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Post by Hopewish on Mar 14, 2020 16:51:10 GMT -5
Spoilers ahead! but you probably already knew that
I was scrolling through my Instagram feed, and saw that the official Warriors page posted about the Erin Hunter Re-read Challenge, and that this week's book was Moonrise.. and then I remembered how much I couldn't stand the Tribe.. i'm going to be copying-and-pasting a lot of my rant from there onto here and going into further detail, so without further ado..
I want to like the Tribe. I really do, especially considering the fact that they're in so many freaking books (Moonrise, Outcast, Sign of the Moon and Tawnypelt's Clan, to name a few.. why Erins, why.) but I just can't?
First of all, when I first read Moonrise. I remember being so frustrated at the Tribe of Rushing Water for forcing the Clan cats to stay there even though THEY HAD THEIR OWN FAMILIES TO SAVE, but because of everyone complaining and saying "bUT wHaT aBoUT sHaRpToOtH!!!", they were forced to stay there. And then when the time came, and Feathertail died, none of the Tribe cats really even seemed that emotional?
I always thought it was just me being salty that Feathertail died, and since I hadn't read Moonrise in years, I grabbed the book off of my shelf and started to read the battle between Feathertail and Sharptooth again, because I wanted to see if I was even remembering the book right.
Turns out I was right, and I became just as frustrated as the first time I read the book. Feathertail freaking plummets to the ground and is on the verge of her death. No emotion from the Tribe cats. Stormfur and Crowpaw are grieving. Still no signs of grief from the Tribe cats. Feathertail spoke her final words, and now all of the travelling Clan cats are grieving.. and still no signs of any sort of emotion from any of the Tribe cats. So, not even a heartbeat later, barely letting the Clan cats grieve for their dead friend, and without ANY signs of grieving from the Tribe cats, someone freaking yells out "Sharptooth is dead! We are free!"
What. The. Heck.
Sure, Brook later offered her sympathies, and yes, Stoneteller said that Feathertail will always be a honored cat in the Tribe, but it never felt like the other Tribe cats cared that a cat freaking DIED just to save their sorry butts from Sharptooth.
TL;DR: The Tribe cats are a bunch of emotionless, manipulative jerks, and I groan everytime the Clan cats visit them. please tell me i'm not the only one who feels this way
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Post by halogen on Mar 14, 2020 16:57:24 GMT -5
I mean, imagine you spend months and months being slowly hunted down by a monster, watching your friends and family be gruesomely killed, well believing that everyone you know and love will die and your whole way of life be driven extinct, and then you are miraculously saved, and some cat you barely know dies in the process. Wouldn't you be more focused on the miraculous salvation of you and everything you know than the death of one stranger?
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Post by Hopewish on Mar 14, 2020 17:00:29 GMT -5
I mean, imagine you spend months and months being slowly hunted down by a monster, watching your friends and family be gruesomely killed, well believing that everyone you know and love will die and your whole way of life be driven extinct, and then you are miraculously saved, and some cat you barely know dies in the process. Wouldn't you be more focused on the miraculous salvation of you and everything you know than the death of one stranger? .. now that you put it that way, I can see why the Tribe acted the way they did? but I would think I would still try to grieve for the stranger first, and then focus on the miraculous salvation? i'm not sure ouch now I feel stupid
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 17:02:26 GMT -5
It's bad that they didn't grieve for Feathertail, and they were terrible jerks for pretty much forcing them to stay there, but they didn't even know her, unlike her own brother, the cat who was in love with her, her temporary foster siblings, Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt, and she and Squirrelflight spent quite a bit of time together on the journey. Maybe they could have been more sympathetic, instead of just flat out cheering when the Sharptooth was dead, but they had been dealing with him wayyy longer than they've known Feathertail, and he's killed several of their tribe-mates.
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Post by kells on Mar 14, 2020 17:35:26 GMT -5
I mean, imagine you spend months and months being slowly hunted down by a monster, watching your friends and family be gruesomely killed, well believing that everyone you know and love will die and your whole way of life be driven extinct, and then you are miraculously saved, and some cat you barely know dies in the process. Wouldn't you be more focused on the miraculous salvation of you and everything you know than the death of one stranger? While the Tribe can't be at fault for the drastic measures they took to have their silver-cat prophecy fulfilled, they still never really cared much about the loss of the very cat they imprisoned. Feathertail could have run away and let them all die out, wiping away their existence and survival, but she stayed and gave her life for them anyway. And the Tribe out of everyone should know how terrible Stormfur feels losing Feathertail, and yet their heroism is still an afterthought, like the quote just showed. But even here I let them loose on it and forgave them. It still makes sense that they'd pay more attention to their loved ones than a random cat. But then the Tribe goes and exiles both Stormfur and Brook for showing them battle moves that didn't work the first time they tried them? It was something ridiculous and unjust, and made my dislike for them grow to hate. I can't remember if they had done anything else equally crappy, but that alone was some upper-level crappiness. So while they may have treated Stormfur semi-well during his stay, I still don't think they truly cared all that much about Feathertail's death
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 14, 2020 18:40:01 GMT -5
They had ulterior motive to use Stormfur, and lied to them just to get closer to him, forcing them to stay there, separated them and pushed out the other clan cat. Not to mention they had exiled their own cats and even wanted them killed for returning. Then show not a single ounce of gratitude or emotion over the cat that literally sacrificed herself to save them all. Honestly, the tribe was awful, the cult behavior was off-putting, and don't get me started on the Stolkholm syndrome of Stormfur and Brook.
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Post by cappuccinokitty on Mar 15, 2020 4:23:21 GMT -5
Imma quickly add to the rant bc I loathe the tribe. - Literally every Tribe book results in a journey (which takes up at least half of the book) and those are even more unbearable than the Tribe itself. -Secondly, they’re incapable of doing anything by themselves. Sometimes it feels like they’re just a walking plot device that makes the clans look 20x better. TC literally has to teach them their culture instead (setting borders, attack/defence moves etc.) to solve their rogue issue - and ofc, TC helps the Tribe win. It would be a great if they actually helped The Clans for a change, just to prove that they’re not completely incompetent. - They’re just painfully boring. It was initially a nice concept, but they were executed so badly
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Post by cyanfeather on Mar 15, 2020 5:49:15 GMT -5
(yeah! first post - been years since i talked about warriors!)
isn't tawnypelt's book a really recent one? why is the tribe will be used if they're not relevant anymore? have they or at least stoneteller got something to do that imposter plot in the 6th arc? i don't know much about the recent book...
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 15, 2020 11:56:57 GMT -5
cyanfeatherThey were likely used to show off Shadowsight's abilities, as well as give Tawnypelt a chance to reflect because she was ENRAGED at her clan in that book, so she really did need some time away (understandably so)
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 15, 2020 15:44:23 GMT -5
The Tribe is awful, but the reasons listed in the OP are something that's not really a fair assessment. Of course they'd be happy about being freed. And it's not like we have much of their perspective either, so maybe they are upset at it.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 15, 2020 20:22:17 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope.
I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated.
I will argue about this all day.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 15, 2020 20:27:00 GMT -5
I can understand if readers dislike the Tribe because of how they were written, stereotyped (If you want to know why I say that just ask), and passive aggressively forced to assimilate out of their customs to the Clan's customs (Ask about that too if you want, but if you're just hating them just to hate them without a good reason, then your opinion on them other than as a group of poorly written indigenous characters is wack.
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Post by jayfeather1234 on Mar 18, 2020 19:56:09 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. While I am a middle class white American, I think that I am pretty sure that I understand how you feel about how the tribe is portrayed in Warriors. My understanding is due to how I believe that the erins should have spent a little more time in the books that they appear in developing them more and clearly providing insight on how the tribe sees everything differently than the clans. They could have done this in a number of ways, including adding a Viewpoint character from the tribe. I think that they did this well in the prologue. In Outcast, when the clans were trying to throw their way of life on the tribe, I didn’t think that the clans needed to do away with the tribe’s way of life. Warriors is a very good example of what happens when authors don’t develop their characters cultures. I am not sure if you heard of any of these or not, but the following is an example of different books that portray different cultures and groups well: A Song Of Ice And Fire- This series is a great example as there are many different groups and there is no good vs evil conflict. Even the kingdom of the dark lord, Tywin Lannister, is developed. The book’s plot revolves around different noble houses trying to gain control over one continent while ignoring the overarching cataclysmic threat. The different cultures in it are Dorne, The Free Folk, The Dothraki, The Unsullied, Braavos, The North, The Ironborn, and The Others. At one point, the author wished that he wrote some chapters from a Dothraki viewpoint. The series was adapted into HBO’s Game Of Thrones. The Lord of The Rings- While this series may seem like a stereotypical fantasy series, there are some indigenous groups, specifically one, that appear and in some cases aid the main good characters. Some examples include how no evil character started off as evil. This is shown in how Morgoth started off with a desire to create his own beings, Sauron being obsessed with order and perfection before being corrupted by Morgoth, Saruman, Gollum, Isildur, Boromir, Frodo, and Sam being influenced by The One Ring. The indigenous group I mentioned before are the Druedain who live between Rohan and Gondor. In the third book, Gondor is besieged by Mordor and Sauron sends orcs to prevent Rohan from going to Gondor’s aid. To get around the orcs, Rohan goes through the Druedain Forest to get to Gondor. They get lost and meet the natives. Rohan and the Druedain make a deal in which the Druedain would show them the quickest way to Gondor if they are no longer hunted by the riders of Rohan. In addition to this, in a later chapter, Aragorn, the new king of Gondor, grants them complete ownership of the Druedain Forest to the point where no one is allowed to enter without their leave. Aragorn does the same with the Ents of Fangorn Forest and the Hobbits of The Shire. I just simply find the topic of the portrayal of different groups interesting.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 18, 2020 21:26:30 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. Unfortunately, all non-Clan are treated like they don't know what they're doing and need to be saved - rogues, kittypets, the Tribe, the Sisters. It's what makes the clans pretty insufferable at times because they believe THEIR way is the ONLY way
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 18, 2020 22:05:30 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. I agree, I have indigenous blood myself, and I was excited when I first read about the tribe, but slowly began to dislike the way they were presented and written. Their behavior was very manipulative and cult like, and the way they were represented left a bad taste in my mouth.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 18, 2020 22:36:41 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. I agree, I have indigenous blood myself, and I was excited when I first read about the tribe, but slowly began to dislike the way they were presented and written. Their behavior was very manipulative and cult like, and the way they were represented left a bad taste in my mouth. I grew up reading Warriors, and when the Tribe was introduced I was so happy that a group of indigenous cats were introduced, but as I read through Moonrise, I couldn't stand the Tonto speak (although it isn't quite obvious to some people), the stereotypical names, and some of the wording they use like caught prey, etc. It's just embarrassing and I prefer if the Tribe was forgotten altogether because every single time a book includes the Tribe, they're usually helpless in some kind of situation and again the whole 'white savior' to the rescue idea comes in. I don't think these cats will ever see justice from the Erin's or editor's.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Mar 18, 2020 22:39:23 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. Unfortunately, all non-Clan are treated like they don't know what they're doing and need to be saved - rogues, kittypets, the Tribe, the Sisters. It's what makes the clans pretty insufferable at times because they believe THEIR way is the ONLY way Agreed. It gets bothersome really quick. Sometimes I have to put down the book for a while before continuing. I can't count how many times I rolled my eyes when it comes to the Clans having to 'save' or 'help' a group of cats.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 18, 2020 23:00:30 GMT -5
Unfortunately, all non-Clan are treated like they don't know what they're doing and need to be saved - rogues, kittypets, the Tribe, the Sisters. It's what makes the clans pretty insufferable at times because they believe THEIR way is the ONLY way Agreed. It gets bothersome really quick. Sometimes I have to put down the book for a while before continuing. I can't count how many times I rolled my eyes when it comes to the Clans having to 'save' or 'help' a group of cats. I'm happy when there are cats that realize clan life isn't all that great. Like, lbr, I would rather be a kittypet and be fed and doted on than constantly fighting/being threatened by predators/disease. I wish more of the non-Clan cats called them out.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 19, 2020 23:36:09 GMT -5
As an indigenous person, I'm about to pop a cap on this real quick. first of all, I despise how the Tribe is portrayed in the series. In fact, I hate how non-natives usually do introduce indigenous characters. If we're not seen as the noble savage killing innocent characters, it's the 'Woe is me' we're dying from war, famine, disease, we can't do anything without the 'white savior' trope. I get it, some non-natives love indigenous people or would love to create indigenous characters. If it were done correctly, I wouldn't give a **** and would enjoy it. But when they're set up to be like this, that's when I get heated. I will argue about this all day. Unfortunately, all non-Clan are treated like they don't know what they're doing and need to be saved - rogues, kittypets, the Tribe, the Sisters. It's what makes the clans pretty insufferable at times because they believe THEIR way is the ONLY way The problem isn't so much that the Clans believe that but that they are RIGHT due to the way it is written. If it was written such that the Tribe wasn't entirely helpless without the clans, then their view point would indeed be wrong, but that's not the case. They're made into feeble invalids who require the clans to survive. With the Sisters though, it's the opposite problem. The writers clearly intended for the clans to be in the wrong here by making the Sisters more independent and having Squirrelflight be hilariously leaned in their favor, but the problem is that they accidentally made the Sisters far too morally nasty in their independence. Being a bunch of bullying kidnappers is a really bad look. Nonetheless, the authorial intent is for the clans to be in the wrong for their meddling with the Sisters.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Mar 20, 2020 17:30:03 GMT -5
Unfortunately, all non-Clan are treated like they don't know what they're doing and need to be saved - rogues, kittypets, the Tribe, the Sisters. It's what makes the clans pretty insufferable at times because they believe THEIR way is the ONLY way The problem isn't so much that the Clans believe that but that they are RIGHT due to the way it is written. If it was written such that the Tribe wasn't entirely helpless without the clans, then their view point would indeed be wrong, but that's not the case. They're made into feeble invalids who require the clans to survive. With the Sisters though, it's the opposite problem. The writers clearly intended for the clans to be in the wrong here by making the Sisters more independent and having Squirrelflight be hilariously leaned in their favor, but the problem is that they accidentally made the Sisters far too morally nasty in their independence. Being a bunch of bullying kidnappers is a really bad look. Nonetheless, the authorial intent is for the clans to be in the wrong for their meddling with the Sisters. Exactly
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