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Post by frostwish on May 22, 2020 22:38:37 GMT -5
Like, y'all, maybe it is just the fact that I really don't want it to be Ashfur, but I am not convinced. Everything I'm seeing on here seems to be taking for granted that Bramblestar's impostor is Ashfur, and I see how that makes sense with all the Squirrelflight stuff. However, what I really can't get past is the last line of Veil of Shadows. Squirrelflight says that she thinks she knows who the impostor is and that if she is right then this is so much worse than they thought. (It's something like that. I don't have the book anymore, so if someone who does wants to provide the quote below, I would be very grateful.) However much potential for evil Ashfur had, I can't think of anything about him that would make her say that.
In fact, I'm relatively convinced that there must be larger implications of the identity of the impostor than just who he is for her to say that. Like, the fact that it is this specific cat would reveal something larger going on. What could this thing be if it were Ashfur? He's just really not that remarkable of a cat.
My theory? Hawkfrost. It was who I immediately thought of when we discovered the impostor has blue eyes. Now, I know, I know, he was killed in the Great Battle as a spirit so he should be gone for good. That's exactly why I think it might be him. If it were, that would mean cats killed as spirits don't actually disappear forever, which means that all of the cats from the Dark Forest that everyone thought were gone for good actually are not! Now that is a twist I can get behind.
I know this theory doesn't really address the Squirrelflight side of things but... that is not enough to convince me it is false.
(Also, I recognize that all of this hinges on Squirrelflight being right about the impostor's identity, but I am pretty sure she is.)
The other thing that I'm getting hung up on is the list of cats in Shadowsight's vision. I don't have a ton of concrete thoughts on that (and don't know how they would fit in with my Hawkfrost theory), but putting Hawkfrost aside, I think it is possible those names are the key to the identity of the impostor.
But, back to my original question, am I really the only person who is not convinced it is Ashfur?? I can't be.
Wow, ok, that was a long ramble. Please tell me your thoughts! On any of it - why you think it might not be Ashfur, what bigger implications it being Ashfur could have, what you think of my Hawkfrost theory, any insights into the list of cats in Shadowsight's vision, or why I should just give up hope that it isn't Ashfur and accept the inevitable.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 22, 2020 22:41:32 GMT -5
Have you seen the new cover?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 22, 2020 23:33:18 GMT -5
The great thing about VoS is that it basically offered the readers process of elimination, with the imposter having blue eyes. So, that leaves Darktail, Hawkfrost, and Ashfur. Darktail we can immediately cross out for a variety of reasons, and while I can see why you'd think it'd be Hawkfrost, it's at least implied that once a spirit dies a second time, they're gone forever.
This series tends to have very weird rules when it comes to its world building, but to go back on this really specific thing would just make the Great Battle seem... I don't know, cheap, I guess (I really can't think of a better word right now)? Spottedleaf was also killed a second time, so what about her? It'd just be really bad writing imo, like TLH didn't even matter and Firestar died for nothing. And maybe this won't mean much to you since the series gets these wrong all the time, but the imposter is also noted to have specifically dark blue eyes, while Hawkfrost has ice-blue ones.
Then there's also the obsession with Squirrelflight, and only Ashfur really fits that description.
Of course, it's also always possible the authors and editors could've just forgotten that Hawkfrost was killed a second time and what he was like.
That being said, had it not been for that second death, I don't think I'd be completely opposed to him returning, either. Not necessarily as the imposter, but in general since I always felt like he had some wasted potential as a villain.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 22, 2020 23:36:29 GMT -5
None of the impostor's behavior makes any sense if it's Hawkfrost. He explicitly says he came back for Squirrelflight, he falls into a mad despair when he thinks she's dead, and he seems to have little interest in conquest. Hawkfrost is nothing like the impostor.
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Post by Aku on May 22, 2020 23:41:08 GMT -5
Of course, it's also always possible the authors and editors could've just forgotten that Hawkfrost was killed a second time. Devil's advocate with this, editors & Erin's have both forgotten characters have died in the past before, granted not on a large scale of a character like this, but it has happened. Beetlewhisker being their worst offender for this as we did see him die in the series, but later he repeatedly showed up and was listed in the allegiance. Due to him, I wouldn't be too phased if something like this did happen.
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swin
the most inactive
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Post by swin on May 22, 2020 23:59:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty convinced it's Ashfur but I refuse to fully accept it's him until it's official out of spite.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2020 0:02:39 GMT -5
Of course, it's also always possible the authors and editors could've just forgotten that Hawkfrost was killed a second time. Devil's advocate with this, editors & Erin's have both forgotten characters have died in the past before, granted not on a large scale of a character like this, but it has happened. Beetlewhisker being their worst offender for this as we did see him die in the series, but later he repeatedly showed up and was listed in the allegiance. Due to him, I wouldn't be too phased if something like this did happen. That is not even remotely the same thing. A background character that barely any person in the world cares about beyond the fact that he didn't die is not the same as two major arc villains. Even the worst of canon flubs, like Redtail's, involve characters that are very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The nature of fandom makes these differences seem lesser than they are(everyone loves their background characters), but the truth is that the gulf between main character and background filler is massive and what happens to one does not imply scaling to another.
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Post by Numquam on May 23, 2020 0:13:54 GMT -5
I was really hoping it wasn't Ashfur only because I wasn't a fan for how his reasoning of turning bad came out and I just wanted to move on from him entirely Although I suppose it being him could be interesting if they took a "He tricked Starclan and now they all feel dumb" route I'm pretty sure it is him though, but I'm not believing anything definite until we get full confirmation (not just big hints).
I also had a random thought some time ago thinking "maybe it's Hawkfrost and it turns out cats who double died can somehow come back" but it wouldn't exactly explain his actions towards Squirrelflight : ( I know the Erins contradict themselves and change cats a lot but Hawkfrost acting that way to Squirrelflight would seem a little too off even for the Erins imo
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Post by Aku on May 23, 2020 0:14:03 GMT -5
Devil's advocate with this, editors & Erin's have both forgotten characters have died in the past before, granted not on a large scale of a character like this, but it has happened. Beetlewhisker being their worst offender for this as we did see him die in the series, but later he repeatedly showed up and was listed in the allegiance. Due to him, I wouldn't be too phased if something like this did happen. That is not even remotely the same thing. A background character that barely any person in the world cares about beyond the fact that he didn't die is not the same as two major arc villains. Even the worst of canon flubs, like Redtail's, involve characters that are very unimportant in the grand scheme of things. The nature of fandom makes these differences seem lesser than they are(everyone loves their background characters), but the truth is that the gulf between main character and background filler is massive and what happens to one does not imply scaling to another. I mean no offense, but I had a hard time picking up on what you were intending to say. I think I get what you're saying, so if I'm wrong, please correct me o7 I did admit it's not fully the same thing, but it is a similar situation - a character who assumed to be dead has come back due to the poor memory of either the editors or authors. I wasn't really arguing for anything in particular, mainly was listing the worst known case of this happening in the series. If it can happen to background characters, though, then I wouldn't be too surprised if it happened to former major characters.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 23, 2020 0:23:45 GMT -5
It’s one of those things that I’m not excited if it’s Ashfur, but I’m not surprised if it’s Ashfur. I just...care so little about him, you know? I didn’t care if he was in Starclan or not because he was shoved to the back and hardly ever seen/mentioned again. I just kinda don’t get the fascination the series has with Squirrelflight and this whole obsession arc, but yeah.
I will wait until the books say 100 percent who it is, but I’m gonna be unsatisfied either way, probably XD
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Post by platinum blond death on May 23, 2020 0:46:13 GMT -5
I mean, to me, a lot of the hints point to Ashfur. I'd be pretty pissed if they pulled something out of their ass just for a surprise. That being said, I don't mind theorizing. It keeps it interesting, and provides alternatives to Ashfur. I can see why people don't want it to be him, and I'm okay with that.
Anyways, I can't see it being Hawkfrost. He's dead forever and if they bring him back it's going to look like a forced retcon for the sake of plot. Which would also tank the series for me.
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Post by Jaysnow on May 23, 2020 10:42:29 GMT -5
gestures wildly at TPONS cover
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2020 22:04:48 GMT -5
Plot twist: Hawkfrost is possessing Ashfur who's possessing Bramblestar who's possessing Mistystar
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Olivemoon
I guess I'm not new but I'm still lost and pretending like I know what is going on
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Post by Olivemoon on May 26, 2020 14:56:13 GMT -5
Plot twist: Hawkfrost is possessing Ashfur who's possessing Bramblestar who's possessing Mistystar At this point I don't think I would be surprised is Mistystar was possessed.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 26, 2020 15:05:41 GMT -5
Plot twist: Hawkfrost is possessing Ashfur who's possessing Bramblestar who's possessing Mistystar At this point I don't think I would be surprised is Mistystar was possessed. I really think she just has dementia like her great-uncle and mother. She's acting JUST like Bluestar before she passed
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