#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 11, 2021 9:55:03 GMT -5
A big part why Leopardstar is hated is because she allowed Stonefur's execution. Now that we have her PoV on it, what are your thoughts on her and her actions regarding the scene?
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 11, 2021 10:16:09 GMT -5
I think that she made a massively bad decision but she genuinely believed it was what was best for the clan. She was very clearly conflicted and in that moment was a coward, but I don’t hate her for it as much as I know that it’s a massive part of her character. Leopardstar is heavily flawed, and I think that she’s interesting because she’s going to carry that cowardice and guilt in that moment for the rest of her life. I can tell she didn’t decide out of malice, but she did make the wrong decision, and I hope they go into detail about how that decision affects her later moons.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 11, 2021 10:17:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I thought it was selfish, it seems like the narrative are trying to paint her as being sympathetic but the way I see it, she chose herself above everyone else. I know in her thoughts, she is trying to stay strong for her clan or whatever, but she's a leader, she probably has more than one life, and a clan isn't JUST their leader, a leader is nothing without their subjects, and Leopardstar was just like "I have to stay alive to help my clan, but screw my deputy Stonefur and two innocent apprentices." I know Stormfur is weak and starved at the moment, and maybe he couldn't have been the best leader at that moment, but he shouldn't have been killed for refusing to kill two innocent apprentices, his own clanmates, his own apprentice, and his sister's own apprentice at that. Also, if Leopardstar refused to make the order, then that could have been the incentive and inspirational move to make her clan turn on Tigerclaw and return RiverClan back to what they were. Instead, she selfishly sold out her clan on the guise of it being for the greater good. I know a lot of people are going to disagree with my opinion, but this is the way I see it.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 11, 2021 10:37:02 GMT -5
Also, if Leopardstar refused to make the order, then that could have been the incentive and inspirational move to make her clan turn on Tigerclaw and return RiverClan back to what they were. ShadowClan outnumbered RiverClan, so even if Leopardstar did take a stand, it's likely either her or many of her Clanmates would've shared Stonefur's fate. There's a reason why his execution was done publicly, for the same reason why Gorsepaw was killed: to set an example. Really, Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw were lucky Tigerstar didn't kill them right away.
Leopardstar shouldn't have allied with Tigerstar in the first place, but my point is, the chances of her successfully turning on him without losing anyone else—much less all her lives—were really unlikely.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 11, 2021 10:42:50 GMT -5
Also, if Leopardstar refused to make the order, then that could have been the incentive and inspirational move to make her clan turn on Tigerclaw and return RiverClan back to what they were. ShadowClan outnumbered RiverClan, so even if Leopardstar did take a stand, it's likely either her or many of her Clanmates would've shared Stonefur's fate. There's a reason why his execution was done publicly, for the same reason why Gorsepaw was killed: to set an example. Really, Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw were lucky Tigerstar didn't kill them right away.
Leopardstar shouldn't have allied with Tigerstar in the first place, but my point is, the chances of her successfully turning on him without losing anyone else—much less all her lives—were really unlikely. That's a good point, I just feel like there could have been a better way. Then again, no one really thinks clearly while under high stress, maybe I am being too hard on her, but I've always been about the many over the few, but the way you say it, there might have been many more lives lost.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Pretty busy irl so not online as much atm...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Aug 11, 2021 12:47:58 GMT -5
Leopardstar should have never allowed Tigerstar to walk all over her and RiverClan in the first place but even though she would probably not been able to save Stonefur at the bonehill even if she tried, that still doesn't excuse her stupid decision, at all.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 11, 2021 17:42:30 GMT -5
I can see how Leopardstar's thought process led her to make that decision, but I still have a really hard time feeling even slightly sympathetic for her. Her stupid actions caused the death of her deputy and I hope she will feel that guilt for a long, long time. I can already tell she will. I still don't like Leopardstar at all, and I'll have to read the rest of her SE to form my final opinion of her.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 11, 2021 17:51:50 GMT -5
i see it as a tragedy. she knew her decisions led to this path, but she was in too deep in denial and fear to ever do anything about it until it was too late (stonefur dying bc of her). she had to rationalize what was happening before her eyes because she couldnt handle taking responisibility at that moment.
i hope they dont completely sink into the sympathetic angle...it's a tragedy, but it doesnt excuse leopardstar in the slightest.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 11, 2021 18:17:08 GMT -5
Now that I think about it, I wonder if Leopardstar will recall back to Skykit’s nasty words and believe that she’ll go to the Dark Forest after Stonefur’s death, but resolve that her clan is more important than where she goes when she dies, so she does all she can to right her wrong. That would be cool, if she accepts that she could probably go to the Dark Forest and has to manage that fear while trying to atone for her cowardice by being as strong a leader as she can be for Riverclan.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 11, 2021 18:52:58 GMT -5
That prologue actually made her a lot worse in my mind. Let's break it down piece by piece Leopardstar expressing shock over Tigerstar wanting to kill the half-clanners after they have been starved and held prisoner in a pit makes her seem like she's completely deluded as to the reality of the situation, a kind of ineptitude that it boggles the mind to grasp. If Tigerstar wanted them banished, why keep them captured and starving?
The fact that her immediate thought when pronouncing her sentence to Stonefur is to think about her own life being in danger and that she must think like Tigerstar is astonishingly spineless. At least have the dignity in mind to realize that you're not the one suffering here and that Tigerstar is a monster rather than seeking to emulate him. But wait, for a moment she does think that Stonefur should kill Darkstripe? Well, yes, but then she immediately quashes that thought and regurgitates Tigerstar's line that this is entirely necessary and seems to be under the deluded impression that this is a matter of survival for Riverclan.
Perhaps the most vile part of it all is when she says that Stonefur is a "sacrifice...for the good of Riverclan". It is the absolute dearth of moral fiber to make such a statement as he's being murdered in front of her on the whims of an insane tyrant.
In contention with that moment is the very end of the prologue, where she acts as though she is the one who has suffered the most in this entire situation and that she must be "strong for them" as though she's the one who is being starved and executed. Almost every possible moral trait in Leopardstar got unfathomably worse in that prologue. People in this thread are talking about her fear of Tigerstar hurting Riverclan being the main reason, but it's only mentioned once. By comparison, her lust for power is far more focused on and she practically gargles the party line even in her own personal thoughts. It would be one thing if the entire time she was mentally protesting, it would be cowardice but it would be something. But she doesn't even really protest it in her mind beyond the absolute most token resistances, and all too quickly she justifies it and can't even muster up the care upon seeing his corpse to care about anyone else. For all that she talks about Riverclan, it comes off more like she's obsessed with her own personal power and wellbeing above the clan. The talk with Mudfur especially reeks of this, though I suppose we'll see if that's fleshed out more. That being said, do I dislike this? Well no, not really. I don't think any of it's unrealistic, I just think it's repulsive. I think it's some good characterization and I hope the transition period from neutral party to someone toeing the party line even in her own thoughts is explored. It's fascinating to look into the mind of the kind of person who would unironically say "How was I supposed to know they would die, they were only sending them to a desolate place with no food or water?". Oh yeah, and one more good thing comes out of this, Leopardstar handily retains her crown as being the worst non-villain leader by a country mile.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 11, 2021 20:10:40 GMT -5
vectoring34I love this post, I'm not sure if I agree with it exactly, because I read into it differently, but I still didn't feel much sympathy for her and I still dislike her. I could see where people who are defending her are coming from and maybe I am too hard on her, but I still don't feel bad for her and I believe she was in the wrong. However what I like most about your post is that it's so cool to see intelligent people who know what they're talking about be on opposite ends of the coin for this discussion. It's just great to see opposing views from people who are so passionate and knowledgeable about this series, and even though I don't agree with you and Cinder (sorry for the name drop again) on a lot of things, I still admire the intelligence that you guys have and how much thought you put into your posts, I always end up learning something new, and I just feel that you two being on opposing sides is really interesting and I'm excited to see how it plays out. Anyway, this has gotten a bit rambly and I probably sound like an idiot, so I'll have it there, just know, your post is gold.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 11, 2021 20:15:10 GMT -5
vectoring34 I love this post, I'm not sure if I agree with it exactly, because I read into it differently, but I still didn't feel much sympathy for her and I still dislike her. I could see where people who are defending her are coming from and maybe I am too hard on her, but I still don't feel bad for her and I believe she was in the wrong. However what I like most about your post is that it's so cool to see intelligent people who know what they're talking about be on opposite ends of the coin for this discussion. It's just great to see opposing views from people who are so passionate and knowledgeable about this series, and even though I don't agree with you and Cinder (sorry for the name drop again) on a lot of things, I still admire the intelligence that you guys have and how much thought you put into your posts, I always end up learning something new, and I just feel that you two being on opposing sides is really interesting and I'm excited to see how it plays out. Anyway, this has gotten a bit rambly and I probably sound like an idiot, so I'll have it there, just know, your post is gold. You have my thanks for the lovely compliment
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Post by Chicken on Aug 11, 2021 20:32:47 GMT -5
vectoring34 I love this post, I'm not sure if I agree with it exactly, because I read into it differently, but I still didn't feel much sympathy for her and I still dislike her. I could see where people who are defending her are coming from and maybe I am too hard on her, but I still don't feel bad for her and I believe she was in the wrong. However what I like most about your post is that it's so cool to see intelligent people who know what they're talking about be on opposite ends of the coin for this discussion. It's just great to see opposing views from people who are so passionate and knowledgeable about this series, and even though I don't agree with you and Cinder (sorry for the name drop again) on a lot of things, I still admire the intelligence that you guys have and how much thought you put into your posts, I always end up learning something new, and I just feel that you two being on opposing sides is really interesting and I'm excited to see how it plays out. Anyway, this has gotten a bit rambly and I probably sound like an idiot, so I'll have it there, just know, your post is gold. You have my thanks for the lovely compliment You're welcome
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 11, 2021 20:41:04 GMT -5
Not everyone can be noble like Firestar and Tallstar. Leopardstar was just cowardly. She wanted to live. But letting four innocent cats go almost to the stage of death can't be forgiven to me.
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