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Post by Chicken on Apr 6, 2024 16:04:38 GMT -5
It seems like it doesn't really matter in the end. A lot of cats have been in forbidden relationships, they're in StarClan, and that rule was overturned, not saying they should go to the DF for that, but this was a code that was consistently broken. Cats killed other cats in cold blood and were made leader by StarClan, it seems like they value ambition over doing what's best for the clans. A cat tried to kill a leader and four other cats and got sent to StarClan. A cat withheld herbs from a clan he knew was in serious trouble after the law about making sure all clans survive was established. I don't fault Mudclaw for enticing a war and putting the clans in danger because that law wasn't established yet. Cats are able to become deputies and leaders without ever even having an apprentice. What is the point of this code if it doesn't mean anything and not even StarClan cares about the rules they dictated? Do they even do vigils after becoming warriors anymore? When has the code actually mattered and been important last? If it sounds like I'm complaining, that's not my intention, it's just something I noticed and felt the need to bring up
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 6, 2024 16:08:19 GMT -5
Yes and no, I don't think it's as black and white as you're making it out to be.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 6, 2024 16:13:40 GMT -5
A lot of it comes down to plot convenience, I think. For the leaders thing specifically, I think TPB tried to portray it as StarClan having little control over who becomes leader and having to make them leader if they were deputy (Tigerstar I and Brokenstar), but they can deprive a new leader of lives if the previous leader never surrendered them (Sunstar and Nightstar). If StarClan actively prevented bad cats from becoming leader, the authors/editors couldn't justify having villains in leader positions with nine lives. Blackfoot's Reckoning kinda supports this idea, as even if Blackstar ended up having zero remorse from his memories, it seemed that he would be made leader regardless if he wanted. Yet this is in direct contradiction to the warrior code, something that's never really addressed. I think the new code for deposing a leader tried to address it somewhat, but that only works after a leader's already been put into power by StarClan.
Edit: All that said, there are times when a Clan is in desperate need of a leader (such as ShadowClan losing both leader and deputy to sickness), and so this may cause both the Clan and StarClan to accept a bad leader so that the Clan can have some order.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 6, 2024 17:09:46 GMT -5
JaysnowI know this is off topic and it's none of my business, but I figured I'd ask anyway but are you okay? Your pfp is gone and your taglines, that's usually a sign that something is wrong. I respect your privacy so sorry if I'm overstepping, I just thought I'd ask. Maybe you're right about me thinking about it too black and white, but it seems like there's more code breaking than code following
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Post by Chicken on Apr 6, 2024 17:12:09 GMT -5
A lot of it comes down to plot convenience, I think. For the leaders thing specifically, I think TPB tried to portray it as StarClan having no control over who becomes leader and having to make them leader if they were deputy (Tigerstar I and Brokenstar), but they can deprive a new leader of lives (Sunstar and Nightstar). If StarClan actively prevented bad cats from becoming leader, the authors/editors couldn't justify having villains in leader positions with nine lives. Blackfoot's Reckoning kinda supports this idea, as even if Blackstar ended up having zero remorse from his memories, it seemed that he would be made leader regardless if he wanted. Yet this is in direct contradiction to the warrior code, something that's never really addressed. I think the new code for deposing a leader tried to address it somewhat, but that only works after a leader's already been put into power by StarClan. Edit: All that said, there are times when a Clan is in desperate need of a leader (such as ShadowClan losing both leader and deputy to sickness), and so this may cause both the Clan and StarClan to accept a bad leader so that the Clan can have some order. Desperate times calling for desperate measures makes sense, but choosing Brokenstar and Tigerclaw over Nightpelt? Was it because he had asthma and StarClan saw him as a weak and incapable leader? I've been saying this for awhile now, but I think StarClan is the true ultimate villain of the series
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 6, 2024 17:12:59 GMT -5
Jaysnow I know this is off topic and it's none of my business, but I figured I'd ask anyway but are you okay? Your pfp is gone and your taglines, that's usually a sign that something is wrong. I respect your privacy so sorry if I'm overstepping, I just thought I'd ask. Maybe you're right about me thinking about it too black and white, but it seems like there's more code breaking than code following I'll pm you.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 6, 2024 17:39:52 GMT -5
Jaysnow I know this is off topic and it's none of my business, but I figured I'd ask anyway but are you okay? Your pfp is gone and your taglines, that's usually a sign that something is wrong. I respect your privacy so sorry if I'm overstepping, I just thought I'd ask. Maybe you're right about me thinking about it too black and white, but it seems like there's more code breaking than code following I'll pm you. Alright
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Post by Brownie on Apr 6, 2024 17:43:45 GMT -5
Yeah, honestly that's why I haven't bothered keeping up with the series. The fun part of the original series for me was seeing these cats try and keep their Clan's pride but also bend the rules to keep their power and now it's just like. Oh it's okay because you had Good Intentions
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 6, 2024 17:44:55 GMT -5
A lot of it comes down to plot convenience, I think. For the leaders thing specifically, I think TPB tried to portray it as StarClan having no control over who becomes leader and having to make them leader if they were deputy (Tigerstar I and Brokenstar), but they can deprive a new leader of lives (Sunstar and Nightstar). If StarClan actively prevented bad cats from becoming leader, the authors/editors couldn't justify having villains in leader positions with nine lives. Blackfoot's Reckoning kinda supports this idea, as even if Blackstar ended up having zero remorse from his memories, it seemed that he would be made leader regardless if he wanted. Yet this is in direct contradiction to the warrior code, something that's never really addressed. I think the new code for deposing a leader tried to address it somewhat, but that only works after a leader's already been put into power by StarClan. Edit: All that said, there are times when a Clan is in desperate need of a leader (such as ShadowClan losing both leader and deputy to sickness), and so this may cause both the Clan and StarClan to accept a bad leader so that the Clan can have some order. Desperate times calling for desperate measures makes sense, but choosing Brokenstar and Tigerclaw over Nightpelt? Was it because he had asthma and StarClan saw him as a weak and incapable leader? I've been saying this for awhile now, but I think StarClan is the true ultimate villain of the series It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and neither does the idea that a new leader can't get their lives unless the previous leader has given them up. It actively enables villains to keep doing what they're doing, even if they aren't with the Clan anymore. Maybe StarClan saw Nightstar as too weak to lead, but even if that's the case, they could have sent a sign for Runningnose to pick someone else. Personally, again, I see it as simply plot convenience. StarClan does what's convenient for the plot and little else.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 6, 2024 17:54:44 GMT -5
Desperate times calling for desperate measures makes sense, but choosing Brokenstar and Tigerclaw over Nightpelt? Was it because he had asthma and StarClan saw him as a weak and incapable leader? I've been saying this for awhile now, but I think StarClan is the true ultimate villain of the series It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and neither does the idea that a new leader can't get their lives unless the previous leader has given them up. It actively enables villains to keep doing what they're doing, even if they aren't with the Clan anymore. Maybe StarClan saw Nightstar as too weak to lead, but even if that's the case, they could have sent a sign for Runningnose to pick someone else. Personally, again, I see it as simply plot convenience. StarClan does what's convenient for the plot and little else. Yeah that's true, I didn't think about it being a plot convenience, but that opens a new can of worms up in regards to the writing and them making things not make much sense in order to alter the plot, it seems to be a lack of ideas, but it's not too big of a problem imo, I still really like this series and think there's a lot that can be expanded on, it's one of those series that could potentially go on forever because they have established world building and stuff, you could keep the world of Warriors going forever, make new clans in a new location, have a bunch of new names, it'll be something different, but the core elements will be the same. I also like the background character moments
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Post by Chicken on Apr 9, 2024 22:06:10 GMT -5
Yeah, honestly that's why I haven't bothered keeping up with the series. The fun part of the original series for me was seeing these cats try and keep their Clan's pride but also bend the rules to keep their power and now it's just like. Oh it's okay because you had Good Intentions Yes that's so true, you really don't see that much anymore, it seems they put over 90% of the focus on relationship drama and the main plot drama, and there's just not much of those elements that made the cats feel like they're part of a clan, I could be wrong as I haven't been keeping up with the series either, but it feels like the clans themselves have lost what made them interesting, ShadowClan no longer sneaks and stinks, I don't think they even eat frogs anymore, in fact, everyone is eating rabbits, which used to be a main WindClan prey, and I know that Tigerclaw got a bunch of rabbits to lure dogs there, but wasn't it also mentioned that Sandstorm was one of the only ThunderClan cats fast enough to catch rabbits? They also don't seem to have that many border skirmishes because everyone is bffs after everything they went through, which makes sense, but this is Warrior Cats not Love and Drama Cats. I also really like reading about the boring mundane things like doing apprentice tasks and stuff
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 9, 2024 23:50:21 GMT -5
No, wait, you have a point. Breaking the code seems to have very little consequences.
Now, personally, I'm not one to advocate for extremely rigid rule-following. I think the code is best used as a guide rather than a strict law. Part of what made Firestar an attractive candidate for leadership is that he knew when rules needed to be followed and when they needed to be broken; you could say he followed the "spirit of the law" rather than the "letter of the law". So the answer isn't strict code adherence.
However, a lot of codes get broken without reasonable justification, and without much ramification. There's a lot of emphasis on the code in recent arcs, but ironically the power it holds over the clans is highly inconsistent and completely determined by plot convenience.
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