#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 22, 2020 21:32:43 GMT -5
Apparently I have alot of feelings towards the Super Editions than I realized. Anyway, for context for those who don't remember, in FQ, Spottedleaf comes to Firestar and Sandstorm to help them after Patchfoot gets injured by rats; during this, Sandstorm finds out about Spottedleaf's visits and initially believes that Firestar loves the medicine cat more until they both reassure her that it isn't true.
And then we get this just before she leaves:
Thoughts?
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 22, 2020 21:38:16 GMT -5
When I saw that I had the biggest feeling she was only saying what Sandstorm wanted to hear, and the quote you mentioned was her true feelings on the matter.
It makes Spottedleaf seem selfish tbh. She knows how insecure Sandstorm is about her, yet the moment she leaves after she says that she will always be a Medicine Cat and blah blah, she prods Firestar with a fricking "I wish you were with me instead" implication and hangs the "possibility" over his head once more despite the fact he clearly loves and chooses Sandstorm and she won't stop hovering around him confusing his feelings. No stop that.
Especially when you remember how salty she is in SHA to the point of wishing for Sandstorm to be gone so that she can have Firestar for herself. She's gross.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 22, 2020 21:44:24 GMT -5
she was wishing for the chance at a life that was ripped away from her at a young age. i dont see whats selfish about that. i think she meant what she told sandstorm; firestar would spend his whole life with sandstorm, a hundred times more than he ever did with her, there's no way he could love spottedleaf more.
my interpretation was that she will always care for firestar, and he will always care for her. they will both wonder what may have happened had she not died. it's a wistfulness for a "might have been". but at the same time they both recognize that she did die, and whatever might have happened, firestar became wholly committed and in-love with sandstorm in a way he could never be with a dead cat.
they were first loves. it was gentle, and sweet, but never had a chance to develop into anything more. and so it will always leave a bittersweet taste in their mouths.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 22, 2020 21:48:18 GMT -5
She definitely only said she supported them to make Sandstorm chill. She's also mentioned wishing Sandstorm would disappear. Spottedleaf is just so gross to me. I hate her.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Jul 23, 2020 3:34:04 GMT -5
Yeah, this is one of the biggest wtf Spottedleaf moments in the series. Literally moments after telling Sandstorm that Firestar loves her, Spottedleaf whispers a confession to him while brushing up to him. If she knows that Firestar loves Sandstorm, why is she deliberately flirting with him as soon as she's out of earshot? It's like she wants Firestar to cheat on Sandstorm with her in his dreams. I really wish Firestar noticed what she was doing and yelled at her or something because that's such a terrible thing to do.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 23, 2020 9:13:51 GMT -5
Ugh. Spottedleaf in general, is a gross character. In SHA, she does not see the problem in padding after a married man and whining about Firestar breaking things off with her. Imagine Leafkit and Squirrelkit, in the nursery, not even knowing their dad is being visited by a woman from 20 years ago. Spottedleaf didn't have to say it, she could've just thought it and let it go. But no, she just has to say it.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 9:37:57 GMT -5
damn didn't realize so many people interpreted spottedleaf so radically differently than i did
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Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Jul 23, 2020 9:41:41 GMT -5
Seriously Spottedleaf JUST ACCEPT THAT YOU WON'T BE WITH FIRESTAR EVER AND JUST LET IT GO ALREADY THIS IS JUST SKETCH CREEPY. Spootedleaf= Spottedfirestalker
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Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Jul 23, 2020 9:46:20 GMT -5
Ugh. Spottedleaf in general, is a gross character. In SHA, she does not see the problem in padding after a married man and whining about Firestar breaking things off with her. Imagine Leafkit and Squirrelkit, in the nursery, not even knowing their dad is being visited by a woman from 20 years ago. Spottedleaf didn't have to say it, she could've just thought it and let it go. But no, she just has to say it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. She is like a second TFA, FE, and NW Ivypool but instead of whining about family, she whines about a cat breaking up with her. This is a lot like Firestar being a married man but a teenage grl (Spottedleaf) still tries to flirt with him. It is just soooooo annoying Thank you for coming to my Spottedleaf rant
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 23, 2020 10:41:06 GMT -5
damn didn't realize so many people interpreted spottedleaf so radically differently than i did I think it's because you might have a point if she didn't do things so maliciously Whispering a confession to Firestar in front of his mate? Sleazy And then she talks about how she wishes Sandstorm would disappear in another book. She's just so nasty whenever she talks about Sandstorm that it's hard to feel sorry for her. If she was just sad but supportive and understanding, it might be easier to empathize with her, but she seems to enjoy stringing Firestar along because she seems obsessed
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Post by Oceanmist97 on Jul 23, 2020 11:36:05 GMT -5
I just don't have it in me to hate Spottedleaf. I think her situation is quite tragic; losing your life so young and then being forced to watch the one you love spend his life with someone else. It's quite a depressing situation. Sandstorm got to grow old with Firestar, raise his kits, while Spottedleaf was sentenced to be young forever, a ghost of her past. I don't believe it's selfish to wish for things to be different, especially when you had such a tough go of it.
On that note... is it wrong for Spottedleaf to communicate these feelings as often as she did? Yeah, it is. There's that passage from Firestar's Quest, there's Spottedleaf's Honest Answer, the poor girl never really could move on. But should Sandstorm feel as jealous as she did? Well, I guess she has the right to, but Spottedleaf is not a threat in any way.
I think she redeemed herself with the whole Mapleshade vs. Sandstorm business, but did she really need to die? Why couldn't Firestar live peacefully with Spottedleaf and Sandstorm in StarClan? This whole business of "choosing mates in StarClan" is the main reason why Spottedleaf got perma-death as her destiny. In the end, Spottedleaf was an expendable character from start to finish.
I get why people hate her, and for a long time, I did too. But she's just a tragic character who didn't deserve to die.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 12:10:36 GMT -5
damn didn't realize so many people interpreted spottedleaf so radically differently than i did I think it's because you might have a point if she didn't do things so maliciously Whispering a confession to Firestar in front of his mate? Sleazy And then she talks about how she wishes Sandstorm would disappear in another book. She's just so nasty whenever she talks about Sandstorm that it's hard to feel sorry for her. If she was just sad but supportive and understanding, it might be easier to empathize with her, but she seems to enjoy stringing Firestar along because she seems obsessed see i never saw those things as being malicious or sleazy. i think spottedleaf dwelled too much on what she couldn't have, but it never came off as possessive or creepy. Let's examine some of the quotes in question. To me, Spottedleaf is quietly confessing to Firestar (1) that she hadn't died and (2) that she hadn't chosen to be a medicine cat so they had had a chance. But she was 100% truthful to Sandstorm: regardless of hindsight, she did choose to be a medicine cat and was wholly dedicated to its pursuit, so even if she had lived, they still wouldn't be mates. Her confession was an expression of honest regret, letting Firestar know that she wished things could have been different as much as he did. To me, saying it quietly is an expression of kind awareness of Sandstorm's insecurity, knowing that Sandstorm might internalize and misinterpret that wistfulness-- not an admission of lying or false sincerity to Sandstorm. I don't think it's necessarily wise for Spottedleaf to dwell on her lost life just because it doesn't do her any good. But i don't see it as an objective wrong against Firestar and Sandstorm. In fact, this seems to be the only time in all the books she directly admits it to anyone. Here is the only other time in the main books that I could find where she is depicted as wistful in some way: She's mentioned as not being as pleased as expected. Of course she's going to be a bit conflicted over it. On one hand, she's probably happy that Sand and Fire are happy! But on the other, it's another reminder of what she could never have. It's a very human reaction. Watching the ex you are in love with move on and be happy is very bittersweet. Let's look at the quote from SHA: This quote depends heavily on how you understand it: whether you believe the "I hope" applies to the second clause as well as the first. I instead read it as a rhetorical question. The immediately preceding one is certainly rhetorical: "Do you think I don't know how hopeless this is?" with the implication that of course she knows. I therefore read the next sentence similarly: "Do you think I still hope that he'll be mine of day [...etc]", with a similar implication that of course she doesn't still hope that. In fact, the whole rest of the narration is her explaining how much she understands that while she loves Firestar, she completely realizes that their fates were sealed and she has no hope after everything that he will be hers some day. Even if she was hoping that things were different, I wouldn't see that as malicious. She's not actively wishing Sandstorm would vanish. She's stating all the conditions that would need to happen in order for her and Firestar to have had any chance: that she wasn't a medicine cat, that there was no Sandstorm, that she didn't die, etc. Not that she actually wants Sandstorm to die/vanish/etc. Seems pretty clear to me. She's "human" and will always wish for what could have been, but at the end of the day she recognizes what reality is and that Firestar (and Sandstorm's) happiness is what matters now. Moreover, she reinforces this belief at her second death: She literally gave up the possibility of spending a happy eternity with Firestar in heaven to save Sandstorm, defending her against accusations that Sandstorm was somehow to blame or that Spottedleaf somehow "deserved" Firestar's love. Because despite what her heart wanted, Spottedleaf understood with her head that the past was the past, no matter how hard it was for her. This kinda reminds me of the Lionblaze discourse, how people thought he was a terrible cat because he had a violent imagination. Just because you think or feel something, doesn't mean you're a terrible person. It's your actions. I could not find any textual evidence of her purposefully stringing Firestar along. Only well-meant guidance coming from a place of love. Neither could I find her being "nasty" to Sandstorm--quite the opposite, in fact.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 23, 2020 12:13:49 GMT -5
if spottedleaf were a guy and firestar a girl, everyone would call her the same bad names people use for bumblestripe and ashfur.
spottedleaf wasn't THAT young when she died. people think she is not much older than firestar, but thanks to the SE's and novellas, she's...much much older...which makes her whole creeper thing even WORSE, if you ask me.
spottedleaf is selfish and entitled and just plain CREEPY.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 12:16:27 GMT -5
if spottedleaf were a guy and firestar a girl, everyone would call her the same bad names people use for bumblestripe and ashfur. spottedleaf wasn't THAT young when she died. people think she is not much older than firestar, but thanks to the SE's and novellas, she's...much much older...which makes her whole creeper thing even WORSE, if you ask me. spottedleaf is selfish and entitled and just plain CREEPY. spottedleaf was older than brokenstar when he died lol. shes so much older than people act, she didnt “die young” at all. many, many characters died younger and with unresolved conflicts who dont act anywhere near as creepy and obsessive as her.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 23, 2020 12:21:52 GMT -5
if spottedleaf were a guy and firestar a girl, everyone would call her the same bad names people use for bumblestripe and ashfur. spottedleaf wasn't THAT young when she died. people think she is not much older than firestar, but thanks to the SE's and novellas, she's...much much older...which makes her whole creeper thing even WORSE, if you ask me. spottedleaf is selfish and entitled and just plain CREEPY. spottedleaf was older than brokenstar when he died lol. shes so much older than people act, she didnt “die young” at all. many, many characters died younger and with unresolved conflicts who dont act anywhere near as creepy and obsessive as her. oh no, she's even OLDER? big yikes. proof that the cycle of you-know-what from thistleclaw passed onto spottedleaf...kinda sad, but i'm glad firestar turned out normal despite all of spottedleaf's creeping.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 12:24:01 GMT -5
spottedleaf was older than brokenstar when he died lol. shes so much older than people act, she didnt “die young” at all. many, many characters died younger and with unresolved conflicts who dont act anywhere near as creepy and obsessive as her. oh no, she's even OLDER? big yikes. proof that the cycle of you-know-what from thistleclaw passed onto spottedleaf...kinda sad, but i'm glad firestar turned out normal despite all of spottedleaf's creeping. not by too much (shes two moons older than him apparently) but yeah people act like she was a new medicine cat or smth. itd actually be interesting if the cycle of abuse was discussed in a mature and reasonable way but after SH i rlly dont trust them with it
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 12:49:43 GMT -5
if spottedleaf were a guy and firestar a girl, everyone would call her the same bad names people use for bumblestripe and ashfur. spottedleaf wasn't THAT young when she died. people think she is not much older than firestar, but thanks to the SE's and novellas, she's...much much older...which makes her whole creeper thing even WORSE, if you ask me. spottedleaf is selfish and entitled and just plain CREEPY. older than firestar doesn't mean "old". she was about 4 years at death, which is still pretty young. moreover, Spottedleaf was considered quite young until her age was later retconned in BP. that came out in 2009, so through TPB, FQ, and SHA (all published 2008 or earlier) her canon age was much younger. by the time she was aged up in BP she and Firestar already had a very well-established connection. actually, after BP, there aren't any spotted x fire scenes/implications until she dies in TLH. the only time she shows up for the reader is to the medicine cats and squirrelflight. unless im remembering wrong. so it's only in hindsight after her age was retconned that the age gap can seem "creepy" EDIT: wrong age ope
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 23, 2020 19:32:42 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 19:37:54 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit?
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 23, 2020 19:40:04 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit? Some people (or cats) are weird that way. It simply makes no sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 20:23:25 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. didnt she confirm that she spends most of her time watching over him while the other cats in StarClan feel sorry for her? Its sad.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 23, 2020 20:32:12 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. didnt she confirm that she spends most of her time watching over him while the other cats in StarClan feel sorry for her? Its sad. Something like that. It was in SHA. Here's the full text.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 20:42:03 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit? she actually specifies multiple times in SHA and elsewhere that Sandstorm is who he's meant to be with and that she knows her and Firestar wouldn't be a thing, ever
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 24, 2020 10:44:13 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. didnt she confirm that she spends most of her time watching over him while the other cats in StarClan feel sorry for her? Its sad. In the nicest way possible... Spottedleaf, please get a life. Oh, wait. She's dead now. Never mind.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 28, 2020 15:46:40 GMT -5
I personally just wish that she'd stopped pining for Firestar when he and Sandstorm were the equivalent of a married couple. Like, enjoy your life in StarClan. You can't really do anything about it. It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit? I know this has nothing to do with the conversation, but your profiles....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 16:06:02 GMT -5
It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit? I know this has nothing to do with the conversation, but your profiles.... I was wondering when someone would notice XD
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 28, 2020 20:25:28 GMT -5
It's kind of weird that she was pining for him in the first place, especially since he was an apprentice when she died. Did she actually think that Firestar would leave his living, breathing, mate, who he could grow old with...for a spirit? I know this has nothing to do with the conversation, but your profiles.... Someone noticed! I know. It's great, isn't it?
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