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Post by Aqua on Aug 10, 2022 12:13:56 GMT -5
What's your opinion on Nightcloud x Crowfeather?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 12:20:36 GMT -5
I went with neutral. I like it from a story telling standpoint and think it's interesting, but the pairing in itself is toxic.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 10, 2022 13:08:03 GMT -5
Neutral. In another world, it probably could have worked out? But in this one, it just doesn't. The problem with it is similar to Bumble x Dove, it was kinda doomed from the start. Nightcloud was getting old and she wanted to settle down and have a family and wanted to have a mate that would love her for her. So when Crowfeather approached her with a relationship, she probably thought that's what he wanted too.
In reality, Crowfeather was just on his second(?) rebound at that point. He lost Feathertail, then quickly jumped the gun with Leafpool, only to lose her too, and now gets with Nightcloud so he seems more loyal to his clanmates. He uses Nightcloud and Breezepelt to get over Leafpool (his only living interest at the time) while also still knowingly having feelings for Feathertail (his past interest who past away). Nightcloud, nor Breezepelt for that matter, just didn't seem to have room in his heart, to be honest.
Which is quite tragic in a way? You can see Nightcloud actually tries to make the relationship work, she's shown to be loving toward him, and try to encourage him to be around his son, she's a good mother. And you see that Breezepelt, as Breezepaw, tries his best to make his father proud of him, bending over backwards to get his approval. But he's either cold to Nightcloud, or chides and scolds Breezepelt, and only fullfils the minimalist duties of a father and mate.
Are his actions understandable? Yeah, he's been through a lot, he's been traumatized, and crushed under the weight of a lot of things, including guilt and expectations. But does it make what he did right? No. Not really. Because all it did was just start the toxic cycle of their family.
The secret gets out. Of course it does. While Leafpool and Squirrelflight get heat for their actions in ThunderClan, so does Crowfeather, and rightfully so. He broke the rules, and used his WindClan family, so the dots just start to connect at that point. And honestly, I think OotS brought out the worst of all of them. Not saying they're all on the same level of fault, but they were all definitely at their lowest points. Nightcloud gets angry at Crowfeather for essentially emotionally cheating on her, and being horribly cold to her and her child, while also dragging their family name through the mud with a scandal. While Breezepelt thinks his father's neglect is because he prefers his TC children more, thinking that's why he always seemed to (ironically) favor them before the secret got out. Which later leads him to turn to the Dark Forest's manipulation, which only makes him worse.
Crowfeather, who is very much sitting on the side, his inaction making things pile up. He throws Leafpool under the bus to save face, uses his family to look loyal, and rejects his children in TC. Then later lets his sons tear into each other, and only gets involved when Leafpool does, his priorities are just not in the right place. Especially since we find out he's still bitter about Leafpool choosing her clan over him. Nightcloud drags him away from Leafpool, he turns on Nightcloud, and Breezepelt jumps to protect his mother. It shows just how horribly dysfunctional this family is. It makes me pity them.
In the end, it takes Breezepelt nearly murdering his own half-brother for Crowfeather to finally do something for once, but he still throws the blame elsewhere and doesn't acknowledge HIS part in any of this. This is why CT was such a necessary book. We see from Crowfeather's point of view, that at one point even he wished his son had died, which is just...uneasy to read about. His son is isolated in WindClan, looked down on, and no matter how hard he tried he'd never get the approval of certain cats ever again. But that's realistic. Not everyone was going to forgive him. But in a way Breezepelt was a reflection of Crowfeather because of that. He missed his chance with Hollyleaf, Jayfeather wants nothing to do with him, and Lionblaze was at least willing to forgive him. Leafpool and him finally buried the hatchet, and put their relationship behind them. While Crowfeather also had to finally settle things with his own family in WindClan.
They weren't just something he could use to his convenience for loyalty. They were his family, his clanmates, they were other breathing cats that he new for a long time, not tools. Seeing how Nightcloud was through Crowfeather's eyes is somewhat bitter sweet, because you can see she's a very loyal, brave, beautiful, and intelligent warrior, that was well respected in her clan, even he couldn't help but swoon for her again after their break up. Getting jealous over a kittypet, and then ridiculously thinking they should get back together. Thankfully, Nightcloud, the more mature of the two of them, obviously turned him down. That ship has sailed.
The same with his son, the two of them finally came to a mutual understanding, and respect one another, and even Breezepelt turned out to be a great father, which is very sweet. And even though he's bettering himself as a cat, it's interesting to see others still remind him of his own actions back in OotS.
So honestly, in another world? They could have worked out. I think if not for the unfortunate circumstances of how this relationship started, the two of them could have had the potential to be cranky old in love couple. But whereas things are right now, I prefer it more, with them just being mutually respectful past partners that make things work for the sake of their son and kin.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 10, 2022 13:13:07 GMT -5
even if my opinion on nightcloud changed, i still despise night x crow. i still firmly believe that they both mutually used each other and expected things out of each other that were impossible, which caused bitterness between them.
nightcloud used him for kits, and she was delusional in thinking she could force him to love her just bc she has a kit with him...and in turn, crowfeather was delusional in thinking he could force a happy family image just to selfishly boost his reputation.
both r at fault. both were toxic when they were together.
i just will never understand how some people can perceive this as nightcloud actually loving crowfeather and being upset because of that....i believe they never loved eachother romantically at all. there is some respect, since crowfeather respects her as a warrior, but as a partner, i dont think there was much respect bc they were both usuing each other as tools to get what they want.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 10, 2022 13:18:41 GMT -5
even if my opinion on nightcloud changed, i still despise night x crow. i still firmly believe that they both mutually used each other and expected things out of each other that were impossible, which caused bitterness between them. nightcloud used him for kits, and she was delusional in thinking she could force him to love her just bc she has a kit with him...and in turn, crowfeather was delusional in thinking he could force a happy family image just to selfishly boost his reputation. both r at fault. both were toxic when they were together. i just will never understand how some people can perceive this as nightcloud actually loving crowfeather and being upset because of that....i believe they never loved eachother romantically at all. there is some respect, since crowfeather respects her as a warrior, but as a partner, i dont think there was much respect bc they were both usuing each other as tools to get what they want. Because wanting children and wanting your spouse to love you isn't wrong? I don't get the narrative that she used him.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 10, 2022 13:21:05 GMT -5
even if my opinion on nightcloud changed, i still despise night x crow. i still firmly believe that they both mutually used each other and expected things out of each other that were impossible, which caused bitterness between them. nightcloud used him for kits, and she was delusional in thinking she could force him to love her just bc she has a kit with him...and in turn, crowfeather was delusional in thinking he could force a happy family image just to selfishly boost his reputation. both r at fault. both were toxic when they were together. i just will never understand how some people can perceive this as nightcloud actually loving crowfeather and being upset because of that....i believe they never loved eachother romantically at all. there is some respect, since crowfeather respects her as a warrior, but as a partner, i dont think there was much respect bc they were both usuing each other as tools to get what they want. Because wanting children and wanting your spouse to love you isn't wrong? I don't get the narrative that she used him. this is how i always personally saw it: she was old and feared never having kits so when he asked her, she jumped at the chance to have kits at last. she used him to have kits and live out a fantasy that she had someone who loved her, but thats just delisional bc crow never would love her, and part of her should have known this bc i doubt they were buddies or close when he was na apprentice (which would be weird). but she thought she could force this man she doesnt know that well to love her. forcing ur spouse to love u just bc u gave them a child is icky to me. and thats just how i perceive nightcloud during her relationship with crowfeather.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 10, 2022 13:29:00 GMT -5
Because wanting children and wanting your spouse to love you isn't wrong? I don't get the narrative that she used him. this is how i always personally saw it: she was old and feared never having kits so when he asked her, she jumped at the chance to have kits at last. she used him to have kits and live out a fantasy that she had someone who loved her, but thats just delisional bc crow never would love her, and part of her should have known this bc i doubt they were buddies or close when he was na apprentice (which would be weird). but she thought she could force this man she doesnt know that well to love her. forcing ur spouse to love u just bc u gave them a child is icky to me. and thats just how i perceive nightcloud during her relationship with crowfeather. If she used him to have kits then there's literally no reason for her to stay with him all the way until CT, when they break up after the events of TLH. If it was just about kits she could have left him Sisters style, literally the moment she became pregnant, or after she had Breezepelt, after he was apprentice, after he became a warrior, there's literally plenty of opportunities for her to leave Crowfeather if all she wanted was kits, throughout Breezepelt's life time. And there would have been no reason for her to try and make their family work, let alone try to be a loving and affectionate mate to Crowfeather, who in return was just always "tapped out" and cold to her. Also they're clanmates. Saying she doesn't know him would be....nonsensical. Clanmates literally have to see one another everyday, go on patrols, and hunt together, fight side by side, and go to gatherings?? Even in CT, when they're broken up, they do just that, even when Breezepelt isn't involved. They are literally going to see and know about one another regardless because that's how clan society works, they weren't strangers, they just wouldn't know one another's "personal beliefs". Hence the idea of her thinking Crowfeather liked her isn't farfetched, just as much as her not knowing that he was using her to save face prior to the gathering reveal. Also the idea that she was trying to "force" him into anything is just...the connotations of suggesting that is strange. Because their relationship was mutually abiding. Nightcloud wanting her spouse to love her really was no different than Bumblestripe wanting Dovewing to love him, when in reality, both of their partners didn't.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 10, 2022 13:34:07 GMT -5
this is how i always personally saw it: she was old and feared never having kits so when he asked her, she jumped at the chance to have kits at last. she used him to have kits and live out a fantasy that she had someone who loved her, but thats just delisional bc crow never would love her, and part of her should have known this bc i doubt they were buddies or close when he was na apprentice (which would be weird). but she thought she could force this man she doesnt know that well to love her. forcing ur spouse to love u just bc u gave them a child is icky to me. and thats just how i perceive nightcloud during her relationship with crowfeather. If she used him to have kits then there's literally no reason for her to stay with him all the way until CT, when they break up after the events of TLH. If it was just about kits she could have left him Sisters style, literally the moment she became pregnant, or after she had kits, after he was apprentice, after he became a warrior, there's literally plenty of opportunities for her to leave Crowfeather if all she wanted was kits, throughout Breezepelt's life time. And there would have been no reason for her to try and make their family work, let alone try to be a loving and affectionate mate to Crowfeather, who in return was just always "tapped out" and cold to her. Also they're clanmates. Saying she doesn't know him would be....nonsensical. Clanmates literally have to see one another everyday, go on patrols, and hunt together, fight side by side, and go to gatherings?? Even in CT, when they're broken up, they do just that, even when Breezepelt isn't involved. They are literally going to see and know about one another regardless because that's how clan society works, they weren't strangers, they just wouldn't know one another's "personal beliefs". Hence the idea of her thinking Crowfeather liked her isn't farfetched, just as much as her not knowing that he was using her to save face prior to the gathering reveal. Also the idea that she was trying to "force" him into anything is just...the connotations of suggesting that is strange. Because their relationship was mutually abiding. Nightcloud wanting her spouse to love her really was no different than Bumblestripe wanting Dovewing to love him, when in reality, both of their partners didn't. she stayed bc she was delusional thinking she could make crowfeather love her just bc she had his child...thats why she stayed in my perspective. asking a random clanmate out of the blue to be ur mate when u just got back from a journey and just came back from running off with some other girl is weird. its even weirder that nightcloud accepted...to me, that just shows she was desperate for something and became delusional into thinking she could get love out of it when nothing lines up--like i said, crow just came back from running off with another girl, why would she think she could get love out of him not long after he came back?? just gonna agree to disagree bc i have always seen night x crow this way and i dont think i'll change my mind on it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 10, 2022 13:43:18 GMT -5
If she used him to have kits then there's literally no reason for her to stay with him all the way until CT, when they break up after the events of TLH. If it was just about kits she could have left him Sisters style, literally the moment she became pregnant, or after she had kits, after he was apprentice, after he became a warrior, there's literally plenty of opportunities for her to leave Crowfeather if all she wanted was kits, throughout Breezepelt's life time. And there would have been no reason for her to try and make their family work, let alone try to be a loving and affectionate mate to Crowfeather, who in return was just always "tapped out" and cold to her. Also they're clanmates. Saying she doesn't know him would be....nonsensical. Clanmates literally have to see one another everyday, go on patrols, and hunt together, fight side by side, and go to gatherings?? Even in CT, when they're broken up, they do just that, even when Breezepelt isn't involved. They are literally going to see and know about one another regardless because that's how clan society works, they weren't strangers, they just wouldn't know one another's "personal beliefs". Hence the idea of her thinking Crowfeather liked her isn't farfetched, just as much as her not knowing that he was using her to save face prior to the gathering reveal. Also the idea that she was trying to "force" him into anything is just...the connotations of suggesting that is strange. Because their relationship was mutually abiding. Nightcloud wanting her spouse to love her really was no different than Bumblestripe wanting Dovewing to love him, when in reality, both of their partners didn't. she stayed bc she was delusional thinking she could make crowfeather love her just bc she had his child...thats why she stayed in my perspective. asking a random clanmate out of the blue to be ur mate when u just got back from a journey and just came back from running off with some other girl is weird. its even weirder that nightcloud accepted...to me, that just shows she was desperate for something and became delusional into thinking she could get love out of it when nothing lines up--like i said, crow just came back from running off with another girl, why would she think she could get love out of him not long after he came back?? just gonna agree to disagree bc i have always seen night x crow this way and i dont think i'll change my mind on it. Crowfeather running off with a medicine cat, even if it's suspicious, no one is going to actually think it's romantic in a serious light, because not only is Leafpool a ThunderClan cat, but she's also a medicine cat. They'll think it's more so to do with leaking information, or something StarClan related, over a medicine cat actually being naieve enough to fall in love. (Which just shows how much respect they had for Leafpool, and why everyone was so shocked when the secret got out). Nonetheless, even if it was romantic, not even Crowfeather knew about Leafpool's pregnancy, and the three had to go through several books just to find out the truth themselves. And again, by your reasoning, even if she thought she could make Crowfeather love her because of their child, Breezepelt very much wasn't a child anymore by the time he was a warrior, and even when the secret got out. And they were still together. There's no reason for her to "try and make him love her" if their child is fully grown and independent at that point, and their family's reputation is already in the mud, if anything breaking up with him after the events of POT would have benefitted her. Loving your spouse because they can bear your children, again, not as weird as people may think. Bumblestripe, ironically, does this as well with Dovewing. When he talks about kits with her, complimenting that she'd be a great mother. And then later when he asks her if she and him could try again, and have kits, hoping that kits would mend their relationship and make her happy, so they could all be happy. Having children to have a happy relationship is not uncommon. That's just how some couples work realistically. We can agree to disagree, I was just trying to make sense of your reasoning is all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2022 13:57:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I was under the impression that Night x Crow wasn't supposed to be liked from a relationship standpoint? They are depicted as loveless, they're purposefully written as constantly quarreling. I really don't think it's supposed to be a ship that people think is healthy or good (unless from simply a written standpoint as I stated in my initial post).
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Bisexual
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Aug 10, 2022 15:27:47 GMT -5
I agree with ❅Maplefrost❅ that NightCrow (awesome ship name though) could have potentially worked out in specific AUs. But in canon? Big nope!
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Aug 11, 2022 7:27:51 GMT -5
Dislike--except in Crowfeather's Trial.
I really like their maturity in CT. They talked things out and agreed they didn't love each other, but they would be on friendly enough terms to support Breezepelt. I also like how jealous Crowfeather was of Pickle, and I like how Nightcloud encouraged Crowfeather to visit Leafpool--she was putting her own jealousy and dislike aside for the sake of her son. They seem to respect each other now, even if they agree they'll never be mates again.
Hence why I'm the only one who has voted like...
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Post by cheeselamps on Aug 11, 2022 23:56:05 GMT -5
Neutral, totally. After CT, their relationship definitely changed for the better, and it reminded me of the conversation Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter had that one time: "I feel like if we met each other as the people we are now, things would be totally different with us."
"Yeah, but if we hadn't met each other until now, we wouldn't be the people we are now." I'm pretty sure NightCrow could have worked out just fine in another time and another world, but in this one, they share a healthy sign of a mature friendship, and that's just as good as the romantic alternative.
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Post by Stormwind on Aug 12, 2022 9:50:05 GMT -5
Dislike. I haven't read Crowfeather's Trial yet so I may be missing a lot of context, but from what I've read in the main series, I think Nightcloud deserves better. Crowfeather is a bad father and a bad mate, and just not a good person who simultaneously won't let go of the past while ignoring his own past faults.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 10:00:18 GMT -5
The storyline is good, I like it. But if we’re talking about the pair itself then meh. It’s clear they didn’t really like each other and I’m glad it got solved
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Post by Punkpaw on Aug 12, 2022 10:22:54 GMT -5
I mean, writingwise? It's fine. It's clearly an awful, unhealthy relationship and the story does not try to pretend otherwise or sugarcoat it. They even eventually just straight up break up and are good as friends. (And it actually is built on friendship and loyalty, not just "acquaintances". Stuff like the codebreaker arc makes it pretty clear that the two of them, ironically enough, have each other's backs more now than they ever did while mates.) I actually appreciate what it brings to the narrative.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 23, 2022 21:24:43 GMT -5
Bump
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