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Post by Aqua on Jul 9, 2022 14:06:30 GMT -5
I'm rereading Hollyleaf's Story, and I realized how much of a coward she was when she didn't want to return to her Clan because she killed Ashfur. I don't know, something about her behavior bothered me. I guess now that I'm older, I don't like how she acted, especially when she told Leafpool to eat those deathberries.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2022 14:07:45 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, I hate Holly. She's my 7th least favorite warrior cat.
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Post by Aqua on Jul 9, 2022 14:27:39 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, I hate Holly. She's my 7th least favorite warrior cat. I don't know if I hate Hollyleaf but I dislike her in her novella at least. Her friendship with Fallen Leaves was a good read, but I might dislike her in Po3. She used to be my favorite character.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 9, 2022 14:27:42 GMT -5
i love hollyleaf, so we can agree to disagree on the coward front, but i wanted to say something about this!
i think hollyleaf is taking after leafpool in that sense. she is taking the full burden. by hiding away, she thinks she is protecting everyone from herself (pushing others away to protect oneself is also a thing crowfeather did too. wow she is really becoming her parents in those ways lol).
leafpool did that once the secret was out: blaming herself, accepting all the blame and burden that came with it so no one else had to get hurt anymore. crowfeather pushed others away to keep himself from getting hurt-- how he tried pushing leafpool away, how he was currently pushing away his windclan family, etc.
hollyleaf genuinely believed thunderclan and her family were better off without some monster like her. she killed a clan mate and ruined her family. like leafpool, she punished herself--with self imposed exile in the caves. punishing oneself to save ur kin from having to put punishment on u. for both hollyleaf and leafpool, they were trying to save firestar and their kin from the shame of needing to see them get punished publically and bring more attention onto them all.
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Post by seantheskyhunter on Jul 10, 2022 5:20:40 GMT -5
Disagree strongly. She should remain the third instead of that Mary sue
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jul 10, 2022 9:14:32 GMT -5
In addition, Hollyleaf couldn't live with the guilt that her own birth went against the code that she was told to uphold her whole life. I think it goes more deeply than "she was a coward".
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 10, 2022 10:59:04 GMT -5
I disagree with her being a coward, for once, I agree with Lady/Briar.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 10, 2022 18:26:51 GMT -5
i love hollyleaf, so we can agree to disagree on the coward front, but i wanted to say something about this! i think hollyleaf is taking after leafpool in that sense. she is taking the full burden. by hiding away, she thinks she is protecting everyone from herself (pushing others away to protect oneself is also a thing crowfeather did too. wow she is really becoming her parents in those ways lol). leafpool did that once the secret was out: blaming herself, accepting all the blame and burden that came with it so no one else had to get hurt anymore. crowfeather pushed others away to keep himself from getting hurt-- how he tried pushing leafpool away, how he was currently pushing away his windclan family, etc. hollyleaf genuinely believed thunderclan and her family were better off without some monster like her. she killed a clan mate and ruined her family. like leafpool, she punished herself--with self imposed exile in the caves. punishing oneself to save ur kin from having to put punishment on u. for both hollyleaf and leafpool, they were trying to save firestar and their kin from the shame of needing to see them get punished publically and bring more attention onto them all. I do agree with this and think its true, but I also don’t think its mutually exclusive with cowardice. i think it’s a mix of good intentions (self-imposed exile and carrying the burden) but also Hollyleaf being too scared to face her shame and the clan’s judgement of her actions.
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Post by Aqua on Jul 10, 2022 23:19:23 GMT -5
i love hollyleaf, so we can agree to disagree on the coward front, but i wanted to say something about this! i think hollyleaf is taking after leafpool in that sense. she is taking the full burden. by hiding away, she thinks she is protecting everyone from herself (pushing others away to protect oneself is also a thing crowfeather did too. wow she is really becoming her parents in those ways lol). leafpool did that once the secret was out: blaming herself, accepting all the blame and burden that came with it so no one else had to get hurt anymore. crowfeather pushed others away to keep himself from getting hurt-- how he tried pushing leafpool away, how he was currently pushing away his windclan family, etc. hollyleaf genuinely believed thunderclan and her family were better off without some monster like her. she killed a clan mate and ruined her family. like leafpool, she punished herself--with self imposed exile in the caves. punishing oneself to save ur kin from having to put punishment on u. for both hollyleaf and leafpool, they were trying to save firestar and their kin from the shame of needing to see them get punished publically and bring more attention onto them all. Hollyleaf ran away because she killed Ashfur. She never felt bad for what she did and she knew her Clan would judge her for it. It's written in the novella. She didn't run off to save her brothers. She was a coward and ran away from her mistake. She knew exactly what she was doing, attempting to kill her own mother and murdered Ashfur in cold blood. Honestly, I used to love Hollyleaf when I was younger.. but rereading her book, she doesn't own up to her own actions, not even about the Leafpool situation. It's thanks to Fallen Leaves that made her realize she was loved, and she only came back because Lionblaze asked her to. But Hollyleaf was cruel, she wanted her own mother to die, and killed a cat because he was going to spill the beans, yet she was the one who did it anyway. I understand that she was angry and hurt and felt abandoned by Leafpool, but what she did was unforgivable to her. Edit: I suppose there was some good in her killing Ashfur since he was a danger to the Clan, but her actions toward Leafpool excuses nothing. Hollyleaf shamed and wanted to kill her mother.
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Post by Punkpaw on Jul 11, 2022 0:35:03 GMT -5
The sage chef Mrs. Cormaci once said that if you teach kids their whole lives that hurting each other is wrong and killing is bad, then hand them weapons and ship them off to go fight your wars and kill other people for you, you're going to seriously mess up something in their heads for the rest of their lives. It's the same principle here. The Clans all teach that the warrior code is to be respected and followed and protects and guides their entire way of life, and Hollyleaf took those teachings to heart - even moreso than Jayfeather, who for a long time held the position that being one of the Three made him "greater than Starclan", and Lionblaze, who went outside the code plenty of times to fool around with pretty Windclan she-cats and receive tutoring from his grandpa's fascist archnemesis. How well do you expect her to take learning that not only was she lied to for years by family that she loved and respected dearly but ALSO that her very existence violates the code she's been taught her entire life is the basis of morality and goodness in the Clans' way of life in multiple ways?
Hell, Jayfeather and Lionblaze didn't even take the code that seriously and they were still pissed at everyone involved for over a year. It's frankly a wonder Hollyleaf managed to not only reconcile her existence to the status of the code but even managed to bring herself to forgive and have a relationship with her mother before getting iced.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jul 11, 2022 15:20:37 GMT -5
I'll never understand why people think Hollyleaf killing Ashfur was an inherently bad thing. The dude literally tried to burn her and her siblings alive. He needed to die
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 15:22:00 GMT -5
I'll never understand why people think Hollyleaf killing Ashfur was an inherently bad thing. The dude literally tried to burn her and her siblings alive. He needed to die Agreed
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2022 16:01:24 GMT -5
I'll never understand why people think Hollyleaf killing Ashfur was an inherently bad thing. The dude literally tried to burn her and her siblings alive. He needed to die because cool motive, still murder. obviously people can disagree on whether it's justified in this instance, but i don't think that some fans finding it problematic is irrational or weird.
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Post by cheeselamps on Jul 12, 2022 2:32:32 GMT -5
I think Hollyleaf is, by far, one of the most human characters in Warriors. She was depressed as hell by the fact that her own existence contradicted all she ever believed in, and didn't wanted to go back because she felt like she didn't deserved it. She thought she was doing the right thing by hiding herself from others, which was obviously not the answer. This matter is more complex than just her being a coward, imo.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 1:11:05 GMT -5
if you murdered a person would you go back to your society? no? then that makes you a coward (sarcasm)
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 28, 2022 7:57:45 GMT -5
if you murdered a person would you go back to your society? no? then that makes you a coward cant tell if this is sarcasm, but unironically yes. refusing to face the consequences of your actions and choosing to hide away instead is cowardly.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 10:25:05 GMT -5
if you murdered a person would you go back to your society? no? then that makes you a coward cant tell if this is sarcasm, but unironically yes. refusing to face the consequences of your actions and choosing to hide away instead is cowardly. if you think distancing yourself from your loved ones because you don't want to hurt them is cowardly then i don't even want to hear the rest of your arguement tbh
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 10:29:19 GMT -5
i think living under the guilt of your actions is pretty normal (cough cough when you murdered a guy) and i wouldn't call her a coward for that i think she's the opposite actually, for saving ivypool and having the guts to murder the guy who threatened your family
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 28, 2022 15:20:13 GMT -5
cant tell if this is sarcasm, but unironically yes. refusing to face the consequences of your actions and choosing to hide away instead is cowardly. if you think distancing yourself from your loved ones because you don't want to hurt them is cowardly then i don't even want to hear the rest of your arguement tbh that's...not what was said, though?? you asked if not wanting to return to society after murdering someone makes you a coward, and i clarified that yes, avoiding the consequences of your bad actions because it's easier to run away is a form of cowardice. im not sure where distancing one's self from loved ones was implied in there. i don't think hollyleaf's motivation for hiding was entirely selfishly motivated. as i commented earlier, it was probably a mix of self-imposed punishment, needing time to process, and avoiding the shame she'd have to face in clan life. cowardice isn't about not "having the guts", nor is it about bad intentions. it's about avoiding doing what's right. you can be physically brave but emotionally cowardly. Hollyleaf might have been well-intentioned in not wanting to hurt her family, and that's a good instinct, but running away and letting her family think she was dead (leaving behind a soured image) was not the right choice. deciding her own punishment rather than face her clanmates' judgement was not the right choice. deciding on behalf of her loved ones regarding what does or doesn't hurt them, and denying them the chance to forgive, was not the right choice. im not saying what she did choose was easy to live with, but it's easier to decide those things yourself than to submit one's self to the judgement of others. especially for someone like Hollyleaf, whose care for what others thought of her was a central motivation of her character.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jul 28, 2022 23:01:52 GMT -5
cant tell if this is sarcasm, but unironically yes. refusing to face the consequences of your actions and choosing to hide away instead is cowardly. if you think distancing yourself from your loved ones because you don't want to hurt them is cowardly then i don't even want to hear the rest of your arguement tbh Some of your posts have been pretty hostile. Please calm down dude
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 29, 2022 15:20:21 GMT -5
if you think distancing yourself from your loved ones because you don't want to hurt them is cowardly then i don't even want to hear the rest of your arguement tbh that's...not what was said, though?? you asked if not wanting to return to society after murdering someone makes you a coward, and i clarified that yes, avoiding the consequences of your bad actions because it's easier to run away is a form of cowardice. im not sure where distancing one's self from loved ones was implied in there. i don't think hollyleaf's motivation for hiding was entirely selfishly motivated. as i commented earlier, it was probably a mix of self-imposed punishment, needing time to process, and avoiding the shame she'd have to face in clan life. cowardice isn't about not "having the guts", nor is it about bad intentions. it's about avoiding doing what's right. you can be physically brave but emotionally cowardly. Hollyleaf might have been well-intentioned in not wanting to hurt her family, and that's a good instinct, but running away and letting her family think she was dead (leaving behind a soured image) was not the right choice. deciding her own punishment rather than face her clanmates' judgement was not the right choice. deciding on behalf of her loved ones regarding what does or doesn't hurt them, and denying them the chance to forgive, was not the right choice. im not saying what she did choose was easy to live with, but it's easier to decide those things yourself than to submit one's self to the judgement of others. especially for someone like Hollyleaf, whose care for what others thought of her was a central motivation of her character. honestly i could argue hollyleaf still did the right thing by leaving the clan- she'd probably be exiled as a punishment anyway
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 29, 2022 15:21:35 GMT -5
if you think distancing yourself from your loved ones because you don't want to hurt them is cowardly then i don't even want to hear the rest of your arguement tbh Some of your posts have been pretty hostile. Please calm down dude sorry if my tone is a little cold but i'm literally pointing out things according to my opinions
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2022 10:40:18 GMT -5
I CHANGED MY MIND! My crush loves hollyleaf and so now I love Holly too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2022 15:59:10 GMT -5
I CHANGED MY MIND! My crush loves hollyleaf and so now I love Holly too. Perfect trade off
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Post by Willowbreeze on Aug 1, 2022 23:40:48 GMT -5
I don't think what she did was right, but I understand her actions, and I don't it makes her cowardly.
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