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Post by Sunleap24973 on Apr 16, 2024 13:21:25 GMT -5
As the title says, I know a lot of you don't like Clear Sky and his "redemption". Personally, I think it's good enough (Before any of the SEs and novellas) but if you were to rewrite it how would you do it?
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Post by کیوان on Apr 16, 2024 13:24:16 GMT -5
I'd straight up have him go full antagonist and not look back, and get sent to the Dark Forest in style. Nobody would see ancient SkyClan's leader going to such dark places coming, and we might have a chance for Gray Wing to get over him instead of excuse his every war crime.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 16, 2024 13:28:20 GMT -5
Literally just have it stick with what we have for TBS—or even PoS—and go from there. At this point, it's ridiculous how often he's relapsed; at least him lashing out in MFV and even SL the way he did made sense, but RH just made it unnecessary.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 16, 2024 13:40:20 GMT -5
I'd straight up have him go full antagonist and not look back, and get sent to the Dark Forest in style. Nobody would see ancient SkyClan's leader going to such dark places coming, and we might have a chance for Gray Wing to get over him instead of excuse his every war crime. Yeah, as much as I loved Skystar in TBS, I really wouldn't have minded if they had committed to having him being an actual villain all throughout, which is my problem with the character now: a lack of commitment. Any time the Erins need someone to be an opposing force to the other characters, he's the easiest to fall back on for obvious reasons and that's just incredibly lazy imo. There was no reason why, say, Thunderstar, couldn't have been the final antagonist instead if RH absolutely needed one right after Slash at all (not even in a malicious way either). At least change it up a bit!
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Post by cygna on Apr 16, 2024 13:42:12 GMT -5
Honestly just remove Star Flower from the equation.
She literally hurt & betrayed his son, choosing to mate with her means your child, who she hurt, can not avoid her. He literally also never tries to be a better father to Thunder at all.
He just went "having kits with the woman who negatively impacted your life in a major way made me realize how much I love you lol, also I want to be in your life from now on even though I was a massive deadbeat"
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Post by tumblepaw on Apr 16, 2024 13:44:30 GMT -5
I'd straight up have him go full antagonist and not look back, and get sent to the Dark Forest in style. Nobody would see ancient SkyClan's leader going to such dark places coming, and we might have a chance for Gray Wing to get over him instead of excuse his every war crime. Yeah, as much as I loved Skystar in TBS, I really wouldn't have minded if they had committed to having him being an actual villain all throughout, which is my problem with the character now: a lack of commitment. Any time the Erins need someone to be an opposing force to the other characters, he's the easiest to fall back on for obvious reasons and that's just incredibly lazy imo. There was no reason why, say, Thunderstar, couldn't have been the final antagonist instead if RH absolutely needed one right after Slash at all (not even in a malicious way either). At least change it up a bit! I agree. It’s like the authors want him as a morally gray character who reformed but completely fail to deliver on that because they just find it easier to use him as an antagonist. Then they slap on his “heroic” death and call it a day. I like the character okay but there’s a lot of missed opportunity with him. Never mind the wasted potential of using other characters.
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Post by Purdyisbestboi on Apr 16, 2024 13:45:50 GMT -5
Don’t have him be like who he was in MV and RH
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 16, 2024 14:09:06 GMT -5
Probably the biggest thing I'd change is to not have Gray Wing constantly excusing his actions, and especially not have StarClan waving it off. For StarClan to say that it was "all foretold" and thus Clear Sky deserves forgiveness, and then for Firestar to claim that Skystar is just "misunderstood" is so off-base. It just feels to me like, instead of properly addressing Skystar's actions and making him experience real consequences, they simply tried to brush it off and justify it through Gray Wing and StarClan.
I'd make him more consistent. The amount of times that Skystar went back to being his old self in SEs and novellas makes his place in StarClan, as well as every cat's respect for him, feel undeserved. Redemption needs to be at least mostly consistent, or else it's just going to feel like redeeming the character wasn't even worth the time.
Star Flower is another problem. She doesn't help Skystar's redemption. When she becomes his mate, every time Skystar gets called out by some character, she contradicts them (contradicting Quiet Rain in A Forest Divided or telling Moth Flight that Clear Sky was not at all to blame for Micah's death in MFV). Skystar simply goes by her word and he doesn't have to do any self-reflection. A redeemed Skystar would not hear her say, "You're a hero," and then just go with what she says and not bother to consider that she could be wrong. To actually show he's made progress, Skystar needs to question this more often and think for himself instead of simply accepting her words to make himself feel better.
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Post by beepaw on Apr 16, 2024 14:21:50 GMT -5
by removing the whole thing
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 16, 2024 14:27:06 GMT -5
Scrap Clear Sky's/Skystar's so called "redemption" (which was a very redundant one anyway due to his multiple relapses into being a pos in canon after the fact), make him worse instead lol. Same with Star Flower.
Though I wouldn't make them a villain couple. Instead, I feel like it'd be more fun if he goes full antagonist/villain and then she used as well as killed him. Star Flower could gain his trust faster by playing up her canon excusing of his actions, for example and playing into his ego and paranoia that what he had been doing the right thing/his actions were justified. He'd still be the SkyClan founder though (not sure about how that works in terms of the timeline). It could happen after SkyClan is named after him but he hasn't gotten his name or nine lives yet officially. Then she takes over (Starstar fr just without the lives again lol), gets defeated and someone actually competent takes over. Skystar and Star Flower both end up in the Dark Forest (with One Eye) hating each other for all eternity. The End.
As a sidenote, I feel like making at least one founder a villain in canon would've been so neat imo. And Skystar would've been the perfect choice since it coould've then played into the misfortunes that befell his Clan later on.
SkyClan's exile from the old forest due to the twoleg destruction, bad luck at the gorge with the rats, getting chased out of there by Darktail, strained reunion with the other Clans due to the territory conflict could've all been made to play into the fact that their founder was a stain on early Clan history and that some petty StarClan spirits might even imply/insinuate it's a curse and that SkyClan is still being (very unfairly) punished for their founder's crimes all those seasons ago for some reason. Throw Gray Wing into the mix too, who excused his brother's bs a lot in canon. Make him actively want to help the Clan that was made to suffer/be punished for his brother's wrongdoings.
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Post by Slightdapple on Apr 16, 2024 15:07:10 GMT -5
I actually would have preferred him go Dark Forest rather than the “redemption” he got in canon. It would’ve been really interesting to see a DF cat Clan founder.
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Apr 16, 2024 16:07:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't redeem him at all, just keep him as the antagonist for all of DOTC. And have SkyClan's troubles be a consequence. It'd be cool to have a founding clan leader in the Dark Forest.
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Post by iceheart on Apr 16, 2024 18:51:52 GMT -5
Basically repeating what everyone said, but keep him the same way he was. Sure he can be a bit apologetic, but keep him as the antagonist. He's more interesting that way and they don't have to flip flop on Clear Sky is a good guy/Clear Sky is a bad guy and Gray Wing's constant excusing of his actions (poor Clear Sky it must have been so hard on him killing all those cats!!)
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Post by Ravenshadow on Apr 16, 2024 19:02:09 GMT -5
Tbh... I mean I just want him to get what was coming to him. Go to the darkforest. Characters that evil, and more importantly power hungry, shouldn't get redemption. My dude has committed more crimes than Mao Zedong
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 20, 2024 13:26:16 GMT -5
Basically as it is, except do not make him an antagonist in Moth Flight's Vision or Riverstar's Home, especially the latter. That was the last straw for me on liking him as a character, it was ridiculous to make him the bad guy yet again.
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Post by -:*“*};windwisp;{*”*:- on Apr 20, 2024 21:46:37 GMT -5
I’d just not have it. Kill him at the end of the arc and have him be the first dark forest cat
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Post by Wolfyy- on Apr 20, 2024 23:07:34 GMT -5
Tbh... I mean I just want him to get what was coming to him. Go to the darkforest. Characters that evil, and more importantly power hungry, shouldn't get redemption. My dude has committed more crimes than Mao Zedong More like meow zedong... i couldnt help myself dskfldfgjfog
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Apr 21, 2024 0:11:27 GMT -5
What redemption? There’d need to be some semblance of a redemption path for him, in order to make changes too. Not even joking. There’s 0 redemption for throughout his arc in my eyes.
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Post by scarletflames on Apr 21, 2024 20:24:53 GMT -5
I am on the last book of Dawn of the Clans now, haven't read the novellas with DOTC characters and I haven't read Riverstar's Home or Moth Flight's SE yet.
The main thing I would change is to STOP having Gray Wing and Thunder CONSTANTLY feeling sympathy, or admiration, for Clear Sky. Especially the scene where Clear Sky is confronted over Bumble's death- not only did I loathe Gray Wing's terrible attitude toward Bumble, but him admiring his brother during the confrontation scene made me want to reach into the book and call him a mouse-brained fox-heart!
So... yeah, main thing I would change is constantly hearing about Thunder and Gray Wing's sympathy, giving him the benefit of the doubt, and admiration. Especially after Thunder Rising, whenever Clear Sky's crimes are brought up- instead of pitying him for feeling bad now, I think if I was in Thunder or Gray Wing's paws, I'd be thinking something closer to "well, you should feel bad right now because your actions were inexcusable and NOT okay! Feeling bad is technically a natural consequence if you murder cats and do terrible things, so why should I feel bad over you experiencing a natural consequence due to your own conscience!"
Second thing I would change... have Quiet Rain NOT forgive Clear Sky. I'd be fine with something like, "I love you because you are my kit but I will not forgive your crimes Clear Sky." But outright forgiving Clear Sky disgusted me- there are some things that IMHO are unforgivable, and many of his actions, in my opinion, fall under the "unforgivable" territory. Like, if the Erins didn't want Quiet Rain to hate Clear Sky, fine, but they could have had her NOT forgive him but still love him due to being his mom. That would have been more powerful, than how she's pressured by Shaded Moss to just forgive her son's crimes (including murder and abusing his cats in his camp during Thunder Rising!)
I get One Eye was worse... but his treatment of his cats disgusted me to my core during Thunder Rising, including starving a cat!!! Like... he seemed much closer to One Eye with his cruelty than the narrative of DOTC wants us to think (again, One Eye was worse, but that doesn't automatically make Clear Sky an honorable or respectable leader).
Third... Clear Sky kicking out Frost, being abusive to his cats' in Thunder Rising (and even on the book I'm on, he scratches Quick Water for not confronting the rogues after taking Star Flower! Like, even if Quick Water fought, I don't think she would have won... and Clear Sky scratching her, even though Clear Sky was upset, was absolutely unacceptable as a leader! By scratching Quick Water he was yet again abusing his power as leader... making me think how he did NOT deserve his leadership position in the forest)...like... I just wish there had been actual consequences for Clear Sky's abuse of his cats instead of introducing One Eye as the worse leader. It's like the story introduced One Eye, in part, just to make Clear Sky seem more desirable, when this was not the effect One Eye's introduction had on me
If Quick Water had left Clear Sky's group, that would have been nice to read. Or she could have confronted him "if you ever starve a cat in camp again, or kick out an injured cat like Frost or Jagged Peak again, I will leave you and so will others' ".
Clear Sky got away with literal murder and starvation when he held (was it Tall Shadow's brother? I forget which cat) prisoner. I wish instead of him getting sympathy and a wife, he'd gotten actual consequences outside of cats occasionally distrusting him (which is his fault for not being trustworthy!)
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 22, 2024 2:28:24 GMT -5
Honestly just remove Star Flower from the equation. She literally hurt & betrayed his son, choosing to mate with her means your child, who she hurt, can not avoid her. He literally also never tries to be a better father to Thunder at all. He just went "having kits with the woman who negatively impacted your life in a major way made me realize how much I love you lol, also I want to be in your life from now on even though I was a massive deadbeat" Pretty much this. Not to mention, she literally stood by and watched while her father and his goons were torturing Clear Sky after they ambushed and held him captive. Even when One Eye was rightfully slain, she still had the audacity to say he was a great cat in front of them, and also beg to join the Clans despite everything she did. She used Thunder's feelings, betrayed them for information, etc. Then when Clear Sky was rightfully, finally, getting shredded verbally by his own mother, Star Flower pretty much says he did nothing wrong. She has easily regressed any progress he's made, and ruined relationship between Thunder and Clear Sky permanently. Clear Sky was already on his way to a good redemption, and Star Flower quite blatantly just threw a wrench in it. He's even worse in Moth Flight's SE, showing that he hasn't progressed at all.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 22, 2024 12:06:47 GMT -5
Honestly just remove Star Flower from the equation. She literally hurt & betrayed his son, choosing to mate with her means your child, who she hurt, can not avoid her. He literally also never tries to be a better father to Thunder at all. He just went "having kits with the woman who negatively impacted your life in a major way made me realize how much I love you lol, also I want to be in your life from now on even though I was a massive deadbeat" A little off-topic but also like... The fact that Clear Sky literally thought, "Finally, a mate worthy of me." Like Bright Stream and Storm were never worthy of being with him?? Even though he literally was wondering if he actually belonged with Storm while Star Flower was nursing his kits?? Like?? The entire ClearStar relationship is weird and set Clear Sky back in so many ways.
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Post by cygna on Apr 22, 2024 12:20:43 GMT -5
Honestly just remove Star Flower from the equation. She literally hurt & betrayed his son, choosing to mate with her means your child, who she hurt, can not avoid her. He literally also never tries to be a better father to Thunder at all. He just went "having kits with the woman who negatively impacted your life in a major way made me realize how much I love you lol, also I want to be in your life from now on even though I was a massive deadbeat" A little off-topic but also like... The fact that Clear Sky literally thought, "Finally, a mate worthy of me." Like Bright Stream and Storm were never worthy of being with him?? Even though he literally was wondering if he actually belonged with Storm while Star Flower was nursing his kits?? Like?? The entire ClearStar relationship is weird and set Clear Sky back in so many ways. The fact Bright Stream even named their daughter (Pale Sky) after him yet he has the audacity to think she wasn’t worthy of him.
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Post by Birdskip on Apr 26, 2024 16:15:22 GMT -5
The concept of an antagonist in the first half who becomes a protagonist in the second half who gives chances to cats who have made mistakes and hurt others is super fun and creates an interesting identity for SkyClan (Red Claw, Star Flower). However, if redeeming Clear Sky was always the plan, they should not have worked so hard to make him a villain and then make his redemption happen so quickly.
PRE-REDEMPTION CHANGES > make Bright Stream and Storm into the same character. Maybe they don't officially date until they're at the forest and then Thunder is born the same time as canon, but giving Clear Sky multiple expendable dead wives isn't the sympathetic backstory the books think it is. Clear Sky can already be fueled by guilt and grief after his sister's death. Perhaps he failed a catch earlier that day and feels his sister's starvation was because of him. > the whole thing where Gray Wing kills Fox in self defense is kind of never relevant even when Clear Sky says it's war??? > have Clear Sky not consider killing two kits (Alder and Birch) > some cats, like Petal, have respect for Clear Sky and his strength as a leader. Maybe show us this instead of showing him as a cruel tyrant throughout TR. Thunder and Clear Sky can still clash without Clear Sky being objectively evil. > have Clear Sky not involved in Bumble's death. The whole thing about Bumble and Tom is written really strangely and that's a whole other issue I have with this arc > he still kills Misty (who trespassed and was known to antagonize current group member Petal) > he still kills Rainswept Flower and causes The First Battle > his motivations should be a mix of fear, greed, and grief, fueled by guilt. The books currently make him look power hungry.
REDEMPTION CHANGES > when Quiet Rain disowns him, don't have her forgive him. Let Clear Sky live with the consequences for more than a minute. > have him officially apologize for how he antagonized the moor cats and his family. I don't want him to be forgiven, I just want him to make an effort. > make the reader feel Clear Sky wants to try getting better and not just feel bad for him because "oh no! a tyrant took over my group!" or "oh no! my mom disowned me for two minutes!" or "oh no! someone kidnapped my wife!" or "oh no! i treated everyone I know and love like crap and now they won't listen to me!" > maybe after One Eye took over his group and is defeated, Clear Sky is hesitant to be leader again. After all, does his group even want him as leader? Does he deserve to lead after all his mistakes? Make him introspective and want to work to be better. His group can ask him to step up again because they appreciate a strong leader who isn't a nasty tyrant, and Clear Sky can promise to do his best to listen to the concerns of his cats and be an even better leader than before. > Star Flower and Thunder are never a ship, idc. that was just kinda weird. Thunder naturally wants to take in those who need support anyway. This does not need to be romantic. > don't kill Petal. keep a cat around who makes Clear Sky look a little better. > we can keep the scene where he apologizes to Thunder and Thunder's like "umm thanks i guess. youll still never be my dad" and the best Clear Sky can do is promise to be a better father moving forward. I like this scene. > the scene where Jagged Peak talks back to Clear Sky because "you need Gray Wing to tell you what I've done!" could be followed up on. Maybe Clear Sky tries to praise Jagged Peak for his progress and we can see some development for Jagged Peak as well, telling Clear Sky that he doesn't need his approval. A sense of too little too late. Clear Sky has ruined his relationships and some of them will never be repaired. > Clear Sky saving Gray Wing's kit still happens and works as a way to mirror how Gray Wing saved Thunder. His tail gets run over and it's clear that Clear Sky was willing to put himself in harm's way to save someone else, a resolution to his beginning of wanting to protect his own feelings due to his greed, grief, and fear.
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