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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 14:41:11 GMT -5
What do you think about her redemption? I like her as a character, but I thought her redemption was trash. It's good that she sacrificed her life for Violetshine, but it only showed that she cared for Violet and not of others. She didn't really seem sorry about the destruction from what I can remember, though I've heard she tried to help other cats so maybe I'm wrong, I really can't remember tbh.
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#ffe4d0
Name Colour
AsiPasasi
oh it's none of them
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Post by AsiPasasi on Sept 30, 2020 14:46:16 GMT -5
I felt fine with her redemption being aimed mainly towards Violet. I don't think it was ever supposed to be a full redemption because it doesn't feel like she even wants the clans to forgive her. I didn't like how Needletail was pretty much a more destructive Jenny from Forrest Gump but given that, her redemption was kinda good in my point of view
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 30, 2020 14:58:48 GMT -5
Everything from book 3 and before was fine. Her redemption was flawed and a little bit self interested, but that's fine. Not everything is perfect and gray as she is, it works. It's just how she's treated from book 4 on as though she was a saint that's a problem.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 30, 2020 15:24:13 GMT -5
Well, let's take a look at her redemption, shall we? And while we're at it, analyze her actions because she's such an interesting character to me. After Rain dies, she's clearly disturbed after hearing this.
This also marks the first time Needletail goes against Darktail; up until now, she's been nothing but loyal to him, but when Violetpaw tells her that Darktail wanted them to go hunting, she doesn't want to.
Ever since Rain's death, Darktail doesn't trust Needletail simply because of how close the two were. And Needletail is so broken that she even begins to have nightmares.
And yet, Needletail still goes against Darktail in small ways, like helping Alderheart and Mothwing get into the RiverClan camp.
While Mothwing is busy "teaching" Puddleshine about different herbs, Alderheart asks how Needletail how she's doing, but she can't reveal her true feelings about the situation because of Raven.
Unfortunately, Raven told Darktail about the herbs, and he soon had Needletail punished.
After being imprisoned with the other RiverClan cats, Needletail gives them the food Violetpaw brings instead of taking any for herself first, and also defends Violetpaw when she's accused of being loyal to Darktail.
Later on, when Needletail was told of Violetpaw's plan, she told her that all that had happened was her fault and to not take any risks for her.
Later on, after Violetpaw tries to drug Darktail with poppy seeds and fails, and decides to punish Needletail.
After Violetpaw confesses her treachery, Darktail gives Needletail the chance to live if she kills the younger cat; Needletail sacrifices herself for Violetpaw instead, showing that, despite her manipulation, she really does care about the younger cat.
After Needletail dies, she becomes trapped in what appears to be purgatory, along with the rest of Darktail's victims. She wishes to make things right by asking Tree for help.
Needletail continuously shows up in Violetpaw's dreams, saying things like how the younger cat had made her choice. Violetpaw comes to believe that Needletail is angry with her, but it turns out that Needletail doesn't blame her for her death at all.
After she and the others finally get to StarClan, she blames Rowanclaw for what happened to ShadowClan. Completely unfair? Certainly, especially since Needletail herself was one of the first cats who followed Darktail, but she wasn't the only StarClan cat who had blamed him, either. ShadowClan was already unhappy with Rowanstar's leadership, so it was only a matter of time before everything blew up in his face, whether Darktail was around or not. I also never felt like Needletail actually wanted the Clans' forgiveness, it just so happened that only Alderheart and Violetshine (the last cats to see her in a positive light) did.
Needletail is also shown to still care for Twigbranch and Violetshine, and is the one to deliver the next prophecy to Alderheart.
Something else I found interesting is how Needletail's own kin react to her behavior.
Not only has Berryheart been a warrior for several moons now—she and her littermates were born way back in Eclipse—but she's also Needletail's mother and was also one of the cats who joined Darktail willingly before he took over ShadowClan.
And before that, we get this conversation between Snowbird and Beepaw.
Considering that Berryheart is Snowbird's daughter, it wouldn't surprise me if she was also raised with this line of thinking, and taught her own daughter the same thing. This also seems to imply that at least in Snowbird's family, she doesn't really listen to what her kits have to say, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same went for the other apprentices and their own families as well.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it's possible that the reason Needletail turned out the way she did was partially because of how Berryheart possibly raised her; in short, she was simply a product of her environment.
This also kind of makes me wonder exactly what her relationship with her parents was like, especially considering that Sparrowtail stayed in ShadowClan while his mate went to join Darktail. We know from the TS manga that they loved Needletail, but for an arc that focuses so much on kinship, I think it's interesting how there are rarely any interactions between them.
At first, I thought Berryheart joined because she wanted to look after Needletail and Beepaw (her younger sister), but now I'm starting to think there was more to it than just that. Cloverfoot (Berryheart's littermate) also joined before Darktail took over ShadowClan, so she probably shared similar opinions with her own kin.
And this might relate more towards Rowanstar's leadership as a whole, but another thing I noticed is that even in TAS, ShadowClan seems to value strength to the point of letting its apprentices fight over prey with unsheathed claws.
We know ShadowClan has always been the more aggressive Clan, but to let apprentices attack each other over prey? Assuming Needletail had a similar apprenticeship while she was still training with Tawnypelt, her aggressive nature might make sense if she was never reprimanded for it until after it started to become an actual problem. This would also likely explain why the mentors at this time lost control of their apprentices in the first place.
It's also mentioned in TAQ how the older cats would gossip about the other Clans in front of the apprentices, so that couldn't have helped either, especially since it gets to the point where Needlepaw criticizes Rowanstar even long before Darktail shows up.
Then there's the mini rebellion in general, where all of the apprentices felt they weren't being respected, so there might've actually been a problem if every one of them felt this way rather than just Needletail herself, such as when Crowfrost—the deputy and father to three of the rebellious apprentices—implied that the apprentices were dumb because they couldn't remember the rules.
Some cats also felt like ShadowClan wasn't being respected, and the stories the elders told of ShadowClan's glory days clearly had an affect on the apprentices as well. One of the elders—Ratscar—even agreed with them!
I also noticed how in the infamous scene, Stonewing says that Juniperpaw was embarrassing him and twice it was stated how the previous generation of apprentices did what they were told, but no one really did much to get to the bottom of what the issue was. Sure, it was asked why the apprentices was acting up, but most of it was just arguing or vague answers.
So yeah, Rowanstar's poor leadership aside, several things led to ShadowClan's fall that were out of his control.
Going back to Tree and Rain, I noticed that these two toms kind of helped shape Needletail's actions. Needletail met Tree as an apprentice, and he helped her get home after she was taken by an owl; they got home, only to find out that ShadowClan had immediately assumed her to be dead, and Tree was also rejected from joining ShadowClan for not being Clanborn. This resulted in Needletail's resentment for the Clans and warrior code.
Rain was sort of the opposite. She met him when the group got to the gorge, and the two clearly became close in a short amount of time. Then he challenged Darktail in TAS, and this resulted in him losing an eye before losing his life in SS; this is what causes Needletail to realize just how badly she messed up.
What makes this even more sad is how eager Needletail was to train as a warrior. On her first night hunt with Tawnypelt, she really wanted to make a good impression on her mentor and make her Clan proud, but was also really nervous.
Even after she was taken and finally made her first catch, Needlepaw decided to save it for the fresh-kill pile despite her own hunger, and held on to hope that her Clanmates would come and find her.
She meets Tree shortly after, and she isn't immediately friendly towards him, either. In fact, the first thing she does is call him a thief when he tries to take her prey. Even when he tells her she's a day or two day's journey away from the Clans, she still doesn't believe him and instead chooses to believe in Clan stereotypes about outsiders.
It's only until they share the prey that Needlepaw caught does she drop her hostility, and Tree later helps her get back home. After they get back to ShadowClan, Needlepaw is certain that her Clan will want to meet Tree because he helped her out.
However, the reunion isn't exactly what she expected; in fact, her Clanmates were quick to assume she was dead, and Tree is the only one who defends her.
Tawnypelt apologizes right after for underestimating her apprentice, but then underestimates Tree right after just because he was born a loner.
Considering the circumstances as well as Needletail's young age, it doesn't surprise why she turned out the way she did. Honestly, this makes me wonder what would've happened had Tree been allowed to join ShadowClan, or at least had she never met Rain. Maybe she even saw Rain as a sort of replacement for Tree at the time. This also does make me wonder what the exact relationship between her and Rain was like; they clearly liked each other, but I wonder if there was something more to it. It seems like Needletail was so amazed by rogue life and probably missed Tree just as much, that it seems like she liked Rain and the Kin because they weren't like the Clans, but clearly didn't consider the consequences of this.
Tree—though a loner—was also the first non Clanborn cat she had ever met, so maybe she thought all non Clanborn cats were the same, hence why she was so friendly to Bob, who in turn was a really nice kittypet. This is also probably a reason why she was so insistent on taking Violetkit both times, and is noticeably more open-minded to outsiders than even Firestar was. She was looking at life outside the Clans as being better and freer than being a Clan cat, but this idea was shattered the moment she found out another cat she cared about was gone.
It also helps link why she suddenly started to act out more than usual when Alderpaw wanted to take both the kits to ThunderClan other than finding them together. At first, I thought it was inconsistent with what we've seen of Needletail throughout most of TAQ—rebellious, but she wasn't selfish until towards the end of the first book. Of course, this is all just speculation, but it at least helps link up the two personalities; the thought of having Violetkit be taken away probably made her snap.
Honestly, this makes me wish the books had delved into RainxNeedle a little more. This might also be realistic, as this is pretty much at least one reason why some teens might join dangerous groups in the first place—it's not necessarily the people they like, but the lifestyle, or at least the lifestyle those dangerous groups claim to have. At least, until they realize they messed up. Needletail herself was still pretty young when the first three books took place, and she was also a new apprentice when she first met Tree. While this doesn't excuse her behavior, all of this would at least help explain some things.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 30, 2020 15:41:56 GMT -5
I would have been fine with it had she not turned around and still blamed Rowanstar for everything that happened when she literally was to blame for a majority of it. She’s my least favorite cat in the series for many reasons but that’s a big one. Did she die for Violetshine? Yes, and good riddance. Is she redeemed in my eyes? Hard to tell, even if she was, she’s still treated like some hero when she’s absolutely not soooo yeah. It’s a gross redemption if it is one and uh. She can stay dead, please.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 30, 2020 15:50:20 GMT -5
vectoring34 and Moonblazer, To be fair, she's only treated as a good cat by two characters: Alderheart—whom she helped several times before, including the last time he saw her alive—and Violetshine, for obvious reasons. Although, considering she never told her kits about her, it does seem like she has some complicated feelings towards her now that she's older and has had time to process things. Everyone else rightfully calls her out whenever she's being hypocritical, and even Tawnypelt makes it clear that she hasn't forgiven her former apprentice. Now, whether you feel like the narrative itself excuses her actions is another thing entirely, and understandably so since Alderheart and Violetshine were both PoV characters and Twigbranch didn't really know her that well.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 30, 2020 18:04:09 GMT -5
vectoring34 and Moonblazer , To be fair, she's only treated as a good cat by two characters: Alderheart—whom she helped several times before, including the last time he saw her alive—and Violetshine, for obvious reasons. Although, considering she never told her kits about her, it does seem like she has some complicated feelings towards her now that she's older and has had time to process things. Everyone else rightfully calls her out whenever she's being hypocritical, and even Tawnypelt makes it clear that she hasn't forgiven her former apprentice. Now, whether you feel like the narrative itself excuses her actions is another thing entirely, and understandably so since Alderheart and Violetshine were both PoV characters and Twigbranch didn't really know her that well. The narrative does excuse her. One need look no further than the Starclan scene where she can make smug comments shunting all of the blame onto Rowanstar and be treated as the one who is correct there. While she wasn't the only one, that doesn't mean much as one of the failings of AVOS was indeed dumping everything onto Rowanstar to sanctify Tigerheart.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 30, 2020 18:32:28 GMT -5
vectoring34 and Moonblazer , To be fair, she's only treated as a good cat by two characters: Alderheart—whom she helped several times before, including the last time he saw her alive—and Violetshine, for obvious reasons. Although, considering she never told her kits about her, it does seem like she has some complicated feelings towards her now that she's older and has had time to process things. Everyone else rightfully calls her out whenever she's being hypocritical, and even Tawnypelt makes it clear that she hasn't forgiven her former apprentice. Now, whether you feel like the narrative itself excuses her actions is another thing entirely, and understandably so since Alderheart and Violetshine were both PoV characters and Twigbranch didn't really know her that well. The narrative does excuse her. One need look no further than the Starclan scene where she can make smug comments shunting all of the blame onto Rowanstar and be treated as the one who is correct there. While she wasn't the only one, that doesn't mean much as one of the failings of AVOS was indeed dumping everything onto Rowanstar to sanctify Tigerheart. You mean this scene? Perhaps it's simply a matter of perspective then, but while the narrative is clearly painting Rowanclaw in a bad light with every cat blaming him, I personally didn't see the book as trying to absolve Needletail of her own actions either, considering what older cats like Yellowfang and even Shadowstar were saying. That being said, I can still completely understand being annoyed with this scene because of what Needletail herself is saying and it's in fact one of the few things I hated about RoF.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 30, 2020 23:33:02 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people either think Rowan is completely at fault or Needletail. I feel like both hold blame but more so Rowan because of his authority and ranking. It's a bit ridiculous to think that ShadowClan is feeble enough to fall because of a rebellious apprentice. When in reality, she was one of the factors. If Rowan's clan is that weak to fall apart because of an apprentice, I don't think he's doing that good of a job. At the same time, I still personally believe that the majority of the blame falls on Onestar, but we all know he won't get punished for what he did now, will he? On that note, I don't mind Needletail's "redemption" but they honestly could have fleshed it out better. But honestly, her character mostly revolved around Violetshine anyways, so it makes sense that she'd get redeemed through saving her life. A life for a life I suppose.
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Post by Rio on Oct 1, 2020 6:35:21 GMT -5
I love Needletail. Her moral ambiguity makes her my absolute fav. Needletail was never meant to be a hero, but she isn’t truly bad either. She’s complex, she isn’t a hive mind like so many other clan cats and she is capable of taking noble actions where and when she sees fit(giving the herbs to Alderheart and sacrificing herself for Violetshine). When you break her down to her wants and needs, she is an extremely lonely character, which is established straight away. Almost all of her relationships with her clanmates are superficial or are strained in some way. Her “wants" may be to change Shadowclan, but deep down, her “needs” are to have genuine, meaningful relationships with others. Violetpaw fills that need, and so from Needletail’s perspective, Violetpaw IS her priority. She likely feels bad about what happened to Shadowclan but the cats that were her clanmates never really showed much genuine care towards her either. It would be extremely out of character if she were to say, sacrifice herself for Rowanstar or something. The only other "redemption arc" I could see working for her would be her being the one to rebuild Shadowclan. However, like I mentioned before, Needletail’s priorities are far more personal, her life doesn't revolve around Shadowclan, so I can’t see Needlestar being high on her agenda.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 1, 2020 10:19:13 GMT -5
Her redemption is trash
Redemption implies she realizes she did anything wrong, but she dies and still blames everyone else. I hate her.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Oct 1, 2020 11:49:14 GMT -5
What *Ottersplash* says lol. I don't like Needletail or her redemption. She dies, then blames everyone else in StarClan. That was the reason the problem in ShadowClan started. They didn't have respect for their leader or listen to him. They blamed all their problems on him when it wasn't his fault. She's probably down there on my least favourite character list.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 18:07:45 GMT -5
ive made it clear that while i like her, its more for the potential of her character. really, really wanted violet to have an arc where she recovers from the trauma needletail put her through and comes to terms with the fact that while she loves needle, needle was not very good to her. instead we got “i have never done anything wrong, ever” needletail
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 1, 2020 18:25:16 GMT -5
ive made it clear that while i like her, its more for the potential of her character. really, really wanted violet to have an arc where she recovers from the trauma needletail put her through and comes to terms with the fact that while she loves needle, needle was not very good to her. instead we got “i have never done anything wrong, ever” needletail Considering that Violetshine has never mentioned Needletail to her kits even though her daughter is named after her and one of the articles on the website makes mention of how complicated the relationship was, I'm hoping we'll get at least some sort of implication that she now views Needletail differently than she'd initially did, especially now that she's older and has a much better support system. I doubt it, but it'd still be nice to have those complex feelings acknowledged by Violetshine herself.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Oct 15, 2020 9:48:26 GMT -5
Her redemption is trash Redemption implies she realizes she did anything wrong, but she dies and still blames everyone else. I hate her. THIS!!!!!
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