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Post by Redstorm on Feb 23, 2021 19:51:27 GMT -5
What do you think would have happened if Ivypool never attacked Hawkfrost at the end of TLH for killing Hollyleaf? Let's also assume Ivypool will never attack Hawkfrost in the future.
Hawkfrost stated he wanted to return home after Bramblestar captured him trying to flee. However Ivypool in her rage attacked him and Hawkfrost fought back which made Bramblestar intervene to kill him.
If Ivypool never attacks, what do you think would happen? Would he have been held prisoner? Escorted back to the Dark Forest? Or would another cat have tried to kill him? Or is he returned to RiverClan as their problem/decision? Or are other Clans asked to help make the decision? Or something else/combination of these options?
What do you think the long term effects would have been?
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 23, 2021 20:28:08 GMT -5
This is an interesting question because it does seem that all the Dark Forest cats were either badly wounded enough to be killed or well off enough to flee. There were no prisoners except for Hawkfrost that we saw. I think it's likely he would have been executed out of hand rather than be kept prisoner or allowed to return to the Dark Forest, Ivypool's attack ultimately would not change his fate. It wouldn't have much in the way of long term consequences unless he does something crazy while prisoner to swing the odds in Tigerstar's favor, like rushing at Firestar and hurting him enough that he can't beat Tigerstar in the upcoming battle. But that doesn't seem Hawkfrost's style, by that point he was too exhausted to go on.
I think the most interesting way this could be handled is if Hawkfrost is kept as a prisoner somehow and misses the ride back to the Dark Forest, and we get a growly Dark Forest cat prisoner in AVOS. The trouble is that I really struggle to see them justifying him being alive for that long with how dangerous he is. If he is somehow kept alive, I feel he'd be a pretty boring prisoner. He lacks any initiative or drive outside of his father, and with that gone, I think he'd just sort of sit there and do very little. If he survives all the way up to Ashfur's reign, then he is definitely being executed then because this is a golden opportunity for the Impostor to say keeping a codebreaker like him around is what's doing all of the damage and no one will judge him for taking care of this particular one.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Feb 23, 2021 21:29:08 GMT -5
Someone else would probably kill him in the heat in the battle- who would pass up a dangerous, injured enemy? If Ivypool hadn't, someone else would have, and there's no real point in keeping him alive and imprisoned.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Feb 24, 2021 11:21:16 GMT -5
This is an interesting question because it does seem that all the Dark Forest cats were either badly wounded enough to be killed or well off enough to flee. There were no prisoners except for Hawkfrost that we saw. I think it's likely he would have been executed out of hand rather than be kept prisoner or allowed to return to the Dark Forest, Ivypool's attack ultimately would not change his fate. It wouldn't have much in the way of long term consequences unless he does something crazy while prisoner to swing the odds in Tigerstar's favor, like rushing at Firestar and hurting him enough that he can't beat Tigerstar in the upcoming battle. But that doesn't seem Hawkfrost's style, by that point he was too exhausted to go on. I think the most interesting way this could be handled is if Hawkfrost is kept as a prisoner somehow and misses the ride back to the Dark Forest, and we get a growly Dark Forest cat prisoner in AVOS. The trouble is that I really struggle to see them justifying him being alive for that long with how dangerous he is. If he is somehow kept alive, I feel he'd be a pretty boring prisoner. He lacks any initiative or drive outside of his father, and with that gone, I think he'd just sort of sit there and do very little. If he survives all the way up to Ashfur's reign, then he is definitely being executed then because this is a golden opportunity for the Impostor to say keeping a codebreaker like him around is what's doing all of the damage and no one will judge him for taking care of this particular one.Wasn't Ashfur working with Hawkfrost in TNP though to set up that fox trap for Firestar? I know that we never saw them together but he admitted it while trapping Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather in the fire during Long Shadows. So I'm actually very curious how Ashfur would react to Hawkfrost's spirit being held as a prisoner in ThunderClan while he himself has taken over the body of Hawkfrost's half-brother as a ghost because their exact relationship was never expanded upon properly. We don't know if they were just partners in crime or perhaps even friends.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 24, 2021 11:51:19 GMT -5
This is an interesting question because it does seem that all the Dark Forest cats were either badly wounded enough to be killed or well off enough to flee. There were no prisoners except for Hawkfrost that we saw. I think it's likely he would have been executed out of hand rather than be kept prisoner or allowed to return to the Dark Forest, Ivypool's attack ultimately would not change his fate. It wouldn't have much in the way of long term consequences unless he does something crazy while prisoner to swing the odds in Tigerstar's favor, like rushing at Firestar and hurting him enough that he can't beat Tigerstar in the upcoming battle. But that doesn't seem Hawkfrost's style, by that point he was too exhausted to go on. I think the most interesting way this could be handled is if Hawkfrost is kept as a prisoner somehow and misses the ride back to the Dark Forest, and we get a growly Dark Forest cat prisoner in AVOS. The trouble is that I really struggle to see them justifying him being alive for that long with how dangerous he is. If he is somehow kept alive, I feel he'd be a pretty boring prisoner. He lacks any initiative or drive outside of his father, and with that gone, I think he'd just sort of sit there and do very little. If he survives all the way up to Ashfur's reign, then he is definitely being executed then because this is a golden opportunity for the Impostor to say keeping a codebreaker like him around is what's doing all of the damage and no one will judge him for taking care of this particular one.Wasn't Ashfur working with Hawkfrost in TNP though to set up that fox trap for Firestar? I know that we never saw them together but he admitted it while trapping Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather in the fire during Long Shadows. So I'm actually very curious how Ashfur would react to Hawkfrost's spirit being held as a prisoner in ThunderClan while he himself has taken over the body of Hawkfrost's half-brother as a ghost because their exact relationship was never expanded upon properly. We don't know if they were just partners in crime or perhaps even friends. Ashfur and Hawkfrost did set things up together, but there's no honor among thieves. I really doubt that Ashfur would miss out on a chance to get some good PR and further his anti-code breaker platform. Besides, keeping a dead man around who has conspired with him before and knows how he acts is a liability. It would be outright dangerous to keep him alive for fear of being blackmailed by him, unless Hawkfrost is on board. IF they were friends, then Ashfur might keep him around, but even then, if he has to choose between a friend and Squirrelflight, Hawkfrost is absolutely going to come out second. Hawkfrost's best chance for survival there is to somehow deduce Ashfur's true identity before anyone else and threaten to reveal it if he's put in any danger. But that would be tough.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Feb 24, 2021 12:04:54 GMT -5
Wasn't Ashfur working with Hawkfrost in TNP though to set up that fox trap for Firestar? I know that we never saw them together but he admitted it while trapping Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf, Lionblaze and Jayfeather in the fire during Long Shadows. So I'm actually very curious how Ashfur would react to Hawkfrost's spirit being held as a prisoner in ThunderClan while he himself has taken over the body of Hawkfrost's half-brother as a ghost because their exact relationship was never expanded upon properly. We don't know if they were just partners in crime or perhaps even friends. Ashfur and Hawkfrost did set things up together, but there's no honor among thieves. I really doubt that Ashfur would miss out on a chance to get some good PR and further his anti-code breaker platform. Besides, keeping a dead man around who has conspired with him before and knows how he acts is a liability. It would be outright dangerous to keep him alive for fear of being blackmailed by him, unless Hawkfrost is on board. IF they were friends, then Ashfur might keep him around, but even then, if he has to choose between a friend and Squirrelflight, Hawkfrost is absolutely going to come out second. Hawkfrost's best chance for survival there is to somehow deduce Ashfur's true identity before anyone else and threaten to reveal it if he's put in any danger. But that would be tough. Sadly we'll never know how it would have turned out but the possibilities that you listed make it seem like Hawkfrost is quite screwed either way. Can't say I feel sorry for him as he brought it onto himself.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 24, 2021 15:10:37 GMT -5
Regardless of the change, Bramblestar would have still been the one to kill Hawk off for good, I doubt they would have given that privilege to any other cat. The same went for Yellowfang vs Brokenstar and Firestar vs Tigerstar in the TLH battle as well.
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Post by Redstorm on Feb 24, 2021 19:22:28 GMT -5
Regardless of the change, Bramblestar would have still been the one to kill Hawk off for good, I doubt they would have given that privilege to any other cat. The same went for Yellowfang vs Brokenstar and Firestar vs Tigerstar in the TLH battle as well. yeah if we're assuming a sudden attack on Hawkfrost, Ivypool (who's quite strong) was one of the strongest warriors and mad struggling against Hawkfrost who hit her spine in a very strong counterattack despite being attacked rather strongly initially. I think almost any cat with incentive of killing Hawkfrost besides possibly Lionblaze would struggle a lot with Hawkfrost and Bramblestar would jump in to prevent any further possible death. Lionblaze was however weakened by Shredtail and his powers definitely didn't seem to do much in that battle, so Bramblestar could still intervene in that case also since Lionblaze was his "son"
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