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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 19, 2023 18:59:16 GMT -5
In ALITM, Squirrelflight is ready to go back into the Dark Forest to face Ashfur for a final time. However, she's dissuaded from this plan on grounds that it would only give Ashfur the attention he wants and that the clan needs her alive. Instead, Graystripe carries a message from her and dies by Ashfur, seemingly indicating taking her place.
What do you think of this? I know some people would have liked to see Squirrelflight confront Ashfur one last time, but speaking for myself here, I personally felt like it was a far greater win to not even give him the time of day. Ashfur going ballistic after Graystripe telling him he wasn't worth Squirrelflight's time was a much greater victory, imo, than any she could have achieved by going there and arguing with him again. But what do you think?
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 19, 2023 19:08:05 GMT -5
I've always been torn on this. On one hand, it would've been great to see her confront him one last time, but on the other hand, her not doing so felt no less satisfying. Still kinda wish someone related to Squirrelflight or even Ashfur himself had confronted him, though.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 19, 2023 19:18:17 GMT -5
I've always been torn on this. On one hand, it would've been great to see her confront him one last time, but on the other hand, her not doing so felt no less satisfying. Still kinda wish someone related to Squirrelflight or even Ashfur himself had confronted him, though. I think the best compromise is to have Hollyleaf on the Starclan squad. Have him replace Redtail, who was truly useless.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 19, 2023 22:42:54 GMT -5
I'm in the same boat as you. I would have loved to see Squirrelflight confront him and just tear him to shreds verbally and emotionally, but I think Graystripe has a point that Squirrelflight being in the Dark Forest would just give Ashfur what he wants. Might be more poignant since even with Ashfur's insane narcissistic victim complex, he's not even worth it to the cat he obsesses about the most.
Also, missed oppurtunity to have Hollyleaf on the StarClan patrol. Why is Redtail there? Hollyleaf herself has more of a connection to Ashfur than anyone who was there aside from Firestar and the protagonists. I think it would have been interesting to delve deeper into the fact that Ashfur's murderer got away scott-free and his death covered up for years.
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 20, 2023 0:22:12 GMT -5
Like others here have said: torn. It would've been great to see Squirrelflight confront Ashfur one last time, but it's also very satisfying to see Ashfur not be given the time of day, like he's so beneath Squirrelflight he's not worth a microsecond of her time.
And I've said it before, saying it again: it's a complete joke that Hollyleaf had literally no presence in TBC besides a brief cameo in Lost Stars (and that doesn't even really count as TBC, it's pre LS...) Tf was that about? I was looking forward to see her go on a murderous rampage when she discovered Ashfur was causing all the chaos...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 20, 2023 5:20:33 GMT -5
I also agree with the opinion that, while it would've been awesome to see Squirrelflight rip Ashfur a new one, her not showing up to give him even that type of acknowledgment or the satisfaction of ever seeing her again after what he did to her and her mate as well as the rest of the Clans, was a much more powerful moment and even a power move on her part in the end since she didn't owe him anything (I know she intially wanted to go but am glad the others convinced her not to). Of course, poor Graystripe had to pay the price of bearing the brunt of Ashfur's wrath, resulting in him physically lashing out at the elder after hearing her message, but Graystripe most likely knew the risk of being the messenger and it was his time (to die) anyways.
Big agree on the lack of Hollyleaf in TBC being a complete waste of potential for her. I already said this on my thread (while reading those six books, ALitM in particular) but why the heck did they include Redtail instead of her?! Or why did they include freaking Onestar or even Needletail? Yes, I know in case of the latter it was for her reunion with Violetshine as well as them both wrecking Darktail together once and for all but still. Replacing Redtail, Onestar and Needtail with Hollyleaf, Brindleface and Ferncloud would've just made much more sense in terms of all three cats having a connection to Ashfur (be it familiar or murderous lol). Or at the very least, including just the former two (Hollyleaf and Brindleface). I would've loved to see Hollyleaf be the one to kill Ashfur again (either sacrificing herself doing so or just beating him and being done with it to return to StarClan once more). I feel like these two could've had a rivalry similarly to that of Firestar and Tigerstar, in the sense of them both becoming each others nemesis even beyond death.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 20, 2023 11:00:08 GMT -5
I also agree with the opinion that, while it would've been awesome to see Squirrelflight rip Ashfur a new one, her not showing up to give him even that type of acknowledgment or the satisfaction of ever seeing her again after what he did to her and her mate as well as the rest of the Clans, was a much more powerful moment and even a power move on her part in the end since she didn't owe him anything (I know she intially wanted to go but am glad the others convinced her not to). Of course, poor Graystripe had to pay the price of bearing the brunt of Ashfur's wrath, resulting in him physically lashing out at the elder after hearing her message, but Graystripe most likely knew the risk of being the messenger and it was his time (to die) anyways. Big agree on the lack of Hollyleaf in TBC being a complete waste of potential for her. I already said this on my thread (while reading those six books, ALitM in particular) but why the heck did they include Redtail instead of her?! Or why did they include freaking Onestar or even Needletail? Yes, I know in case of the latter it was for her reunion with Violetshine as well as them both wrecking Darktail together once and for all but still. Replacing Redtail, Onestar and Needtail with Hollyleaf, Brindleface and Ferncloud would've just made much more sense in terms of all three cats having a connection to Ashfur (be it familiar or murderous lol). Or at the very least, including just the former two (Hollyleaf and Brindleface). I would've loved to see Hollyleaf be the one to kill Ashfur again (either sacrificing herself doing so or just beating him and being done with it to return to StarClan once more). I feel like these two could've had a rivalry similarly to that of Firestar and Tigerstar, in the sense of them both becoming each others nemesis even beyond death. I like Onestar being there because he serves well as a mean Starclan cat. It helps Bristlefrost's characterization quite a bit when she defends the Dark Forest cats from his insults as well as Rootspring and Shadowsight's inner thoughts about what the difference between Starclan and the Dark Forest really is. Given the ending of TBC is a huge assertion of Starclan's rules needing to change and them having made many mistakes, I think he does serve a narrative presence even if he's not well-connected to Ashfur. That said, I would absolutely replace Larksong, so I think between him and Redtail, you could have shoved in some better candidates from Starclan.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 20, 2023 11:13:14 GMT -5
I also agree with the opinion that, while it would've been awesome to see Squirrelflight rip Ashfur a new one, her not showing up to give him even that type of acknowledgment or the satisfaction of ever seeing her again after what he did to her and her mate as well as the rest of the Clans, was a much more powerful moment and even a power move on her part in the end since she didn't owe him anything (I know she intially wanted to go but am glad the others convinced her not to). Of course, poor Graystripe had to pay the price of bearing the brunt of Ashfur's wrath, resulting in him physically lashing out at the elder after hearing her message, but Graystripe most likely knew the risk of being the messenger and it was his time (to die) anyways. Big agree on the lack of Hollyleaf in TBC being a complete waste of potential for her. I already said this on my thread (while reading those six books, ALitM in particular) but why the heck did they include Redtail instead of her?! Or why did they include freaking Onestar or even Needletail? Yes, I know in case of the latter it was for her reunion with Violetshine as well as them both wrecking Darktail together once and for all but still. Replacing Redtail, Onestar and Needtail with Hollyleaf, Brindleface and Ferncloud would've just made much more sense in terms of all three cats having a connection to Ashfur (be it familiar or murderous lol). Or at the very least, including just the former two (Hollyleaf and Brindleface). I would've loved to see Hollyleaf be the one to kill Ashfur again (either sacrificing herself doing so or just beating him and being done with it to return to StarClan once more). I feel like these two could've had a rivalry similarly to that of Firestar and Tigerstar, in the sense of them both becoming each others nemesis even beyond death. I like Onestar being there because he serves well as a mean Starclan cat. It helps Bristlefrost's characterization quite a bit when she defends the Dark Forest cats from his insults as well as Rootspring and Shadowsight's inner thoughts about what the difference between Starclan and the Dark Forest really is. Given the ending of TBC is a huge assertion of Starclan's rules needing to change and them having made many mistakes, I think he does serve a narrative presence even if he's not well-connected to Ashfur. That said, I would absolutely replace Larksong, so I think between him and Redtail, you could have shoved in some better candidates from Starclan. Yeah true, I guess. Still would've replaced him but that's moreso due to personal bias rather than me not acknowledging his character potential there (which I do see the point of). So, replacing Redtail with Hollyleaf and Larksong with either Brindleface or Ferncloud would've thus instantly made for a better set-up in terms of the StarClan patrol interacting with Ashfur in particular.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Apr 20, 2023 18:20:56 GMT -5
I wouldn't have minded if either happened. Seeing Squirrelflight confront Ashfur and destroy him would have been amazing but admittedly, Graystripe's idea was great too.
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Apr 20, 2023 19:24:56 GMT -5
We all know they picked Graystripe over Squirrelflight to confront Ashfur, because they needed someone to be killed, that he’d be capable of doing so without the advantage of Bramblestar’s muscular physique from possessing his , and didn’t careless if it got shredded in the process /j.
But seriously. Redtail should have been exchanged for Brindleface, Hollyleaf or Ferncloud. Or anyone that ACTUALLY knew Ashfur while he was alive. Not someone who’s starring role was being the dead guy in a murder mystery.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 20, 2023 21:52:49 GMT -5
And I've said it before, saying it again: it's a complete joke that Hollyleaf had literally no presence in TBC besides a brief cameo in Lost Stars (and that doesn't even really count as TBC, it's pre LS...) Tf was that about? I was looking forward to see her go on a murderous rampage when she discovered Ashfur was causing all the chaos... The strange thing is that Hollyleaf was directly mentioned in ALitM by none other than Ashfur himself, thinking about how much he hates her for killing him! Ashfur was abusing and twisting the warrior code for his own ends, surely Hollyleaf of all characters would want to do something about it.
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 21, 2023 1:06:06 GMT -5
And I've said it before, saying it again: it's a complete joke that Hollyleaf had literally no presence in TBC besides a brief cameo in Lost Stars (and that doesn't even really count as TBC, it's pre LS...) Tf was that about? I was looking forward to see her go on a murderous rampage when she discovered Ashfur was causing all the chaos... The strange thing is that Hollyleaf was directly mentioned in ALitM by none other than Ashfur himself, thinking about how much he hates her for killing him! Ashfur was abusing and twisting the warrior code for his own ends, surely Hollyleaf of all characters would want to do something about it. Exactly..it's outrageous that she wasn't at the very least part of the patrol that took him down.
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