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Post by sageheart on Jul 22, 2020 21:21:48 GMT -5
Out of the 16 leaders we have had in the main series (including skyclan) only 4 have been she cats. Do you think this is a problem? Do we need more female leaders?
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 22, 2020 21:22:44 GMT -5
It's definitely weird but I'm not going full Tumblr and screaming sexism like I've seen some do. I don't think the Erins even notice it tbh.
I would love another female leader, preferably one who's respected, because they really aren't doing it for me with Squirrelflight sadly (IK she's moreso a psuedo-leader for now but as it stands she's leader).
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 22, 2020 21:30:11 GMT -5
i don't notice these things, so probably not to me
EDIT: also what are we counting as "main series" here? because there's leafstar, bluestar, heatherstar, mistystar, windstar, shadowstar, doestar, darkstar, half moon...and then more obscure ones like flowerstar
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 22, 2020 21:51:55 GMT -5
I would love more female leaders so long as they're qualified and not leader for the sake of being a woman.
I mean, Leafstar is amazing
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Post by wftl1980 on Jul 22, 2020 21:55:16 GMT -5
It’s an imbalance that’s grating, because there’s no good reason for it. How long, out of entire lifetime, does a mother cat stay in the nursery? 7moons from when she’s heavily pregnant to when her kids are apprenticed.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 22, 2020 21:58:38 GMT -5
It’s an imbalance that’s grating, because there’s no good reason for it. How long, out of entire lifetime, does a mother cat stay in the nursery? 7moons from when she’s heavily pregnant to when her kids are apprenticed. And even then, nursing kits doesn't make her incapable of making important decisions
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Post by Hollyfall on Jul 22, 2020 22:06:23 GMT -5
As long as their qualification is not "being female" like some members of the fandom think, I'm all for it. The Clans are pretty equal and egalitarian as it is, so there isn't really any specific lore reason as to why male leaders tend to outnumber the females. It was probably just an oversight, and not on purpose, to be honest.
Though in the end, I'd rather have a qualified leader over an unqualified one, regardless of their gender. That's just me though.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 22, 2020 22:11:15 GMT -5
As long as all of the acting leaders at one time aren't the same sex, I literally don't care.
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Post by sageheart on Jul 22, 2020 22:32:07 GMT -5
i don't notice these things, so probably not to me EDIT: also what are we counting as "main series" here? because there's leafstar, bluestar, heatherstar, mistystar, windstar, shadowstar, doestar, darkstar, half moon...and then more obscure ones like flowerstar i was just counting TPB-TBC
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 22, 2020 22:43:10 GMT -5
i don't notice these things, so probably not to me EDIT: also what are we counting as "main series" here? because there's leafstar, bluestar, heatherstar, mistystar, windstar, shadowstar, doestar, darkstar, half moon...and then more obscure ones like flowerstar i was just counting TPB-TBC Interesting. I counted 23 in the main arcs, if you count Raggedstar and Squirrelflight Bluestar, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Brokenstar, Nightstar, Tigerstar I, Blackstar, Firestar, Leopardstar, Onestar, Mistystar, Rowanstar, Tigerstar II, Harestar, Windstar, Skystar, Shadowstar, Thunderstar, Riverstar, Bramblestar, Leafstar
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Post by wftl1980 on Jul 22, 2020 22:56:02 GMT -5
As long as their qualification is not "being female" like some members of the fandom think, I'm all for it. The Clans are pretty equal and egalitarian as it is, so there isn't really any specific lore reason as to why male leaders tend to outnumber the females. It was probably just an oversight, and not on purpose, to be honest. Though in the end, I'd rather have a qualified leader over an unqualified one, regardless of their gender. That's just me though. Who is being touted as a leader who is unqualified?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 22, 2020 23:00:00 GMT -5
As long as their qualification is not "being female" like some members of the fandom think, I'm all for it. The Clans are pretty equal and egalitarian as it is, so there isn't really any specific lore reason as to why male leaders tend to outnumber the females. It was probably just an oversight, and not on purpose, to be honest. Though in the end, I'd rather have a qualified leader over an unqualified one, regardless of their gender. That's just me though. Who is being touted as a leader who is unqualified? The only one I can think of is Bristlefrost. There have been other females suggested like Lilyheart and Rosepetal, but I don't think they're unqualified
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Post by wftl1980 on Jul 23, 2020 2:50:07 GMT -5
Who is being touted as a leader who is unqualified? The only one I can think of is Bristlefrost. There have been other females suggested like Lilyheart and Rosepetal, but I don't think they're unqualified Bristlefrost stood down because she knew she wasn’t ready. If we wind up with Lionstar; I think a younger, more levelheaded deputy like Lilyheart would work well. Daughter of Brackenfur and Sorreltail, kin of Lionheart and Whitestorm/Bluestar, it’s be a nice callback to those lines.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 23, 2020 3:07:05 GMT -5
i was just counting TPB-TBC Interesting. I counted 23 in the main arcs, if you count Raggedstar and Squirrelflight Bluestar, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Brokenstar, Nightstar, Tigerstar I, Blackstar, Firestar, Leopardstar, Onestar, Mistystar, Rowanstar, Tigerstar II, Harestar, Windstar, Skystar, Shadowstar, Thunderstar, Riverstar, Bramblestar, Leafstar If you take your list and discount Squirrelflight because she's not a -star, discount Raggedstar because he was before TPB, and discount the Original Five because they were in a prequel arc (so they aren't traditionally part of the main series), you get the 4/16 Sageheart was talking about.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 8:49:09 GMT -5
Interesting. I counted 23 in the main arcs, if you count Raggedstar and Squirrelflight Bluestar, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Brokenstar, Nightstar, Tigerstar I, Blackstar, Firestar, Leopardstar, Onestar, Mistystar, Rowanstar, Tigerstar II, Harestar, Windstar, Skystar, Shadowstar, Thunderstar, Riverstar, Bramblestar, Leafstar If you take your list and discount Squirrelflight because she's not a -star, discount Raggedstar because he was before TPB, and discount the Original Five because they were in a prequel arc (so they aren't traditionally part of the main series), you get the 4/16 Sageheart was talking about. Why discount DOTC? They said the main arcs so I would think that just excludes SEs/Novellas
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Post by sageheart on Jul 23, 2020 9:37:13 GMT -5
If you take your list and discount Squirrelflight because she's not a -star, discount Raggedstar because he was before TPB, and discount the Original Five because they were in a prequel arc (so they aren't traditionally part of the main series), you get the 4/16 Sageheart was talking about. Why discount DOTC? They said the main arcs so I would think that just excludes SEs/Novellas if we are including DOTC, then 6/21 leaders are female
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 23, 2020 9:43:03 GMT -5
idk man my attitude is that while there's a lot less female leaders, an equal number of the series protagonists have been female (8/17) and there's been plenty of well-written female characters in general so it really doesnt bug me.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 23, 2020 12:18:24 GMT -5
idk man my attitude is that while there's a lot less female leaders, an equal number of the series protagonists have been female (8/17) and there's been plenty of well-written female characters in general so it really doesnt bug me. that's what i think too. there's been WAY too many female protagonists these days with the same premise. bluefur and snowfur, squirrelflight and leafpool, dovewing and ivypool, twigbranch and violetshine.....it's *always* 2 sisters with issues with things and with each other. where are all the brothers? the male only litters? look at breezepelt and heathertail, they've been having only daughters. i bet if we got windclan POV, one of their many daughters would be the protag/POV. and people will call me sexist (again) for pointing this out...just becase "there's not enough females in power" when riverclan and skyclan (and cloverfoot from shadowclan) are right there lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 12:26:31 GMT -5
idk man my attitude is that while there's a lot less female leaders, an equal number of the series protagonists have been female (8/17) and there's been plenty of well-written female characters in general so it really doesnt bug me. that's what i think too. there's been WAY too many female protagonists these days with the same premise. bluefur and snowfur, squirrelflight and leafpool, dovewing and ivypool, twigbranch and violetshine.....it's *always* 2 sisters with issues with things and with each other. where are all the brothers? the male only litters? look at breezepelt and heathertail, they've been having only daughters. i bet if we got windclan POV, one of their many daughters would be the protag/POV. and people will call me sexist (again) for pointing this out...just becase "there's not enough females in power" when riverclan and skyclan (and clvoerfoot) are right there lol This. Also, the female protagonists seem to have a stronger focus in the arcs. Who is the most remembered in AVOS? It sure as heck isn't Alderheart. In TNP? Leafpool, Squirrelflight, and Feathertail are talked about way more than Bramblestar and Stormfur. In OOTS, Dovewing and Ivypool get way more focus than Lionblaze, granted Lionblaze got a POV in POT, but still. The last male only litter (that we know of) was Mallownose and Sneezecloud, who were born in POT. A lot of characters, especially characters who end up important to the story, have only daughters. Firestar x Sandstorm - Daughters Birchfall x Whitewing - Daughters Hawkwing x Pebbleshine - Daughters Breezepelt x Heathertail - 2 litters of just daughters Dovewing x Tigerheart - Not all daughters, but 2 daughters, 1 son. Ivypool x Fernson - Same as Dovewing. And they're not important, but Snowbird and Scorchfur have had 9 kits, 7 daughters, and 2 sons, one of those sons is now dead, and the other is a kittypet.
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Post by Papillon on Jul 23, 2020 14:54:34 GMT -5
We definitely need more. All five clans should have female leaders at once.
I loved when in RiverClan, they had the leader med cat and deputy all she cats
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2020 15:00:24 GMT -5
We definitely need more. All four clans should have female leaders at once. I loved when in RiverClan, they had the leader med cat and deputy all she cats There's five clans now XD
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Post by Papillon on Jul 23, 2020 15:02:27 GMT -5
lmfao woops :] i did know that though
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Post by highprince on Jul 23, 2020 16:08:27 GMT -5
I really don't care. There isn't any kind of focus on gender in warriors aside from the occasional drama about female leaders and deputies having kits, but that seems to have faded. If they all suddenly got genderbent it wouldn't really make a difference.
Plus, as others have said, the majority of protagonists and important characters have daughters, or are female, and a lot of the important relationships are between sisters. The last emphasis on brothers I remember is Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw, and one turned out to be evil. You could say Lionblaze and Jayfeather but the fact that they're brothers doesn't feel as important as most of the sister bonds.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 23, 2020 16:47:26 GMT -5
The last emphasis on brothers I remember is Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw, and one turned out to be evil. You could say Lionblaze and Jayfeather but the fact that they're brothers doesn't feel as important as most of the sister bonds. Clear Sky and Gray Wing
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 23, 2020 17:08:56 GMT -5
The last emphasis on brothers I remember is Hawkfrost and Brambleclaw, and one turned out to be evil. You could say Lionblaze and Jayfeather but the fact that they're brothers doesn't feel as important as most of the sister bonds. Clear Sky and Gray Wing that was still mostly a negative relationship. i wish we had more positive brotherly relationships...i can only think of brambleclaw and hawkfrost, which was negative; and then jayfeather and lionblaze, which was positive, but they didn't get that much spotlight as brothers/siblings in OotS when it was just them without hollyleaf...meanwhile we got a crap ton of sister pairs that get spotlight and an actual well written (positive or negative) sibling bond
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 23, 2020 17:12:02 GMT -5
If you take your list and discount Squirrelflight because she's not a -star, discount Raggedstar because he was before TPB, and discount the Original Five because they were in a prequel arc (so they aren't traditionally part of the main series), you get the 4/16 Sageheart was talking about. Why discount DOTC? They said the main arcs so I would think that just excludes SEs/Novellas Yeah, that's valid. It's just that DotC is an arc that doesn't have the same focus as the other six, so it's distinctly different. It doesn't fit within the same timeline that the "main series" does, instead taking place many years before. Combine that with the fact that significantly fewer people have read DotC compared to the other six, and it makes sense that it would typically not be included when talking about the "main series". It's totally up to preference, I've just seen "main series + DotC" more often than I've seen "main series" implicitly including DotC.
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Post by Owl on Jul 23, 2020 17:14:35 GMT -5
that was still mostly a negative relationship. i wish we had more positive brotherly relationships...i can only think of brambleclaw and hawkfrost, which was negative; and then jayfeather and lionblaze, which was positive, but they didn't get that much spotlight as brothers/siblings in OotS when it was just them without hollyleaf...meanwhile we got a crap ton of sister pairs that get spotlight and an actual well written (positive or negative) sibling bond i'm realizing recently that there's been a sharp decline in developed, loving relationships between male characters in warriors, whether that's friendship or familial love. you've got your firegrays and talljakes and ravenbarleys, but as of recently? not much. it's not that these friendships don't exist in the background, but it's like you said, they aren't given much focus or development. this includes jayfeather and lionblaze. there's a lot of material to suggest that rootspring and shadowsight could be close friends, but i really wouldn't be surprised if the erins dropped their developing friendship, especially now that bristle/root is being written in. it's a real shame. i thought alderheart and puddleshine's friendship was great, but we just didn't see enough of it. as for brotherly relationships, i'm flipping through our male protagonists and i'm realizing the vast majority of them only have sisters. this somewhat explains the lack of loving brotherly relationships in the series lately.
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Post by wftl1980 on Jul 23, 2020 19:26:39 GMT -5
We just had an entire book revolving around father/son and brotherly relationships In Crowfeather’s trial. I’d like to see Jayfeather and Breezepelt forced to interact and see what eventuates.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 23, 2020 19:26:50 GMT -5
It doesn't really matter to me, as there's already quite a lot of female protagonists. And I just want a qualified, competent leader, regardless of gender.
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