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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 27, 2021 14:31:06 GMT -5
...what r the chances of bramble telling them their plans r stupid and just go tell firestar the truth so they can plan together...?
i'm wondering about this now. if bramble was told, do u think he would have insisted they tell firestar? i still dont see a reason why they shouldnt have told firestar to have him in on this since it's such an important thing...plus, if they told firestar, maybe firestar would put two and two together and say "leafpool, u're going to have the three. i was told a prophecy about this moons ago."
then from there, what r the chances of firestar insisting they tell the clan, be honest, and have ferncloud nurse the kits and keep leafpool doing her duties at the same time? leafpool could take breaks if there's nothing immediate happening that needs her attention, see her kits with ferncloud in the nursery, then go back to work, etc. up until the kits are weaned, leafpool would then need to see them a bit less, but once the kits were old enough, ferncloud could have taken them to visit leafpool while she's working.
firestar could have made this happen if squirrel and leaf told bramble, then bramble insisted they tell firestar the truth too...
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Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 27, 2021 14:50:35 GMT -5
All of that stuff could have happened, but it relies on an awful lot of things going exactly right. For one, the more people who are in on a secret, the less likely it is to stay secret. If Squirrel, Bramble, Firestar, AND Ferncloud were all in on this, it wouldn't stay under wraps for very long before the rest of ThunderClan, and then the other Clans, found out.
And once the other Clans found out, calls for exile or at least some other extreme punishment would be likely. Leaf's saving grace when the secret was revealed was simply that it had been so long ago: her children were adults and already solidified their loyalty, so no one was concerned about conflicts of interest, simply the codebreaking in and of itself. If this had been revealed when the three were still kits, the situation could have been a whole lot worse.
Honestly, my personal opinion is that the best way for Squirrel and Leaf to proceed would have been to say they "found" the kits and want to keep them. There would have been discourse in TC about taking in outsiders, but that's always the case. Under one of the rules of the Warrior Code, warriors aren't allowed to leave kits in danger, so Squirrel would be seen as a hero, and Bramble wouldn't think he was raising his own kits when he wasn't. This also limits the secret to two cats so the chances of it getting out are far lesser than if five or six cats were in on it.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 27, 2021 15:00:10 GMT -5
All of that stuff could have happened, but it relies on an awful lot of things going exactly right. For one, the more people who are in on a secret, the less likely it is to stay secret. If Squirrel, Bramble, Firestar, AND Ferncloud were all in on this, it wouldn't stay under wraps for very long before the rest of ThunderClan, and then the other Clans, found out. And once the other Clans found out, calls for exile or at least some other extreme punishment would be likely. Leaf's saving grace when the secret was revealed was simply that it had been so long ago: her children were adults and already solidified their loyalty, so no one was concerned about conflicts of interest, simply the codebreaking in and of itself. If this had been revealed when the three were still kits, the situation could have been a whole lot worse. Honestly, my personal opinion is that the best way for Squirrel and Leaf to proceed would have been to say they "found" the kits and want to keep them. There would have been discourse in TC about taking in outsiders, but that's always the case. Under one of the rules of the Warrior Code, warriors aren't allowed to leave kits in danger, so Squirrel would be seen as a hero, and Bramble wouldn't think he was raising his own kits when he wasn't. This also limits the secret to two cats so the chances of it getting out are far lesser than if five or six cats were in on it. hm that is true. i dont think all of thunderclan would be able to keep their mouths shut at gatherings about it (if bramble and fire were in on it and decided to tell the clan the truth), and it'd get back to windclan eventually. i dont think crowfeather would go to war for his kits like reedfeather, but it would hurt him anyways. if they did claim the kits were a loner's, it would make sense. squirrelflight didnt even have milk, so its not like she actually stayed in the nursery with the kits in po3 anyways. makes no different if they were said to be found kits. they could have easily been dust x fern adopted kits.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 27, 2021 15:32:46 GMT -5
Whenever this topic comes up, one question always comes to mind: what are the chances of the Clan just accepting this? Remember, Leafpool is still pregnant when Mousefur calls a meeting precisely because ThunderClan was becoming too mixed. Then there's the Clan initial outrage at Brambleclaw being named deputy despite never having had an apprentice at this point. And even after the truth came cat, it's mentioned that the Clan had become suspicious of Lionblaze and Jayfeather even though they'd both been loyal to their Clan for moons. And of course, there's LW implying that the kits wouldn't be accepted into ThunderClan had Leafpool told the truth. Even if Firestar had been accepting (and he obviously would've been, it's Firestar we're talking about here), I don't think the same would've applied to everyone else. Leafpool was ThunderClan's only medicine cat after Cinderpelt died, so they pretty much had no choice but to accept her back without much trouble. But what if she hadn't been? And jealousy or not, but if cats like Dustpelt and Mousefur began to think that maybe Ashfur had had a point when he accused Leafpool of faking a sign? And okay, let's say Brambleclaw agreed to keep the secret. Let's say this extends to Firestar as well. Now let's say the truth came out the same way. Then the Clan would've been angry at their superiors, maybe some would even call Firestar's leadership into question. It would've been right back to square one for both of them. Of course, all of these are very much dramatic, worst case scenarios that I kinda wish had been the reason for Leafpool keeping the truth in the first place instead of StarClan getting involved at all, or at the very least, they could've pulled an Oakheart. Knowing this series, the Clan would've likely just been tolerant about the whole thing at best, much like how they were when the secret had actually been revealed.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 27, 2021 15:45:55 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵i think im not comprehending it well, but what do u mean that firestar's leadership would be questioned? also, do u think if leafpool told firestar about the 3 stars sign she had, and then firestar told the clan "starclan told me a prophecy about leafpool's kits, so if we dont accept them, the prophecy might not come true and the darkness will win in the future. so u have to accept leafpool's kits," would they be more or less willing to comply then?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 27, 2021 15:57:39 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵i think im not comprehending it well, but what do u mean that firestar's leadership would be questioned? also, do u think if leafpool told firestar about the 3 stars sign she had, and then firestar told the clan "starclan told me a prophecy about leafpool's kits, so if we dont accept them, the prophecy might not come true and the darkness will win in the future. so u have to accept leafpool's kits," would they be more or less willing to comply then? Well, look at what happened when Mousefur called a meeting. It'd probably be a repeat of that, but worse if Firestar agreed to hide something like this from his own Clan. It'd be to protect his daughter, sure, but at the cost of his Clan no longer trusting him should the truth come out, especially after he'd spent so long trying to prove to them that he was more than just a former kittypet. Does that make sense? And I think they would've, but I also think it's possible that at least some of them would've called the legitimacy of the prophecy into question, much like how Ashfur did when Leafpool got the vision of Brambleclaw becoming deputy, or even when Thornclaw didn't approve of Firestar's kin being in power. We as readers know the truth, but from an outside perspective, it would've all seemed just a little too convenient (actually, one could argue it seems a little too convenient for a reader too).
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Post by fishbreeze on Apr 27, 2021 16:19:06 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on your question, and I think everyone has made really good points, but what I'm really wondering is why didn't they use this as a way to strengthen Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw's relationship? Brambleflight is supposed to be the otp of the series, the children of enemies who against all odds, survived a perilous journey, and ended up together. Yet, we hardly see any happy times with them, this could have been a great way to strengthen their relationship and bond, and to not make people go, "Well, who cares if Bramblestar dies?" Did Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw really need to have this relationship drama? Wasn't the CrowxLeaf, JayxHalf, CinderxLion, DovexTiger relationship drama enough?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 27, 2021 16:35:24 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on your question, and I think everyone has made really good points, but what I'm really wondering is why didn't they use this as a way to strengthen Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw's relationship? Brambleflight is supposed to be the otp of the series, the children of enemies who against all odds, survived a perilous journey, and ended up together. Yet, we hardly see any happy times with them, this could have been a great way to strengthen their relationship and bond, and to not make people go, "Well, who cares if Bramblestar dies?" Did Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw really need to have this relationship drama? Wasn't the CrowxLeaf, JayxHalf, CinderxLion, DovexTiger relationship drama enough? Unfortunately, the Erin team seem to think that romantic drama = good writing. Also, to be fair, whenever I see people say that Bramblestar should die, that's usually in relation to either his age (something that also applies to the other cats from the first two arcs) or because we want TBC to have long-lasting consequences. It doesn't really have anything to do with his relationship with Squirrelflight, he just happens to be the victim here. I'd feel the same way if it had been any other leader who had gotten possessed.
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Post by fishbreeze on Apr 27, 2021 16:38:22 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on your question, and I think everyone has made really good points, but what I'm really wondering is why didn't they use this as a way to strengthen Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw's relationship? Brambleflight is supposed to be the otp of the series, the children of enemies who against all odds, survived a perilous journey, and ended up together. Yet, we hardly see any happy times with them, this could have been a great way to strengthen their relationship and bond, and to not make people go, "Well, who cares if Bramblestar dies?" Did Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw really need to have this relationship drama? Wasn't the CrowxLeaf, JayxHalf, CinderxLion, DovexTiger relationship drama enough? Unfortunately, the Erin team seem to think that romantic drama = good writing. Also, to be fair, whenever I see people say that Bramblestar should die, that's usually in relation to either his age (something that also applies to the other cats from the first two arcs) or because we want TBC to have long-lasting consequences. It doesn't really have anything to do with his relationship with Squirrelflight, he just happens to be the victim here. I'd feel the same way if it had been any other leader who had gotten possessed. Oh you're right, age probably is a huge factor in why people want him to go as well, it's why I want several characters to go. I'm glad the romance drama in tbc hasn't gotten out of hand yet, it all seems to be good so far, and Bristle and Root seem a lot more responsible than most cats their age, and thankfully, it doesn't seem like Shadowsight has any romantic interests yet.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 27, 2021 20:31:54 GMT -5
Didn't Brambleclaw say that he would have helped them if they had told him the truth? It's easy to say that, but he doesn't know what he would have done. Either way, I can see why it was kept secret. People point out the issue of half-clan, but there's also the issue that if it got out: Windclan might have wanted all of or some of the kits. This has happened before, multiple times. Riverclan wanted Stormfur and Feathertail, Willowshine and Graypool also went through the custody battle issue
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 27, 2021 20:35:04 GMT -5
Didn't Brambleclaw say that he would have helped them if they had told him the truth? Pretty much, he was upset that Squirrelflight didn't trust him enough to tell him something like this, and that hurt him the most. I feel like people keep forgetting that Bramble is quite literally asking for the bare minimum when it comes to his relationship with Squirrelflight, especially when they were both still warriors. Trust. And she broke that trust, which is why he was more upset at her, but he never blamed his children. I also doubt Firestar or the others would blame the children...honestly the sisters shouldn't have lied from the start.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2021 13:50:57 GMT -5
Didn't Brambleclaw say that he would have helped them if they had told him the truth? It's easy to say that, but he doesn't know what he would have done. Either way, I can see why it was kept secret. People point out the issue of half-clan, but there's also the issue that if it got out: Windclan might have wanted all of or some of the kits. This has happened before, multiple times. Riverclan wanted Stormfur and Feathertail, Willowshine and Graypool also went through the custody battle issue would onestar go to war for the kits if crowfeather didn't say he wanted them..? i think onestar would since his hatred for thunderclan was already brewing (since eclipse battle happens later in the arc). it'd suck for crowfeather. i think he'd be too in denial and hurt to ever acknowledge they're his and he's plead to not take them out of his own stuborn pride.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 28, 2021 15:04:35 GMT -5
It's easy to say that, but he doesn't know what he would have done. Either way, I can see why it was kept secret. People point out the issue of half-clan, but there's also the issue that if it got out: Windclan might have wanted all of or some of the kits. This has happened before, multiple times. Riverclan wanted Stormfur and Feathertail, Willowshine and Graypool also went through the custody battle issue would onestar go to war for the kits if crowfeather didn't say he wanted them..? i think onestar would since his hatred for thunderclan was already brewing (since eclipse battle happens later in the arc). it'd suck for crowfeather. i think he'd be too in denial and hurt to ever acknowledge they're his and he's plead to not take them out of his own stuborn pride. Here's the thing though, TNP Onestar is not PoT Onestar. He hasn't had time to stew in his inferiority and paranoia as long as he would later.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 28, 2021 15:12:49 GMT -5
It's easy to say that, but he doesn't know what he would have done. Either way, I can see why it was kept secret. People point out the issue of half-clan, but there's also the issue that if it got out: Windclan might have wanted all of or some of the kits. This has happened before, multiple times. Riverclan wanted Stormfur and Feathertail, Willowshine and Graypool also went through the custody battle issue would onestar go to war for the kits if crowfeather didn't say he wanted them..? i think onestar would since his hatred for thunderclan was already brewing (since eclipse battle happens later in the arc). it'd suck for crowfeather. i think he'd be too in denial and hurt to ever acknowledge they're his and he's plead to not take them out of his own stuborn pride. We don't know if Crowfeather would have wanted them or not. We see him wish he'd been able to know Hollyleaf better in his book, so there's a chance. Also, it doesn't take an unreasonable leader to want kits. Heatherstar went along with Reedfeather's claims for Willowbreeze and Graypool
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Post by Aqua on Apr 28, 2021 17:26:48 GMT -5
Didn't Brambleclaw say that he would have helped them if they had told him the truth? Yep. Just goes to show that Squirrelflight should've just been honest with him about his own kits he's going to help raise from the start. He wasn't even hurt that she lied to him, just that she didn't trust him to help her.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2021 17:55:44 GMT -5
would onestar go to war for the kits if crowfeather didn't say he wanted them..? i think onestar would since his hatred for thunderclan was already brewing (since eclipse battle happens later in the arc). it'd suck for crowfeather. i think he'd be too in denial and hurt to ever acknowledge they're his and he's plead to not take them out of his own stuborn pride. Here's the thing though, TNP Onestar is not PoT Onestar. He hasn't had time to stew in his inferiority and paranoia as long as he would later. we dont see the gap from TNP to Po3, so we dont know how long it took for onestar to build up his resentment about firestar and thunderclan. unless im forgetting an instance before eclipe in po3 that was a direct cause to the eclipe battle?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2021 17:56:52 GMT -5
would onestar go to war for the kits if crowfeather didn't say he wanted them..? i think onestar would since his hatred for thunderclan was already brewing (since eclipse battle happens later in the arc). it'd suck for crowfeather. i think he'd be too in denial and hurt to ever acknowledge they're his and he's plead to not take them out of his own stuborn pride. We don't know if Crowfeather would have wanted them or not. We see him wish he'd been able to know Hollyleaf better in his book, so there's a chance. Also, it doesn't take an unreasonable leader to want kits. Heatherstar went along with Reedfeather's claims for Willowbreeze and Graypool maybe his comment about hollyleaf was hindsight...? in my mind, once leafpool choseher clan over crowfeather, his hurt turned into anger and deep depression, and i think he'd reject them if he knew right away (also that after sunset: we need to talk play thing? wasnt he upset then too?) edit: also, also! i forgot that he moved onto nightcloud kinda quick, seeing as breeze is almost the 3's age (i think he's supposed to be 1-2 moons younger or something? im probably way off)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 28, 2021 18:15:31 GMT -5
Didn't Brambleclaw say that he would have helped them if they had told him the truth? Yep. Just goes to show that Squirrelflight should've just been honest with him about his own kits he's going to help raise from the start. He wasn't even hurt that she lied to him, just that she didn't trust him to help her. I agree she should've been honest, but keep in mind that just because someone says they'll do this or that thing doesn't always mean they'll actually do it. That said, I have no doubt in my mind that Brambleclaw would've accepted the kits even if he'd known that they weren't his from the start and I kinda wish that Squirrelflight and Leafpool had just pulled an Oakheart instead.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 28, 2021 19:51:13 GMT -5
I also think Leafpool and Squirrelflight get too much flack for hiding the parentage considering they were pretty much just following Starclan's instructions.
Spottedleaf, Yellowfang, and Feathertail really the ones at fault here.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2021 20:04:12 GMT -5
I also think Leafpool and Squirrelflight get too much flack for hiding the parentage considering they were pretty much just following Starclan's instructions. Spottedleaf, Yellowfang, and Feathertail really the ones at fault here. true. idk why all the cats r so afraid of disobeying starclan. they're dead relatives. they shouldnt have god like powers like toppling trees or sending lightning, etc. i liked it better when they could only give vague messages in dreams
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 28, 2021 20:27:00 GMT -5
I also think Leafpool and Squirrelflight get too much flack for hiding the parentage considering they were pretty much just following Starclan's instructions. Spottedleaf, Yellowfang, and Feathertail really the ones at fault here. true. idk why all the cats r so afraid of disobeying starclan. they're dead relatives. they shouldnt have god like powers like toppling trees or sending lightning, etc. i liked it better when they could only give vague messages in dreams Yeah, like, I give Leafpool and Squirrelflight a lot of slack given all the ridiculous circumstances surrounding it - including Starclan Spottedleaf, Feathertail, and Yellowfang have no excuse. Especially Spottedleaf with her 'FoLlOW uR HEarT' BS only to go 'Don't follow your heart that way, stupid' later.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2021 20:43:05 GMT -5
true. idk why all the cats r so afraid of disobeying starclan. they're dead relatives. they shouldnt have god like powers like toppling trees or sending lightning, etc. i liked it better when they could only give vague messages in dreams Yeah, like, I give Leafpool and Squirrelflight a lot of slack given all the ridiculous circumstances surrounding it - including Starclan Spottedleaf, Feathertail, and Yellowfang have no excuse. Especially Spottedleaf with her 'FoLlOW uR HEarT' BS only to go 'Don't follow your heart that way, stupid' later. spottedleaf and yellowfang r the worse one imo. feathertail was a bit more personal and selfish saying that she would do it if she were in their paws bc she loves crowfeather....yuck. meanwhile spotted and yellow were more manipulative and dumb. spottedleaf outright tricked leafpool and then guilt tripped her ("i said follow ur heart but i didnt mean LIKE THAT! i didnt tell u to do THAT!") and yellowfang was the worst...outright guilt tripping squirrelflight with blatant lies.
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