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Post by cygna on Apr 9, 2024 3:25:52 GMT -5
Ignoring the “redeemed” ones like Breezepelt, Clear Sky, Blackstar etc.
I personally think Mapleshade is capable of love, but it’s debated by many of her haters. I see MANY people claim she didn’t love her kits and used them as an excuse to hurt those she blamed for ruining her perfect life. While, I do think Mapleshade was far from a good mother and in some ways used them (or at least tried to), I also think it’s possible for her toxicity & possessiveness to coexist with genuine love for her own children that she birthed.
the others tho…
Brokenstar - Cat Voldemort. Born evil and literally incapable of love.
Tigerstar - Born evil. Erins claim he loved Sasha but he literally praised his other son for killing Sasha’s son so I think they should clarify that Tigerstar probably just lusted after Sasha & didn’t really gaf about her or their kits.
Darktail - Born evil. Loved no one.
Ashfur - Not born evil I think but not capable of love either anymore. He surely didn’t “love too much” because what he felt for Squirrelflight definitely wasn’t love. He might have loved Brindleface, Ferncloud, & Cloudtail at one point but seeing as he terrorized his siblings’s grandchildren/great grandchildren and even Cloudtail himself… I doubt it.
Thistleclaw - Seemed to care about Snowfur at one point, but apparently he sees her & Whitestorm as weak or something. He seemed genuinely devastated over his sister Sweetpaw as well but I guess he just lost ALL his humanity.
Hawkfrost - He seemed not evil in ASiR, and when Mothwing encountered him during the great battle, he just left her alone, perhaps it was out of love he didn’t try to kill her. He also probably loved his evil father.
Darkstripe - Definitely loved Tigerstar.
Sleekwhisker - Killed her own mother & grandfather. Would probably kill her brothers if they weren’t already dead & got on her bad side too. Don’t think she’s capable of love.
Thoughts?
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Post by moongloweevee on Apr 9, 2024 5:05:45 GMT -5
I'm only going to talk about a few cats
Tigerstar had to have at least loved Goldenflower at one point because, ya know, they had kits together. While he wasn't necessarily concerned with getting her out during The Dangerous Path with the dogs (because she was an adult who would have most likely spilled the beans), he did try to get his kits out. The Dark Forest most likely changed that as Juniperclaw mentioned that it could corrupt a cat further into madness.
Hawkfrost- While he left Mothwing alone, they did share one scene in a novella where she saw him heading for the nursery and shouted his name. He looked over at her with blank eyes and she couldn't believe that this was once her dear, sweet brother. She remembered he was at one point lovable and sweet. Once again, The Dark Forest claimed another cat into darkness.
Darktail- this is 100% bull. He wasn't born evil moreso rejected by his cowardly father and poisoned against the clans by his own mother. I HATE the way Starclan said he would have been born evil. If Onestar hadn't rejected him, he wouldn't BE evil.
Ashfur- he's the definition of a 'nice guy' aka incel. What he had for Squirrelflight was obsession and the need to control, not love.
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Post by cygna on Apr 9, 2024 8:17:56 GMT -5
I'm only going to talk about a few cats Tigerstar had to have at least loved Goldenflower at one point because, ya know, they had kits together. While he wasn't necessarily concerned with getting her out during The Dangerous Path with the dogs (because she was an adult who would have most likely spilled the beans), he did try to get his kits out. The Dark Forest most likely changed that as Juniperclaw mentioned that it could corrupt a cat further into madness. Hawkfrost- While he left Mothwing alone, they did share one scene in a novella where she saw him heading for the nursery and shouted his name. He looked over at her with blank eyes and she couldn't believe that this was once her dear, sweet brother. She remembered he was at one point lovable and sweet. Once again, The Dark Forest claimed another cat into darkness. Darktail- this is 100% bull. He wasn't born evil moreso rejected by his cowardly father and poisoned against the clans by his own mother. I HATE the way Starclan said he would have been born evil. If Onestar hadn't rejected him, he wouldn't BE evil. Ashfur- he's the definition of a 'nice guy' aka incel. What he had for Squirrelflight was obsession and the need to control, not love. You don’t need to love someone to have kits with them. CrowNight never loved each other but they had Breezepelt. Spiderleg might have not loved Daisy when he knocked her up either. I think Goldenflower was just “a proper ThunderClan womb” to Tigerstar. He wanted to have kits but I don’t think he had those kits for love, he had them for legacy. Meanwhile he probably never intend to knock up Sasha at all seeing as he didn’t love their kits, who were half-clan, half-kittypet, & went against all his beliefs.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 9, 2024 8:56:38 GMT -5
I don't think Tigerstar ever loved anyone but himself. Sure, he looked out for his kits, but imo he saw his offspring more as property of his ensuring legacy than as living individuals to bond with. His kiddos were just another means by which he could expand his empire... a little Tiger empire, with him at the top of it all. As soon as his offspring refused to comply, he saw them as disposable.
I still disagree with the interpretation that Brokenstar was literally born evil. To me, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing, where he was always going to grow up in an environment that encouraged his worst instincts. An abusive foster mother and an egomaniac father - both of which modeled to Brokenstar that the only way to earn respect was power over others. He never learned to love others.
Ashfur was capable of love, we saw it when he was younger. But he developed a possessive nature that gradually snuffed out any genuine love he could have for others.
Hawkfrost is interesting; I actually do think he was capable of empathy. That's part of why I voted him as "most redeemable" on the other thread. He was never needlessly cruel like a lot of other villains and did not take obvious enjoyment from inflicting suffering; he was just pragmatic about it. He also clearly had great love for his brother Tadpole as kits and their mother. Tbh, Hawkfrost's story toward villainy was the least inevitable. Being abandoned by his mother and then raised as a complete outsider in RiverClan, I'm sure he felt a deep need to prove himself, and it would not have been hard for Tigerstar to gradually warp that ambition into something twisted. Without his father's influence, I doubt Hawkfrost would have turned out like that. It's kind of a Thistleclaw and Tigerpaw thing all over again.
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Post by moongloweevee on Apr 9, 2024 12:52:31 GMT -5
I'm only going to talk about a few cats Tigerstar had to have at least loved Goldenflower at one point because, ya know, they had kits together. While he wasn't necessarily concerned with getting her out during The Dangerous Path with the dogs (because she was an adult who would have most likely spilled the beans), he did try to get his kits out. The Dark Forest most likely changed that as Juniperclaw mentioned that it could corrupt a cat further into madness. Hawkfrost- While he left Mothwing alone, they did share one scene in a novella where she saw him heading for the nursery and shouted his name. He looked over at her with blank eyes and she couldn't believe that this was once her dear, sweet brother. She remembered he was at one point lovable and sweet. Once again, The Dark Forest claimed another cat into darkness. Darktail- this is 100% bull. He wasn't born evil moreso rejected by his cowardly father and poisoned against the clans by his own mother. I HATE the way Starclan said he would have been born evil. If Onestar hadn't rejected him, he wouldn't BE evil. Ashfur- he's the definition of a 'nice guy' aka incel. What he had for Squirrelflight was obsession and the need to control, not love. You don’t need to love someone to have kits with them. CrowNight never loves each other but they had Breezepelt. Spiderleg might have not loved Daisy when he knocked her up either. I think Goldenflower was just “a proper ThunderClan womb” to Tigerstar. He wanted to have kits but I don’t think he had those kits for love, he had them for legacy. Meanwhile he probably never intend to knock up Sasha at all seeing as he didn’t love their kits, who were half-clan, half-kittypet, & went against all his beliefs. That is a fair point and we don't ever get to see how they interacted with each other.
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