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Post by Aqua on Mar 21, 2022 17:19:35 GMT -5
I hear a lot of people complain about her being selfish. What do you think?
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Mar 21, 2022 17:33:35 GMT -5
I feel like I'm missing something, what would she even be selfish about. I guess I never read SfH so maybe something happened in that book. xD
I'd say she's unselfish because she took care of Leafpool's kits out of the pure love of for her sister, and she never wanted anything in return.<3
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 21, 2022 17:48:22 GMT -5
She isn't, but I wouldn't exactly call her her selfless, either. It's more complex than just yes or no, because everything she does, she does it with other cats in mind. The problem comes from when it ends up putting other cats at risk.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 21, 2022 18:11:20 GMT -5
she's arrogant and some of her decisions can come off as selfish. she has good intentions but the way she goes about it make her arrogant and self righteous rather than truly selfish. but her actions in TBC make her selfish like what i said: putting bramblestar above the wellbeing of her clan WAS truly selfish. she kept saying "what about me and my feelings for bramblestar? we cant kill him!" but she couldnt offer a solution or justification for wanting to not do the "kill bramble's body" plan other than "i love him." as deputy she should never put her emotions in front of the clan she's in charge of. thats not a real leader.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Mar 22, 2022 6:18:31 GMT -5
To a certain extent.
I mean, everyone has a bit of selfishness to them. She was selfless to accept Leafpool's kits, selfish when it came to the Sisters, selfish when she wanted to save Bramblestar's body, selfless when she wanted to be the one to take down Ashfur and reenter the Dark Forest...
She's written very realistically.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Mar 22, 2022 13:20:59 GMT -5
Squirrelflight has behaved selfish but also selfless in different situations throughout her life. So she is both if that even makes sense and I love her character for this.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Mar 22, 2022 13:50:44 GMT -5
she has had some selfish moments, but i wouldnt describe her whole characterization as "selfish"
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Mar 22, 2022 14:05:54 GMT -5
She can be selfish at times but she's also selfless at the same time, it depends on the situation she's in. She's pretty realistic in that matter, honestly, at least in my opinion.
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Post by cloudywatcher567 on Mar 22, 2022 15:06:15 GMT -5
No, I don’t think so. In her book, she worries about if Bramblestar wants kits, or if she is enough, etc. She wants to know what other people want, plus she sacrificed everything to help Leafpool, who broke the code, with her kits. I don’t believe she is selfish in any way. 🙂
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Mar 22, 2022 16:13:03 GMT -5
Everyone has their selfish moments, and so has Squirrelflight. I'm not going to call her entire character selfish just because she made some decisions that can be argued as selfish. She also did a lot of selfless things.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 22, 2022 19:11:12 GMT -5
Imo the cons outweigh the pros.
Even if you excuse her behavior in TNP, where she was incredibly bratty, she still continued to be consistently selfish in the story. Just because she has good intentions doesn't make her any less selfish.
She took care of the three, and covered for Leafpool?
Only after finding out she was barren and would never have kits. And then later NEVER told Bramblestar the truth, she used him for father fodder, ruined their marriage, and it came off as if she didn't trust him enough. Bramblestar was discriminated against constantly for looking like his father. His loyalty was always questioned, his own family was either all gone or left him, and he found it even harder to trust others. You'd think the one person he could find solace in was Squirrelflight, but apparently not, and that's why finding out upset him so much.
Yes, Leafpool and Crowfeather are also to blame, but Squirrelflight is just as involved considering she made a choice to help cover everything up. The three of them traumatized Holly, Jay and Lion, letting them live on lies, while also either neglected to tell their current significant others, or informing past ones of the truth.
She empathized with the Sisters?
She kept going behind her leader's back and one-upping his command in front of not only their own clan but also other leaders, and it was embarrassing. She is a deputy, with responsibility, your clan comes first, your clan should always come first, but she was so desperate to make it her way or the high way that she constantly butt heads with Bramblestar, even when he tried to compromise with her. It was ridiculous.
Then when he didn't want kits, she pulls the "Don't you love me anymore?" card??? And makes Bramblestar cave even though he clearly didn't want kits any more at the time. She then blatantly goes out of her way to sneak out and get another Clan leader involved while also dragging her daughter into her foolery, and making her cover for her lies. Leafstar and her get captured, and Leafstar gets injured, all because Squirrelflight can't follow orders. Not only did Bramblestar have to bail her out of this, she made herself look like an idiot in front of everyone by acting like an apprentice.
She also doesn't learn her lesson when she brings previously hostile cats into the heart of their territory, their camp, without even asking permission first. Cats that no only held his deputy/mate hostage, but also wounded another clan leader, and threatened another clan's territory, and if they found out they were hiding them they would threaten war. Squirrelflight put them ALL in danger because she doesn't think before she acts. And when she gets called out for it, it goes through one ear and out the other.
She wanted to keep Bramblestar's body alive?
Once again, proving why she shouldn't be a deputy, let alone a leader. She was always talking about what about "my feelings" and "what about my mate". When as deputy and acting leader she should be putting her clan first, especially when at the time they didn't have any good options. Leafstar said it best, she was choosing to execute Bramblestar to protect her clan, even if she emphasizes with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight is the type to choose the needs of one over the needs of many, and it really shows in this type of scenario.
So many others have died because of Brashfur's tyranny, so many families wanted justice, so many clan cats wanted this to end, and to them, the only option left was getting rid of the catalyst, Bramblestar's body. Bramblestar's actual spirit was long gone, his body was a walking dead corpse, and the one in it wasn't Bramblestar for a long time, and she couldn't accept that. Yet despite the leaders all coming in agreement, she doesn't even hesitate to run off and try to help Brashstar escape???
The fact that two cats, WAAAAAY younger than her have to track her down, give chase, and hold her down forcibly to talk sense into her is ridiculous. She was ready to help a murderous tyrant escape, and be with him if it meant saving Bramblestar's body, instead of finally putting all of this to a hopeful rest. She didn't care what the rest of the clans wanted, and what the leaders fairly agreed on. Listen, it's fine to feel sorry for her in this instant, but again it doesn't make what she was going to do any less selfish, and too many lives were already lost at this point because of Brashstar.
Over the past few arcs, she's just be so noticeably and ridiculous selfish it's not even funny anymore. And I'm honestly just so tired of seeing her make horrible decisions that drags others through her foolery, and continuously proving why she's not deputy/leader material.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Mar 22, 2022 20:24:00 GMT -5
Imo the pros outweigh the cons. Even if you excuse her behavior in TNP, where she was incredibly bratty, she still continued to be consistently selfish in the story. Just because she has good intentions doesn't make her any less selfish. She took care of the three, and covered for Leafpool? Only after finding out she was barren and would never have kits. And then later NEVER told Bramblestar the truth, she used him for father fodder, ruined their marriage, and it came off as if she didn't trust him enough. Bramblestar was discriminated against constantly for looking like his father. His loyalty was always questioned, his own family was either all gone or left him, and he found it even harder to trust others. You'd think the one person he could find solace in was Squirrelflight, but apparently not, and that's why finding out upset him so much. Yes, Leafpool and Crowfeather are also to blame, but Squirrelflight is just as involved considering she made a choice to help cover everything up. The three of them traumatized Holly, Jay and Lion, letting them live on lies, while also either neglected to tell their current significant others, or informing past ones of the truth. She empathized with the Sisters? She kept going behind her leader's back and one-upping his command in front of not only their own clan but also other leaders, and it was embarrassing. She is a deputy, with responsibility, your clan comes first, your clan should always come first, but she was so desperate to make it her way or the high way that she constantly butt heads with Bramblestar, even when he tried to compromise with her. It was ridiculous. Then when he didn't want kits, she pulls the "Don't you love me anymore?" card??? And makes Bramblestar cave even though he clearly didn't want kits any more at the time. She then blatantly goes out of her way to sneak out and get another Clan leader involved while also dragging her daughter into her foolery, and making her cover for her lies. Leafstar and her get captured, and Leafstar gets injured, all because Squirrelflight can't follow orders. Not only did Bramblestar have to bail her out of this, she made herself look like an idiot in front of everyone by acting like an apprentice. She also doesn't learn her lesson when she brings previously hostile cats into the heart of their territory, their camp, without even asking permission first. Cats that no only held his deputy/mate hostage, but also wounded another clan leader, and threatened another clan's territory, and if they found out they were hiding them they would threaten war. Squirrelflight put them ALL in danger because she doesn't think before she acts. And when she gets called out for it, it goes through one ear and out the other. She wanted to keep Bramblestar's body alive? Once again, proving why she shouldn't be a deputy, let alone a leader. She was always talking about what about "my feelings" and "what about my mate". When as deputy and acting leader she should be putting her clan first, especially when at the time they didn't have any good options. Leafstar said it best, she was choosing to execute Bramblestar to protect her clan, even if she emphasizes with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight is the type to choose the needs of one over the needs of many, and it really shows in this type of scenario. So many others have died because of Brashfur's tyranny, so many families wanted justice, so many clan cats wanted this to end, and to them, the only option left was getting rid of the catalyst, Bramblestar's body. Bramblestar's actual spirit was long gone, his body was a walking dead corpse, and the one in it wasn't Bramblestar for a long time, and she couldn't accept that. Yet despite the leaders all coming in agreement, she doesn't even hesitate to run off and try to help Brashstar escape??? The fact that two cats, WAAAAAY younger than her have to track her down, give chase, and hold her down forcibly to talk sense into her is ridiculous. She was ready to help a murderous tyrant escape, and be with him if it meant saving Bramblestar's body, instead of finally putting all of this to a hopeful rest. She didn't care what the rest of the clans wanted, and what the leaders fairly agreed on. Listen, it's fine to feel sorry for her in this instant, but again it doesn't make what she was going to do any less selfish, and too many lives were already lost at this point because of Brashstar. Over the past few arcs, she's just be so noticeably and ridiculous selfish it's not even funny anymore. And I'm honestly just so tired of seeing her make horrible decisions that drags others through her foolery, and continuously proving why she's not deputy/leader material. I agree 100% with almost everything here. Except for the pros outweighing the Cons bit. Personally I think The cons FAR outweigh the pros nowadays. Heck lately it’s become increasingly next to impossible to find pros, in fact It’s been so long since I’ve been able to unearth legitimate pros with Squirrelflight I’m beginning to forget what they were in the first place.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 23, 2022 2:53:45 GMT -5
Imo the pros outweigh the cons.
Even if you excuse her behavior in TNP, where she was incredibly bratty, she still continued to be consistently selfish in the story. Just because she has good intentions doesn't make her any less selfish.
She took care of the three, and covered for Leafpool?
Only after finding out she was barren and would never have kits. And then later NEVER told Bramblestar the truth, she used him for father fodder, ruined their marriage, and it came off as if she didn't trust him enough. Bramblestar was discriminated against constantly for looking like his father. His loyalty was always questioned, his own family was either all gone or left him, and he found it even harder to trust others. You'd think the one person he could find solace in was Squirrelflight, but apparently not, and that's why finding out upset him so much.
Yes, Leafpool and Crowfeather are also to blame, but Squirrelflight is just as involved considering she made a choice to help cover everything up. The three of them traumatized Holly, Jay and Lion, letting them live on lies, while also either neglected to tell their current significant others, or informing past ones of the truth.
She empathized with the Sisters?
She kept going behind her leader's back and one-upping his command in front of not only their own clan but also other leaders, and it was embarrassing. She is a deputy, with responsibility, your clan comes first, your clan should always come first, but she was so desperate to make it her way or the high way that she constantly butt heads with Bramblestar, even when he tried to compromise with her. It was ridiculous.
Then when he didn't want kits, she pulls the "Don't you love me anymore?" card??? And makes Bramblestar cave even though he clearly didn't want kits any more at the time. She then blatantly goes out of her way to sneak out and get another Clan leader involved while also dragging her daughter into her foolery, and making her cover for her lies. Leafstar and her get captured, and Leafstar gets injured, all because Squirrelflight can't follow orders. Not only did Bramblestar have to bail her out of this, she made herself look like an idiot in front of everyone by acting like an apprentice.
She also doesn't learn her lesson when she brings previously hostile cats into the heart of their territory, their camp, without even asking permission first. Cats that no only held his deputy/mate hostage, but also wounded another clan leader, and threatened another clan's territory, and if they found out they were hiding them they would threaten war. Squirrelflight put them ALL in danger because she doesn't think before she acts. And when she gets called out for it, it goes through one ear and out the other.
She wanted to keep Bramblestar's body alive?
Once again, proving why she shouldn't be a deputy, let alone a leader. She was always talking about what about "my feelings" and "what about my mate". When as deputy and acting leader she should be putting her clan first, especially when at the time they didn't have any good options. Leafstar said it best, she was choosing to execute Bramblestar to protect her clan, even if she emphasizes with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight is the type to choose the needs of one over the needs of many, and it really shows in this type of scenario.
So many others have died because of Brashfur's tyranny, so many families wanted justice, so many clan cats wanted this to end, and to them, the only option left was getting rid of the catalyst, Bramblestar's body. Bramblestar's actual spirit was long gone, his body was a walking dead corpse, and the one in it wasn't Bramblestar for a long time, and she couldn't accept that. Yet despite the leaders all coming in agreement, she doesn't even hesitate to run off and try to help Brashstar escape???
The fact that two cats, WAAAAAY younger than her have to track her down, give chase, and hold her down forcibly to talk sense into her is ridiculous. She was ready to help a murderous tyrant escape, and be with him if it meant saving Bramblestar's body, instead of finally putting all of this to a hopeful rest. She didn't care what the rest of the clans wanted, and what the leaders fairly agreed on. Listen, it's fine to feel sorry for her in this instant, but again it doesn't make what she was going to do any less selfish, and too many lives were already lost at this point because of Brashstar.
Over the past few arcs, she's just be so noticeably and ridiculous selfish it's not even funny anymore. And I'm honestly just so tired of seeing her make horrible decisions that drags others through her foolery, and continuously proving why she's not deputy/leader material. I agree 100% with almost everything here. Except for the pros outweighing the Cons bit. Personally I think The cons FAR outweigh the pros nowadays. Heck lately it’s become increasingly next to impossible to find pros, in fact It’s been so long since I’ve been able to unearth legitimate pros with Squirrelflight I’m beginning to forget what they were in the first place. A mistype on my part, but yeah I did mean the cons outweigh the pros.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Mar 23, 2022 9:15:32 GMT -5
Squirrelflight is both selfish and selfless. She has sacrified herself for others many times, while others she's put what she thinks above Clan rules. Her situation is far too complex to just decide on something. Imo, that's why i love her as a character; she has both traits at the same time, but it still remains balanced.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Mar 23, 2022 9:30:34 GMT -5
she used him for father fodder, ruined their marriage, i dont know why but seeing battle cats mating called "marriage" is really funny for some reason
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Post by Aqua on Mar 23, 2022 10:48:27 GMT -5
Squirrelflight is both selfish and selfless. She has sacrified herself for others many times, while others she's put what she thinks above Clan rules. Her situation is far too complex to just decide on something. Imo, that's why i love her as a character. She seems mostly selfless in TBC so far and I'm really enjoying her character. I think people are too harsh on her because they don't like Squirrelflight’s fandom. She was willing to put her clanmates first before herself multiple times and even pretended to be dead to keep her clanmates safe and she risked her own life. I really admired that and liked that from her. It just goes to show how much she cares about her clanmates. I don't remember much of TNP but I plan to rebuy that series and reread it just to remember Squirrelflight. I think most people crap on her because of how the fandom treats other people because of her as a character. But if you don't allow that part of the fandom to get in your way then she should be liked for who she is and not because of how the fandom acts. However I do understand how Squirrelflight haters feel because I used to dislike Ivypool because of her fandom. But I like her a little now (I still despise Ivypaw) as a warrior without letting the fandom get in my way of how I feel about her.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Mar 23, 2022 21:37:41 GMT -5
Squirrelflight is both selfish and selfless. She has sacrified herself for others many times, while others she's put what she thinks above Clan rules. Her situation is far too complex to just decide on something. Imo, that's why i love her as a character. She seems mostly selfless in TBC so far and I'm really enjoying her character. I think people are too harsh on her because they don't like Squirrelflight’s fandom. She was willing to put her clanmates first before herself multiple times and even pretended to be dead to keep her clanmates safe and she risked her own life. I really admired that and liked that from her. It just goes to show how much she cares about her clanmates. I don't remember much of TNP but I plan to rebuy that series and reread it just to remember Squirrelflight. I think most people crap on her because of how the fandom treats other people because of her as a character. But if you don't allow that part of the fandom to get in your way then she should be liked for who she is and not because of how the fandom acts. However I do understand how Squirrelflight haters feel because I used to dislike Ivypool because of her fandom. But I like her a little now (I still despise Ivypaw) as a warrior without letting the fandom get in my way of how I feel about her. I love Squirrelflight, and agree with everyone e saying saying how selfish she is. She is, and it's kinda why I like her lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2022 22:57:19 GMT -5
nah
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 24, 2022 18:57:15 GMT -5
Like, even if she's not doing it intentionally, because she has good intentions, she is still incredibly selfish. And her actions have had more cons than pros. Like I said, she's the type to put her own needs over the greater good of the rest, and that's why she's not a very good deputy, let alone a temporary leader. The Erins, whether they mean to or not, have been portraying her as selfish, and just because she has good intentions, or is a good-aligned character, it doesn't mean she's selfless either. Has she done selfless things? Yeah, but it's just that her selfish tendencies outweigh the selfless ones, and that's why people dislike Squirrelflight.
It's not just because of her "fans". I'm an ex-Squirrelflight fan, but I grew out of love with her after her horrible characterization in AVoS. Her actions in POT and OotS made me start to feel neutral toward her, but her behavior in SqH really took the cake, and its even more grating in TBC. It's frustrating to go from enjoying a character to not even being able to stand them because of how their character was dragged along so much by the writers, beating a dead horse, and they quite literally smother the plot, and make it harder for OTHER characters to grow. Squirrelflight's rabid side of her fanbase are just a partial reason why people can find it hard to enjoy her character much, let alone at all.
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