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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2020 11:06:15 GMT -5
Do you prefer when books start when the POV character is a kit, apprentice, or warrior?
I'm not talking about any specific cat, just POV characters in general.
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Post by cappuccinokitty on Mar 22, 2020 12:50:37 GMT -5
Generally I enjoy apprentice POV's - they usually have a more childlike mindset which is sweet and helps shape their character.
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Post by Fireleap on Mar 22, 2020 13:43:28 GMT -5
I like seeing glimpses into what kithood was like for the protagonist, and seeing how the evolve from that starting point.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Mar 22, 2020 13:57:08 GMT -5
apprentice bc usually when it starts out while the protagonist is a kit the don't really do anything that'll be important later
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 23, 2020 2:45:15 GMT -5
I don't mind kithood PoVs tbh because I feel like it's easier to start from the very beginning and establish things early in than later. I don't want a case of another HJ where the characters the protag is supposed to have a established relationship with regardless of status (*COUGH*Hawkpaw/wing and his twoleg food-loving brother who I can't even remember the name of anymore, or Pebblepaw said to be a brat but in the actual book it's just one-sided from Hawk's POV and she's never shown to be a brat*COUGH*) never really get established through SHOWING it and are just told through us because by that point depending on the story's outline and stuff you don't have enough time to establish them before something serious between them happens that's part of the plot. And thus it makes the actual serious stuff feel empty because by the end there's nothing to go off of. Kithood PoVs start from the very beginning and thus can let you establish relationships and whatnot as early as possible so that it hits harder when the Big Whump comes.
Ofc this isn't always the case, and there are times where the kit stuff takes up pages for stuff that could be better, but that's how my brain works when it comes to these books. Seeing Crookedkit get his broken jaw and have to live with it in his very young years along with his name change on page hurt me more than if they were to say, started it as he was an apprentice already having broke his jaw and gotten the changed name and was mentioned in a note but not able to see the impact in action, it's missing the Big Whump then and you just have his bad mother. Or seeing Bluekit (As much as I hate her and dislike Moonflower) cry over her dead mother on page instead of starting in her apprenticeship and having Moonflower's death be an offhand note that although likely would still heavily affect the protag noticeably, doesn't for me hit as deep in comparison to SEEING that trauma. Getting to SEE that stuff gave it the oomph for me, so they're two instances where kithood PoVs work imo. And again like in HJ's case it'd help me care about the side characters I'm supposed to care for by seeing their bonds or spats, if you started a book like a moon or two earlier so that there's some time for that.
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Post by halogen on Mar 23, 2020 9:20:31 GMT -5
I don't mind kithood PoVs tbh because I feel like it's easier to start from the very beginning and establish things early in than later. I don't want a case of another HJ where the characters the protag is supposed to have a established relationship with regardless of status (*COUGH*Hawkpaw/wing and his twoleg food-loving brother who I can't even remember the name of anymore, or Pebblepaw said to be a brat but in the actual book it's just one-sided from Hawk's POV and she's never shown to be a brat*COUGH*) never really get established through SHOWING it and are just told through us because by that point depending on the story's outline and stuff you don't have enough time to establish them before something serious between them happens that's part of the plot. And thus it makes the actual serious stuff feel empty because by the end there's nothing to go off of. Kithood PoVs start from the very beginning and thus can let you establish relationships and whatnot as early as possible so that it hits harder when the Big Whump comes. Ofc this isn't always the case, and there are times where the kit stuff takes up pages for stuff that could be better, but that's how my brain works when it comes to these books. Seeing Crookedkit get his broken jaw and have to live with it in his very young years along with his name change on page hurt me more than if they were to say, started it as he was an apprentice already having broke his jaw and gotten the changed name and was mentioned in a note but not able to see the impact in action, it's missing the Big Whump then and you just have his bad mother. Or seeing Bluekit (As much as I hate her and dislike Moonflower) cry over her dead mother on page instead of starting in her apprenticeship and having Moonflower's death be an offhand note that although likely would still heavily affect the protag noticeably, doesn't for me hit as deep in comparison to SEEING that trauma. Getting to SEE that stuff gave it the oomph for me, so they're two instances where kithood PoVs work imo. And again like in HJ's case it'd help me care about the side characters I'm supposed to care for by seeing their bonds or spats, if you started a book like a moon or two earlier so that there's some time for that. I disagree with that - it feels cheap to have whole sections of the book that contribute nothing but making you feel bad when someone dies - a good story is about more than just making you feel maximum sadness. If you want to accomplish establishing relationships with characters that later die, you should work that relationship into the time period where the rest of the plot is happening and move the death to later in the story if you have to, rather than having 100+ pages of nothing happening just to make the audience feel traumatized at the end of it. To avoid cases like Hawkwing, the Erins could have just been careful to show and not tell and write Hawkwing's relationships better, it wasn't necessary to start him out as a kit (Pebbleshine is around for enough of the book as is that they could have perfectly developed her character if they wanted, no timelines shifts necessary). I do feel the kithood POV worked for Crookedstar, but with Bluestar all of the pages before Moonflower's death could have certainly been better used for fixing the rushed ending, making her (more plot-relevant) relationship with Oakheart developed, developing Thistleclaw, and giving Bluestar more time to show why she would make a good leader. Especially when that book already has Snowfur in terms of Bluestar losing someone we've actually had time to get attached to and see her relationship with. Making a story a constant stream of emotional trauma with no purpose, and sacrificing parts that could have given it purpose in favor of maximizing said trauma, doesn't make it better.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 23, 2020 10:06:32 GMT -5
I don't mind kithood PoVs tbh because I feel like it's easier to start from the very beginning and establish things early in than later. I don't want a case of another HJ where the characters the protag is supposed to have a established relationship with regardless of status (*COUGH*Hawkpaw/wing and his twoleg food-loving brother who I can't even remember the name of anymore, or Pebblepaw said to be a brat but in the actual book it's just one-sided from Hawk's POV and she's never shown to be a brat*COUGH*) never really get established through SHOWING it and are just told through us because by that point depending on the story's outline and stuff you don't have enough time to establish them before something serious between them happens that's part of the plot. And thus it makes the actual serious stuff feel empty because by the end there's nothing to go off of. Kithood PoVs start from the very beginning and thus can let you establish relationships and whatnot as early as possible so that it hits harder when the Big Whump comes. Ofc this isn't always the case, and there are times where the kit stuff takes up pages for stuff that could be better, but that's how my brain works when it comes to these books. Seeing Crookedkit get his broken jaw and have to live with it in his very young years along with his name change on page hurt me more than if they were to say, started it as he was an apprentice already having broke his jaw and gotten the changed name and was mentioned in a note but not able to see the impact in action, it's missing the Big Whump then and you just have his bad mother. Or seeing Bluekit (As much as I hate her and dislike Moonflower) cry over her dead mother on page instead of starting in her apprenticeship and having Moonflower's death be an offhand note that although likely would still heavily affect the protag noticeably, doesn't for me hit as deep in comparison to SEEING that trauma. Getting to SEE that stuff gave it the oomph for me, so they're two instances where kithood PoVs work imo. And again like in HJ's case it'd help me care about the side characters I'm supposed to care for by seeing their bonds or spats, if you started a book like a moon or two earlier so that there's some time for that. I disagree with that - it feels cheap to have whole sections of the book that contribute nothing but making you feel bad when someone dies - a good story is about more than just making you feel maximum sadness. If you want to accomplish establishing relationships with characters that later die, you should work that relationship into the time period where the rest of the plot is happening and move the death to later in the story if you have to, rather than having 100+ pages of nothing happening just to make the audience feel traumatized at the end of it. To avoid cases like Hawkwing, the Erins could have just been careful to show and not tell and write Hawkwing's relationships better, it wasn't necessary to start him out as a kit (Pebbleshine is around for enough of the book as is that they could have perfectly developed her character if they wanted, no timelines shifts necessary). I do feel the kithood POV worked for Crookedstar, but with Bluestar all of the pages before Moonflower's death could have certainly been better used for fixing the rushed ending, making her (more plot-relevant) relationship with Oakheart developed, developing Thistleclaw, and giving Bluestar more time to show why she would make a good leader. Especially when that book already has Snowfur in terms of Bluestar losing someone we've actually had time to get attached to and see her relationship with. Making a story a constant stream of emotional trauma with no purpose, and sacrificing parts that could have given it purpose in favor of maximizing said trauma, doesn't make it better. I don't want nothing but sadness either but if you expect me to care about some character we barely know before the plot just yeets them out I'm not gonna really give a damn about it or them. It's basically just something that happened in the past by that point. I'm not saying fill the SEs with kithood trauma and just make the reader feel horrible all the way through until it's done, but I'm not expected to care for a character I never got to get to know to begin with because they skipped showing actual bonds and whanot.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 23, 2020 11:33:16 GMT -5
Apprentice
I like to see how a character grows up and changes.
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Post by halogen on Mar 23, 2020 11:35:49 GMT -5
I disagree with that - it feels cheap to have whole sections of the book that contribute nothing but making you feel bad when someone dies - a good story is about more than just making you feel maximum sadness. If you want to accomplish establishing relationships with characters that later die, you should work that relationship into the time period where the rest of the plot is happening and move the death to later in the story if you have to, rather than having 100+ pages of nothing happening just to make the audience feel traumatized at the end of it. To avoid cases like Hawkwing, the Erins could have just been careful to show and not tell and write Hawkwing's relationships better, it wasn't necessary to start him out as a kit (Pebbleshine is around for enough of the book as is that they could have perfectly developed her character if they wanted, no timelines shifts necessary). I do feel the kithood POV worked for Crookedstar, but with Bluestar all of the pages before Moonflower's death could have certainly been better used for fixing the rushed ending, making her (more plot-relevant) relationship with Oakheart developed, developing Thistleclaw, and giving Bluestar more time to show why she would make a good leader. Especially when that book already has Snowfur in terms of Bluestar losing someone we've actually had time to get attached to and see her relationship with. Making a story a constant stream of emotional trauma with no purpose, and sacrificing parts that could have given it purpose in favor of maximizing said trauma, doesn't make it better. I don't want nothing but sadness either but if you expect me to care about some character we barely know before the plot just yeets them out I'm not gonna really give a damn about it or them. It's basically just something that happened in the past by that point. I'm not saying fill the SEs with kithood trauma and just make the reader feel horrible all the way through until it's done, but I'm not expected to care for a character I never got to get to know to begin with because they skipped showing actual bonds and whanot. No, I agree with that, I just think that if a writer is good they can accomplish developed emotional bonds without having to introduce the character as kits. There are plenty of books I read in my life where people who have known each other since childhood are portrayed with close bonds I care about, without spending any time actually showing them in childhood. When the Erins don't do that, it's because of bad writing, not because they didn't introduce the characters as kits.
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