bear started eating humans? that's bad. we are not their natural prey, and you can bet once they realize how (mostly) defenseless we are and easy to catch, they'll be back for more. that's why. okay that's a bit extreme On a different note. What even gives people the right to use animals in war? I know young men used to be conscripted into the army. But that's changed. But we still basically do it to animals.why is it wrong? i fail to see how any of that makes animals more "advanced" than us i mean we may not have "heat sensing" organs like a viper, but unlike them, we have great eyesight we may not have wings like birds, but we have fingers and thumbs all animals have their natural advantages and disadvantages for their lifestyle the advantage of humans is our brain. that's our version of heat-sensing, wings, digging claws, tails, sharp teeth. we have minds unmatched by other animals, so we use it to make up for our disadvantages animals also haven't found cures for basic illnesses like we have (you can thank education). animals can't travel 500 miles in a day like we can because we invented cars. animals can't make and appreciate art on our level. animals can't write and read engaging stories that bring them to a whole 'nother world. i'm not saying that the human race hasn't screwed up royally in its existence, but you act like we're completely useless, stupid, and our lifestyle is worthless because...animals don't do it? that's a strange standard. i mean, the bird of paradise has a one-of-a-kind way of life, but that doesn't make all the other animals' worthless because they don't dance around their mates with beautiful plumage. there are some parts of being human that animals will never experience. and yeah, some of it is awful like debt and communism and greed, but there are also parts that we are so lucky to be able to know.
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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 19, 2016 16:22:52 GMT -5
june "its that animals dont have a sense of "rights" themselves" I know animals don't know the concept of rights. Our intellect eclipses theirs, and that's precisely the point. They are but tools that serve us in any way we see fit, because we don't consider them to be our equals, and rightly so. Maybe we can call this "species-ism". I have yet to see an animal develop a language as complex as ours, art as complex as ours,, literature, philosophy, science, etc. Then again I have yet to see a human born with heat sensing organs. I have yet to see a human fly on their own. I have yet to see people withstand their body being split in half and survive. I have yet to see us survive toxic conditions/outer space without assistance. ( See water bears). I also have yet to see humans survive -20 degrees, completely freeze over and still come back to life. Oh well, If no one else is going to respond. Time to debate with myself besides I can always look back at this thread for reference. It will also make for good pratice for my class. The ending will be sweet but also sad.
They needed it for survival. We transcended these needs so much that we could afford luxury and developed things that aren't even needed for our survival. What they're genetically predisposed to have (flying, heat vision, etc.), we developed through years of engineering.
We're the only species that can actually build tools.
I have yet to see grammar, poetry, figurative and literal sense, or words being uttered. Animals' languages are extremely restricted, our abilities and manipulation of language eclipses theirs. The most primitive human language today is still infinitely more complex than that of any animals to this day. The reason being that our physiology (vocal cords) is adapted to utter much more sounds and couple that with how developed our understanding of our environment is...we can describe things they can't even begin to comprehend.
Have they questioned their origins? Have they questioned what is out of their environment? Their region? Their planet? Their solar system? Their galaxy? Can they cure disease through medicine? Can they sculpt like we do? Can they paint Mona Lisa? Can they develop airplanes? Can they fly into space? Can they build submarines to go into the depths of the ocean? Can they build boats that carries thousands of passengers and sail?
Our intellect eclipses their naturally adapted perks. By human standards, their accomplishments are pitiful.
Proportionally speaking, they can be impressive, but in a direct comparison with us? They cannot rival us.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 19, 2016 16:31:39 GMT -5
Only 3 responses. I think people are quite imitated by the lengthy text. LOL i think most people come to otd for humor and chats rather than in-depth debates lol
also, to be clear, i do mostly agree with you! animals should always be treated respectfully, and they should have some rights afforded to them-- i just don't think their inalienable rights are equal to ours
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Post by Cheyenne on Sept 19, 2016 16:36:49 GMT -5
I don't hunt for sport. In fact, my family rarely buys meat from the store unless we're having a cookout and almost no one wants venison burgers. We hunt and then eat the meat over time. I wouldn't have posted the thread if I knew you were going to get mad at me because of it. I'm against wasting meat, poaching, animal abuse, and hunting rare animals, but I don't think that hunting companies should close down because of it. Believe it or not there are people who depend on hunting to survive, and even though I no longer live in Alaska, my family sticks with the tradition of hunting. It's just something we do, and I'm sorry but I don't plan on changing that. However, I respect your opinion, but I can't satisfy both my family tradition which I wish to stick with, and everyone else.
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Luchesi
~ ัะฝฮฑโฯฯั ฮฑฮทโ ฯะฝฮนัฯััั ~
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Post by Luchesi on Sept 2, 2017 21:54:37 GMT -5
Vegan
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Post by Yoshimi on Sept 2, 2017 21:57:09 GMT -5
You have been gone for so long. And you decide to post on of my old threads calling me a vegan. Im not a vegan?!
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Luchesi
~ ัะฝฮฑโฯฯั ฮฑฮทโ ฯะฝฮนัฯััั ~
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Post by Luchesi on Sept 2, 2017 21:58:40 GMT -5
You have been gone for so long. And you decide to post on of my old threads calling me a vegan. Im not a vegan?!
Yup, pretty much.
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foxgloves
I'm taking Art Commissions, ask away!
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Post by foxgloves on Sept 2, 2017 22:23:08 GMT -5
humans: make anime animals: do not make anime how is there even a debate
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Post by hollis on Sept 2, 2017 22:27:15 GMT -5
this is a year old stop
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Post by ๐โ๐๐ ๐ฃ๐ on Sept 2, 2017 22:29:22 GMT -5
OOC Personally I agree with everything you said, and anyone who is fine with meat "farms" or hunting for sport, or PETA, or any of the others things you mentioned, should tell me now so I can know who to avoid. I personally, am a pescetarian because of my diet, otherwise I would be a full out vegetarian, and one thing that has always bothered me with my sister is that she actually says "people who don't eat meat are weak." And honestly, though she claims to love animals, she cares nothing about the things you mentioned and it really bothers me.
Anyways, animals definitely deserve more rights than they're given now.
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Post by ๐โ๐๐ ๐ฃ๐ on Sept 2, 2017 22:30:11 GMT -5
OOC Ah, I did not realize this was a year old. Should I delete my post?
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Post by โด าฮฑโฮนฮทg โฆ ัฮตฮฑโฮนัาฏ โต on Sept 2, 2017 22:32:18 GMT -5
OOC Ah, I did not realize this was a year old. Should I delete my post?
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you're probably fine, you weren't intentionally necroposting
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2017 22:48:12 GMT -5
yoshimi: animals should be treated better memoriesturned to dust, one year later: vegan ://
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Post by Northstar3213 on Sept 2, 2017 23:39:36 GMT -5
PETA's national HQ is twenty minutes from my house, and they also are the sole healthcare provider for my local shelter (and yes, it's a kill shelter). I'm not fond of them.
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