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#FF00EC
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 20, 2023 10:30:43 GMT -5
I just saw this poll on the official Warriors instagram (warriorcatshubofficial) and thought it was quite a "fun" topic for discussion on here.
But please remember to be respectful of the opinions others and mindful of how you interact with each other even if there are disagreements about the topic of discourse.
Not sure if this ever got posted on here already or even the official website. I'm just saying that because the instagram account also put up a poll recently that was on the website a few years ago about favorite Firestar ships (which included Sandstorm, Cinderpelt and Spottedleaf as options), which I do know got posted and discussed on here as well back then.
My vote went to Leopardstar. Even though I still dislike her (as well as Blackstar while despising both Skystar and Onestar) and do not forgive any of these fictional battle kitties for their crimes against Clan society lol.
As for my reasoning, it moreso has to do with the fact that Leopardstar herself never killed anyone (she did let Stonefur die though and was ready to let Featherpaw and Stormpaw be killed) unlike the other three leaders (I'm counting Onestar not helping ShadowClan during their bout of yellowcough in AVoS as him being indirectly directly responsible for at least some of the deaths of which most could've been prevented if only help had arrived sooner via the lungwort he withheld btw). Granted, neither of the books which have been written to make readers forgive these cats (still waiting for that Skystar novella though) have done a particularly good job of doing that imo. Still think at least two of them didn't need a redemption arc and should've instead been made worse (especially Skystar and Leopardstar though).
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 20, 2023 10:47:11 GMT -5
Skystar: Love him, but that doesn't mean I forgive him, especially given how weirdly inconsistent his redemption arc was handled after TBS.
Onestar: Also, love him as a character, but his cowardly actions caused way too much trouble than it was worth and Whitetail deserved so much better.
Leopardstar: I'd probably forgive her if it weren't for the fact that her SE kinda tried to soften her actions (ex: no longer wanting to run away from the threat that was BloodClan like how it was presented in TDH), and of course, there was siding with WindClan to attack ThunderClan. Still would like to know the reason for that, btw!
So I guess I'm going with Blackstar. I really didn't feel anything for his redemption arc one way or the other and then there was the whole Sol incident, but compared to his contemporaries, he really seemed to turn around for the better and stuck to it for the most part.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 20, 2023 11:02:13 GMT -5
Skystar: Love him, but that doesn't mean I forgive him, especially given how weirdly inconsistent his redemption arc was handled after TBS. Onestar: Also, love him as a character, but his cowardly actions caused way too much trouble than it was worth and Whitetail deserved so much better. Leopardstar: I'd probably forgive her if it weren't for the fact that her SE kinda tried to soften her actions (ex: no longer wanting to run away from the threat that was BloodClan like how it was presented in TDH), and of course, there was siding with WindClan to attack ThunderClan. Still would like to know the reason for that, btw! So I guess I'm going with Blackstar. I really didn't feel anything for his redemption arc one way or the other and then there was the whole Sol incident, but compared to his contemporaries, he really seemed to turn around for the better and stuck to it for the most part. I initially also went for Blackstar but then thought about it and decided on Leopardstar instead. My previous reasoning moreso had to do with Blackstar being more interesting as a character (in my opinion) than Leopardstar after the arc in which they both acted horribly in. But then I had to remind myself that this poll question was not about whose characterization I thought to be more appealing there in terms of post-TPB character moments/scenes. Big agree on Leopardstar's Honor trying to soften her actions and behaviour, by the way. I feel like something similar happened with Blackfoot's Reckoning though, in the sense that he was portrayed to have doubts even in the process of killing Stonefur, which I thought was a frankly ridiculous portrayal when taking his actual demeanor while killing him during both The Darkest Hour and even Leopardstar's Honor into account. Both Leopardstar and Blackstar got made out to be far more "innocent" in the retelling of events during their respective books than what they actually acted like regarding their main series counterpart(s).
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Apr 20, 2023 15:21:09 GMT -5
Whomever was the nutjob that decided Skystar even belongs on the list for consideration. Seriously has me questioning humanity right now /hj.
Onestar, although imo I don’t think his crimes are on the same scale as Leopardstar and Blackstar. He also never actually did anything to earn forgiveness for what he’d done. So he ain’t getting my sympathy.
tough choice between Leopardstar and Blackstar. But I’m going to go with Blackstar, because I believe he did a better job repenting for past transgressions, and keeping himself clean afterwards, avoiding unnecessary bloodshed/fighting etc.
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Omnisexual
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
I need to finish An Isolated Clan ahhhhh
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Apr 20, 2023 15:22:30 GMT -5
Blackstar. I may be being biased because he’s one of my favorite characters, but if you think about it, he just wanted to be a loyal deputy. He served under Brokenstar first, just trying to be loyal. When Tigerstar came in, he did the same. It wasn’t his fault that he was stuck with evil leaders. Everything bad he did was under a order, and wasn’t his intention. He killed Stonefur on a order. He broke into the ThunderClan on a order. Then when Blackstar was made leader, he wasn’t bad. All he did was try to make ShadowClan look great again, that’s all. He got redemption and owned up to his mistakes. I also headcannon that Blackstar was traumatized after killing Stonefur, and deeply regretted it.
Leopardstar, on the other hand, is harder to forgive. Why? The fact that she let her own deputy be imprisoned and killed is ridiculous. The fact that she let Tigerstar imprison Mistyfoot(star), who she literally makes her deputy shortly after, along with Stormpaw(fur) and Featherpaw(tail), who were just two innocent apprentices. She watched Stonefur get killed, and did nothing about it, despite him being her deputy. And this is said to be because of her love for Tigerstar? No. You don’t let cats die over “love”. She learned what Tigerstar’s true intentions were, and still agreed to join TigerClan.
I’m not even going to explain for Onestar. Just look at AVoS and the messed up stuff he did to ThunderClan in PoT.
I haven’t read DotC yet, but I’ve heard that Clear Sky was a jerk, so I guess I’ll not forgive him lol.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 20, 2023 16:30:12 GMT -5
Skystar: Love him, but that doesn't mean I forgive him, especially given how weirdly inconsistent his redemption arc was handled after TBS. Onestar: Also, love him as a character, but his cowardly actions caused way too much trouble than it was worth and Whitetail deserved so much better. Leopardstar: I'd probably forgive her if it weren't for the fact that her SE kinda tried to soften her actions (ex: no longer wanting to run away from the threat that was BloodClan like how it was presented in TDH), and of course, there was siding with WindClan to attack ThunderClan. Still would like to know the reason for that, btw! So I guess I'm going with Blackstar. I really didn't feel anything for his redemption arc one way or the other and then there was the whole Sol incident, but compared to his contemporaries, he really seemed to turn around for the better and stuck to it for the most part. I initially also went for Blackstar but then thought about it and decided on Leopardstar instead. My previous reasoning moreso had to do with Blackstar being more interesting as a character (in my opinion) than Leopardstar after the arc in which they both acted horribly in. But then I had to remind myself that this poll question was not about whose characterization I thought to be more appealing there in terms of post-TPB character moments/scenes. Big agree on Leopardstar's Honor trying to soften her actions and behaviour, by the way. I feel like something similar happened with Blackfoot's Reckoning though, in the sense that he was portrayed to have doubts even in the process of killing Stonefur, which I thought was a frankly ridiculous portrayal when taking his actual demeanor while killing him during both The Darkest Hour and even Leopardstar's Honor into account. Both Leopardstar and Blackstar got made out to be far more "innocent" in the retelling of events during their respective books than what they actually acted like regarding their main series counterpart(s). True, but on the other hand, at least with Blackstar, he just seems to be the type of cat who's good at masking his emotions and any guilt he felt was largely internal anyway; he still kills Stonefur without hesitation in his flashback, never even apologizes to him or Rosetail, and it's made clear the latter two don't exactly think highly of him even in death, either. With Leopardstar, it really felt like the SE was trying hard to get you to like her, but in doing so, we get reveals like her banishing her own father just because he disagreed with her, or changed scenes altogether, like deciding to stand up to BloodClan without Firestar having to convince her first.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 20, 2023 16:35:08 GMT -5
I also headcannon that Blackstar was traumatized after killing Stonefur, and deeply regretted it. [...] And this is said to be because of her love for Tigerstar? No. You don’t let cats die over “love”. The former is pretty much confirmed to be true in Blackstar's novella, but the latter was debunked years ago when Leopardstar's SE came out. She joined Tigerstar purely for political reasons. Her decision had nothing to do with love. That part is outdated information.
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on Apr 20, 2023 17:18:49 GMT -5
Blackstar, because he felt guilty for what he did and I love him
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 20, 2023 18:17:05 GMT -5
Blackstar. I feel like his redemption was the most well written and he's done a generally good job of cleaning up his act afterward.
I wouldn't really forgive any of them honestly, but if I had to choose it'd be Blackstar.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 19:06:29 GMT -5
I initially posted saying Onestar for the sake of the poll, but that I wouldn't forgive any of them, but even that I can't do. I really don't think I'd ever forgive any of them. There is no "easiest" option for me.
This isn't to say that I dislike all of these characters (minus Leopardstar who I don't like at all. I also only like Clear Sky as a villain and not with whatever redemption they tried to give him), but in terms of forgiveness I don't think any of them particularly deserve it.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 21, 2023 6:46:40 GMT -5
I initially also went for Blackstar but then thought about it and decided on Leopardstar instead. My previous reasoning moreso had to do with Blackstar being more interesting as a character (in my opinion) than Leopardstar after the arc in which they both acted horribly in. But then I had to remind myself that this poll question was not about whose characterization I thought to be more appealing there in terms of post-TPB character moments/scenes. Big agree on Leopardstar's Honor trying to soften her actions and behaviour, by the way. I feel like something similar happened with Blackfoot's Reckoning though, in the sense that he was portrayed to have doubts even in the process of killing Stonefur, which I thought was a frankly ridiculous portrayal when taking his actual demeanor while killing him during both The Darkest Hour and even Leopardstar's Honor into account. Both Leopardstar and Blackstar got made out to be far more "innocent" in the retelling of events during their respective books than what they actually acted like regarding their main series counterpart(s). True, but on the other hand, at least with Blackstar, he just seems to be the type of cat who's good at masking his emotions and any guilt he felt was largely internal anyway; he still kills Stonefur without hesitation in his flashback, never even apologizes to him or Rosetail, and it's made clear the latter two don't exactly think highly of him even in death, either. With Leopardstar, it really felt like the SE was trying hard to get you to like her, but in doing so, we get reveals like her banishing her own father just because he disagreed with her, or changed scenes altogether, like deciding to stand up to BloodClan without Firestar having to convince her first. Wait, I'm seemingly remembering Blackstar trying to apologize to Stonefur at least (or perhaps he was moreso just thinking about doing so but only internally)? But anyways, I do actually really like that neither Rosetail nor Stonefur forgive Blackstar for him killing them. It was especially refreshing to see considering that Mistystar, Feathertail and Stormfur are all shown to have forgiven Leopardstar for her involvment quite quickly (though it did take Feathertail much longer which was a good thing to have as her conflict during ASiR although I'd never be able to forgive her, or Blackstar, if I had been in such a situation ngl). Personally, I hope that Stonefur never forgives either Blackstar or even Leopardstar for how they treated him/what they did. Leopardstar's SE managed to strengthen my dislike of her, to be honest. They kinda tried to turn her into a watered down version of a "girlboss" character but failed miserably, in my opinion.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Apr 21, 2023 9:17:49 GMT -5
I feel like how easy it is to forgive somebody depends more on how legitimate their attempts to stick to the straight and narrow and do the right thing after they make their turnaround, rather than their actual crimes. Put these two people before me 1) a domestic abuser who used to beat his wife before stopping but still regularly belittles her and treats her poorly, even if he doesn't beat her anymore 2) an actual murderer who regrets his crime, served his punishment, and is now firmly sticking on the straight and narrow The second person's crime was worse, but I would still find the first person much harder to forgive.
For me, it's probably Blackstar, simply for being the guy that stuck to as close to the right path as possible and tried to do the right thing. The closest thing he has to a major blunder was the Sol incident, and that wasn't even driven by malice, just a loss of faith in StarClan. It sure is worth noting that when ThunderClan got attacked in the middle of the night by two other Clans for no reason other than sheer pettiness, he was not heading either of them and actually gave the order to protect ThunderClan.
Onestar is hard to judge because for all his horseshit, his confession was followed almost immediately by his death, and he seemed to go out knowing what he did was wrong and was willing to make amends. He actually probably would have won for me if not for the last book of TBC. His tendency to still be an unsecure shithead towards the Dark Forest brigade - some of which didn't even do shit worse than him - definitely soured me on him, though.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Apr 22, 2023 3:13:23 GMT -5
nobody really cared about stonefur anyways i forgive leopardstar the most
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 22, 2023 3:56:44 GMT -5
nobody really cared about stonefur anyways i forgive leopardstar the most Not sure where you got that notion from because plenty of people in this fandom cared about Stonefur (and still do). Kind of a weirdly generalized thing to write on your part... If you meant in-universe, plenty of cats did care about him there as well and were affected by his death (such as his sister Mistystar, Feathertail, Stormfur and Leopardstar, as well as even his own killer Blackstar).
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Apr 22, 2023 9:23:22 GMT -5
nobody really cared about stonefur anyways i forgive leopardstar the most Not sure where you got that notion from because plenty of people in this fandom cared about Stonefur (and still do). Kind of a weirdly generalized thing to write on your part... actually??? he was such a plain toast cat and really had nothing on his sister, he was always such a background character. basically his dad with less lore also kind of a weird thing to label the sentence as "weirdly generalized" when it was literally just a statement... do you think i'm trying to speak for you or something????
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dryleaf
Currently questioning reality.
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Post by dryleaf on Apr 22, 2023 9:41:17 GMT -5
So, basically, the options here are; Two cats who have committed war crimes, a collaborator, or a cowardly, deadbeat daddy.
...
Where's the "No, they all suck" option?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2023 9:56:15 GMT -5
Not sure where you got that notion from because plenty of people in this fandom cared about Stonefur (and still do). Kind of a weirdly generalized thing to write on your part... actually??? he was such a plain toast cat and really had nothing on his sister, he was always such a background character. basically his dad with less lore also kind of a weird thing to label the sentence as "weirdly generalized" when it was literally just a statement... do you think i'm trying to speak for you or something???? I hear what you're saying and your opinion is absolutely valid, not everyone will like the same characters and that's totally cool! However, I will admit that as someone who does like Stonefur a lot your comments come off as trying to speak a fact rather than an opinion. Specifically the "nobody" in your initial comment. It suggests that it's how everybody feels.
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Post by Quill on Apr 22, 2023 12:19:13 GMT -5
actually??? he was such a plain toast cat and really had nothing on his sister, he was always such a background character. basically his dad with less lore also kind of a weird thing to label the sentence as "weirdly generalized" when it was literally just a statement... do you think i'm trying to speak for you or something???? I hear what you're saying and your opinion is absolutely valid, not everyone will like the same characters and that's totally cool! However, I will admit that as someone who does like Stonefur a lot your comments come off as trying to speak a fact rather than an opinion. Specifically the "nobody" in your initial comment. It suggests that it's how everybody feels. I, for one, love Stonefur.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 22, 2023 13:34:39 GMT -5
Not sure where you got that notion from because plenty of people in this fandom cared about Stonefur (and still do). Kind of a weirdly generalized thing to write on your part... actually??? he was such a plain toast cat and really had nothing on his sister, he was always such a background character. basically his dad with less lore also kind of a weird thing to label the sentence as "weirdly generalized" when it was literally just a statement... do you think i'm trying to speak for you or something???? And you are allowed to have that opinion of him, of course. That being said, the first part of your initial comment was "nobody really cared about Stonefur anyways", which did came off as if you were trying to speak for more than yourself as well as it seeming more like a fact than an opinion of yours due to the wording, even if that was apparently not your intention.
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Post by Quill on Apr 22, 2023 15:18:14 GMT -5
In my option, none of them deserves forgiveness. Especially not Blackstar, Skystar, or Leopardstar.
I chose Onestar though, because it's not really his fault that he was thrust into a leadership role he definitely was not ready for.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2023 15:30:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I wish there was an option about not forgiving any of them. Maybe that would defeat the purpose of the poll though since it's just about who the "easiest" is and not necessarily about if they deserve it or not. Still, forgiveness isn't so black and white in terms of the characters they're throwing at us here.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Apr 23, 2023 10:18:25 GMT -5
actually??? he was such a plain toast cat and really had nothing on his sister, he was always such a background character. basically his dad with less lore also kind of a weird thing to label the sentence as "weirdly generalized" when it was literally just a statement... do you think i'm trying to speak for you or something???? I hear what you're saying and your opinion is absolutely valid, not everyone will like the same characters and that's totally cool! However, I will admit that as someone who does like Stonefur a lot your comments come off as trying to speak a fact rather than an opinion. Specifically the "nobody" in your initial comment. It suggests that it's how everybody feels. I wasn't being serious. I was more referring to myself. Of course I don't know every single person's opinion. My main confusion was why that one single sentence was described as "weirdly generalising" like the single sentence was "weird" in any way. The statement "nobody likes [thing]" is quite common, I don't understand why it's "weird" or out of the norm to say that. It wasn't anything offensive either so I don't see why it was necessary to have been quoted or called out at all. And the overall wording in the quote itself was giving off the energy of a callout. "Kind of a weirdly generalised thing to write, on your part". When given this sentence and no context, you'd jump to the conclusion that the thing it's responding to is offensive and/or strange.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 23, 2023 11:06:59 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying and your opinion is absolutely valid, not everyone will like the same characters and that's totally cool! However, I will admit that as someone who does like Stonefur a lot your comments come off as trying to speak a fact rather than an opinion. Specifically the "nobody" in your initial comment. It suggests that it's how everybody feels. I wasn't being serious. I was more referring to myself. Of course I don't know every single person's opinion. My main confusion was why that one single sentence was described as "weirdly generalising" like the single sentence was "weird" in any way. The statement "nobody likes [thing]" is quite common, I don't understand why it's "weird" or out of the norm to say that. It wasn't anything offensive either so I don't see why it was necessary to have been quoted or called out at all. And the overall wording in the quote itself was giving off the energy of a callout. "Kind of a weirdly generalised thing to write, on your part". When given this sentence and no context, you'd jump to the conclusion that the thing it's responding to is offensive and/or strange. It was not meant to be a callout though. I merely saw the wording of "nobody really cared about Stonefur anyways" as a form of generalization and thus thought it was "weird". I'm sorry that you felt as if I've called you out as that was not my intention. Not everything has to be offensive for people to react to it though, by the way. I was merely reacting to a statement that seemed weird to me, not offensive. Edit: Also, another thing since you did state your comment was not serious, there were no tone indicators to suggest that. Though I know it can be difficult to convey something as a joking comment via just text sometimes (and often for other people, such as myself, to then read it as such instead of taking it serious). Whenever I make a joke/joking post, I'm usually putting /j or /hj behind that sentence just to be sure. Of course, that's just a suggestion and not something one has to do.
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#FF55A3
Name Colour
Apricity
Bravelands is too slept on.
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Post by Apricity on Apr 25, 2023 2:53:55 GMT -5
Out of all of them, Blackstar is the only one who's worst actions were under the direction of someone else. The others thought up their own actions and went through with them on their own. I would probably still debate forgiving him without knowing his PoV though.
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