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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 18, 2020 15:32:55 GMT -5
what if warriors were advanced as the guardians? the guardians can read, write (make their own books, etc), master fire (they have burning coals and can make torches), and they are smart enough to smelt materials to make metal claws and helmets, etc.
i dont think helmets would work for cats, but metal claws would, just look how bloodclan had other animal claws and fangs to put on their claws, etc.
would u like it more or less if warriors had hard core fantasy like this? where animals can be just as intelligent as humans and have access to fire and metal, etc. ?
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 18, 2020 15:41:53 GMT -5
I think it just wouldn’t work with Warriors because they’re four-legged kitties who stay in the forest along side humans there would be way too much suspension of disbelief I would need to do. Reading? Maybe but only in a cat series that isn’t Warriors. I think you’d have to change a lot about Warriors for it to work and at that point just make them stand up. Ga’Hoole is long after humans have died out and it works for the owls a bit more differently than it does for the cats in Warriors.
EDIT: I already was rolling my eyes when I read BloodClan using animal teeth to reinforce their claws.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 18, 2020 15:43:17 GMT -5
sorethroati think that's true. there's other cat series that have a few of the elements i listed. it also helps that owls talons act like hands lol do u remember lion king 2 where they took sticks in their mouths and lit them on fire? that's how warriors would be if they could access fire
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Post by kinkajou on Apr 18, 2020 15:47:46 GMT -5
Could be a fun AU but I prefer regular warriors
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 18, 2020 15:49:33 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ I can buy the cats using fire like that and I’ve seen some fan fiction writers do it; I don’t mind that personally. I’ve read books and watched movies where the animals will go from running on four legs and walking on two, like Redwall did a few times. I think it depends on how much anthropomorphism the writer is going to allow.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 18, 2020 15:51:00 GMT -5
sorethroatoh god...cats and dogs on two legs? that's SUPER fantasy lol how would cats in warriors learn to read? since humans exist in warriors and they dont exist in ga'hoole, then kittypets could evolve to read? sounds like a fun idea
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Post by Sundance on Apr 18, 2020 16:00:15 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting :-D (I wish Guardians of Ga’Hoole had as much of a fanbase as Warriors, I loved it just as much back in the day)
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“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 18, 2020 16:02:29 GMT -5
ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆Well the kittypets already do know human language to a point that they know what a Burmese is so there might be a literate cat out there somewhere, lol. I don’t think that’s out of the realm of possibility. Okay I was very wrong and I could find that plausible.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 18, 2020 16:04:44 GMT -5
I would like it if the cats used a few more primitive tools, but Ga'hoole levels of industry should not be a thing. I think more Stone Age than Medieval when it comes to their technology. Using sharpened stones like Puddleshine did to cut tails off could be expanded upon further, maybe use it for medical procedures or as weapons. Static defenses and structures could also be constructed, like a beaver dam type structure to better defend camps. Maybe also more artistic symbolism amongst each other, like using feathers, bones, skins, claws, and so on as trophies or symbols of status. Fire is an interesting topic, because making fire is just going to be very hard for animals without thumbs. The owls get by by snatching embers from forest fires, but cats can't really pull this off for reasons that should be pretty obvious. So fire I think is out of the cards due to their anatomical limitations. They could pull a Lion King and grab burning sticks, but that's a very improvisational method rather than something consistent. They'd have to wait for fires to start naturally.
If I were to put it archaeologically, then they'd have an Oldowan-type industry or maybe a bit of the Acheulean industry. However, high Acheulean techniques are beyond them and many of the other technologies of the likes of Homo erectus and heidlbergensis need not apply. Lower Paleolithic is as far as I'd say they can go, I'd say.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 18, 2020 16:07:09 GMT -5
vectoring34oh interesting take. in ga'hoole, they collect burning coals and other debris and keep it in a stone casing to keep it burning, so to speak. and since warriors already build things such as reinforcing dens, i wonder how far they could stretch that
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 18, 2020 16:18:59 GMT -5
vectoring34 oh interesting take. in ga'hoole, they collect burning coals and other debris and keep it in a stone casing to keep it burning, so to speak. and since warriors already build things such as reinforcing dens, i wonder how far they could stretch that The problem isn't keeping coals alive, it's grabbing them in the first place. I pity the poor cat who gets the duty of "notongue" and has to grab coals in his/her mouth to carry them back to the firepit. If you want a dark AU, that'd be something, a caste of cats who is honored for their sacrifice and courage in that they all have to burn their tongues out for their duty.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 18, 2020 16:20:52 GMT -5
vectoring34thats cool and dark i wonder what the cats would use fire for. the owls use it to smelt metals.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 18, 2020 16:29:36 GMT -5
vectoring34 thats cool and dark i wonder what the cats would use fire for. the owls use it to smelt metals. Melting metal requires a big fire and a lot of work. Continuing with my archaeological comparison, they could probably just use it for cooking meat, which makes it easier to digest. A lot of the uses that humans have for it simply don't apply, as the cats' fur coats mean that the benefits of keeping things warm isn't quite as strong and the fact that they hunt such small animals means that setting fires to drive big game is worthless. Using it for war is troublesome too, because fire doesn't discriminate and it could easily blow back into their own camp because of how close everyone lives. So fire's usefulness would be mostly culinary and cultural. Perhaps they could also use it to flush out larger animals by threat of fire if need be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2020 17:18:17 GMT -5
Like others have said I have a hard time imagining them doing such complex procedures on four legs. The owls have an advantage because they are bipedal and very advanced, almost to the human level.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 19, 2020 19:00:18 GMT -5
I think if you add in too much industry, you may as well make them human and have a medieval fantasy series of your own.
I could definitely get behind reading though. And it's not even outside of canon-- in The Forgotten Warrior, Hollyleaf draws a map in the dirt in the ThunderClan camp, and Dovewing (or someone else, but I think it's Dovewing) suggests scratching symbols on the walls of the tunnels so that TC cats who knew the symbols could navigate the tunnels despite never having been in them, but WindClan cats couldn't.
Honestly, from there it's only a few generations before you have primitive writing. They wouldn't have books by any means, but simple records (like Jay's stick or the Memorial Branch) would be very easy.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 19, 2020 19:13:15 GMT -5
I think if you add in too much industry, you may as well make them human and have a medieval fantasy series of your own. I could definitely get behind reading though. And it's not even outside of canon-- in The Forgotten Warrior, Hollyleaf draws a map in the dirt in the ThunderClan camp, and Dovewing (or someone else, but I think it's Dovewing) suggests scratching symbols on the walls of the tunnels so that TC cats who knew the symbols could navigate the tunnels despite never having been in them, but WindClan cats couldn't. Honestly, from there it's only a few generations before you have primitive writing. They wouldn't have books by any means, but simple records (like Jay's stick or the Memorial Branch) would be very easy. It's a far stretch from that to writing. Humans painted on cave walls for thousands of years before coming up with writing, and some groups simply never did. The Australian Aboriginals, for instance, they painted images for tens of thousands of years yet writing never came up in their culture.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 19, 2020 19:21:43 GMT -5
I think if you add in too much industry, you may as well make them human and have a medieval fantasy series of your own. I could definitely get behind reading though. And it's not even outside of canon-- in The Forgotten Warrior, Hollyleaf draws a map in the dirt in the ThunderClan camp, and Dovewing (or someone else, but I think it's Dovewing) suggests scratching symbols on the walls of the tunnels so that TC cats who knew the symbols could navigate the tunnels despite never having been in them, but WindClan cats couldn't. Honestly, from there it's only a few generations before you have primitive writing. They wouldn't have books by any means, but simple records (like Jay's stick or the Memorial Branch) would be very easy. It's a far stretch from that to writing. Humans painted on cave walls for thousands of years before coming up with writing, and some groups simply never did. The Australian Aboriginals, for instance, they painted images for tens of thousands of years yet writing never came up in their culture. I said primitive writing. And because I'm not an archaeologist or historian who is pedantic about specific definitions, I didn't mean that as in literal letters forming a language representing spoken sounds. I even said "no books by any means". I mean a series of symbols representing ideas, which is absolutely a form of reading and writing. And no, it's not a far stretch from drawing symbols on cave walls with the intent of communicating navigation to simple records. Especially since we already have simple records in the series, which I mentioned in my post. Doubly so because we're speaking about a fantasy series where modern humans exist, so needing the "realism" of thousands of years worth of cave paintings before writing could be used is silly.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 19, 2020 19:36:30 GMT -5
It's a far stretch from that to writing. Humans painted on cave walls for thousands of years before coming up with writing, and some groups simply never did. The Australian Aboriginals, for instance, they painted images for tens of thousands of years yet writing never came up in their culture. I said primitive writing. And because I'm not an archaeologist or historian who is pedantic about specific definitions, I didn't mean that as in literal letters forming a language representing spoken sounds. I even said "no books by any means". I mean a series of symbols representing ideas, which is absolutely a form of reading and writing. And no, it's not a far stretch from drawing symbols on cave walls with the intent of communicating navigation to simple records. Especially since we already have simple records in the series, which I mentioned in my post. Doubly so because we're speaking about a fantasy series where modern humans exist, so needing the "realism" of thousands of years worth of cave paintings before writing could be used is silly. Writing has a very specific definition, it can't just be used for any kind of non-verbal symbolic communication. You would also be incorrect in assuming that symbols on cave walls lead to simple records. There are no simple records in the series. There are some brief maps, but these are all rather improvisational and don't lead to much. There's simply no need for it. Cultural and technological shifts aren't like a video game technology tree where one thing leads to another. You could have a culture decide that just painting walls is enough and there's no need to go any further. For them, the artistic and symbolic value is more important than anything else. The point is that there's a large misunderstanding of how language and culture evolve being said.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 19, 2020 19:47:59 GMT -5
I said primitive writing. And because I'm not an archaeologist or historian who is pedantic about specific definitions, I didn't mean that as in literal letters forming a language representing spoken sounds. I even said "no books by any means". I mean a series of symbols representing ideas, which is absolutely a form of reading and writing. And no, it's not a far stretch from drawing symbols on cave walls with the intent of communicating navigation to simple records. Especially since we already have simple records in the series, which I mentioned in my post. Doubly so because we're speaking about a fantasy series where modern humans exist, so needing the "realism" of thousands of years worth of cave paintings before writing could be used is silly. Writing has a very specific definition, it can't just be used for any kind of non-verbal symbolic communication. You would also be incorrect in assuming that symbols on cave walls lead to simple records. There are no simple records in the series. There are some brief maps, but these are all rather improvisational and don't lead to much. There's simply no need for it. Cultural and technological shifts aren't like a video game technology tree where one thing leads to another. You could have a culture decide that just painting walls is enough and there's no need to go any further. For them, the artistic and symbolic value is more important than anything else. The point is that there's a large misunderstanding of how language and culture evolve being said. Okay, but you're harping on me using incorrect terminology when I'm not a historian and talking about a fantasy series where modern humans exist. You've either misunderstood my point or are choosing to ignore it. I am not making any claims about real life cultures. At no point in this thread have I done that. Yes, you're right it took thousands of years for writing to arise in human cultures in real life, as well as evolution not being definite and structured, but we're not talking about real life. We're talking about cat books for children. Where modern humans using technology exist and are seen by our characters. If you want to have a debate about evolution and culture in the real world, there are several places to do that. I'm sharing why it makes sense for some fictional cats to have simple "non-verbal symbolic communication" (what I would call writing), and how that can lead to simple records (and since I feel like you may call me out for incorrect use of "simple records", let me clarify that I mean very slightly more detailed versions of Jayfeather's stick and the Memorial Branch from Bramblestar's Storm, which do exist in the series). You lecturing me for using incorrect terminology or assuming I'm misunderstanding evolution in real life when that was never my point isn't helpful or relevant. Edit: Listen, man, I really don't want to debate you. I'm just a little peeved that you're arguing against me because my definitions were off when my point is pretty clear, even if my definitions of "writing" and "simple records" are colloquial and not professional. You yourself have said that you could see cats using basic stone tools, so let me have my symbol-drawing, okay?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 20:06:16 GMT -5
Has anyone around here heard of Ratha's Creature? Never actually read the books myself, but it's about a clan of some prehistoric cats domesticating fire and becoming pastoralists. From what I heard, it actually a really well written series.
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 19, 2020 23:15:46 GMT -5
Has anyone around here heard of Ratha's Creature? Never actually read the books myself, but it's about a clan of some prehistoric cats domesticating fire and becoming pastoralists. From what I heard, it actually a really well written series. I've heard of it (I think?) but I don't think I ever read the series. Is it possible to find PDFs of it or nah?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 23:33:55 GMT -5
Has anyone around here heard of Ratha's Creature? Never actually read the books myself, but it's about a clan of some prehistoric cats domesticating fire and becoming pastoralists. From what I heard, it actually a really well written series. I've heard of it (I think?) but I don't think I ever read the series. Is it possible to find PDFs of it or nah? Not sure, never really looked. However, it's easily findable on amazon and other online sellers. If you're not interesting in paying money, there's a chance that your local library might have a copy (assuming after this Covid pandemic wears out).
Interesting enough, there was an actual animated movie adaption made about 30 ago. It's extremely low budget and direct to tv only (was made for some children's anthology series called CBS storybrook). From the clips that I've seen, it's not particularly awful, but I can see why it got so easily buried in the depths of history. You can easily access the footage on YouTube.
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