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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 23:12:27 GMT -5
This guy had to deal with having Foxheart as a mentor, Brokenstar as an apprentice, and a sickness that confined him to the elder's den at a very early age. Not only that, but StarClan felt that murderers had a more right to be the leader of ShadowClan than he did.
Nightstar, while he wasn't perfect, was one of the BEST ShadowClan cats hands down IMO.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 11, 2020 0:20:57 GMT -5
It really is a shame he didn't become a leader with 9 lives. I know without a doubt he probably could have held them together much better than the other options we got later on. On top of that, he was well developed and morally a good cat in general, he was the literally leader ShadowClan deserved, but like StarClan bias won over him I guess??
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 11, 2020 0:42:10 GMT -5
I liked him in Yellowfang's Secret. The guy stepped up and managed to keep ShadowClan together after they drove out Brokenstar and I think did a pretty decent job at it. If he got nine lives I'm sure he probably would have been one of the best leaders ShadowClan ever received. He couldn't become a leader because Brokenstar was alive?? Like, StarClan refused to do that? Because Brokenstar was alive, even though his own Clan forced him out because he was a terrible leader?? It's really abysmal they just denied him that, honestly.
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Post by aether on Mar 11, 2020 5:34:44 GMT -5
Question, Nightstar never received his 9 lives. He was never given his leader name.
So why is he still called Nightstar in StarClan? O.o I know that the living cats called him that, but StarClan never granted him the name.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Mar 11, 2020 5:43:57 GMT -5
See, but didn't Sunstar BP only receive 8 lives, because Pinestar was still alive?
I don't remember if Brokenstar lost any lives at this point, but if he did, I do not understand why couldn't they just do that with Nightstar.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 8:07:36 GMT -5
I've seen theories, that the reason Nightstar didn't get nine lives, is because Blackstar was still alive, and Blackstar was the "rightful" leader of ShadowClan. Though, it doesn't explain why Tigerclaw was able to get nine lives. Either way, it's annoying that those three murderers, two of which cheated their ways to the top, got StarClan approved, but a nice innocent guy like Nightstar didn't.
Also, I'm not sure why he's called Nightstar.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 11, 2020 10:02:27 GMT -5
Nightstar and Rowanstar are my favorite Shadowclan leaders. They genuinely deserved so much better. Nightstar would have done great had he been given his 9 lives. Goddamn Tigerstars taking leadership they don’t deserve smh.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 10:54:49 GMT -5
Nightstar and Rowanstar are my favorite Shadowclan leaders. They genuinely deserved so much better. Nightstar would have done great had he been given his 9 lives. Goddamn Tigerstars taking leadership they don’t deserve smh. Right? I'm not as mad about Tigerheartstar, even though I don't think he deserved to be leader. Though, he was the next rightful leader, since Rowanstar chose him as his deputy...but I don't know why he chose him, because he's his son? Tigerheart betrayed ShadowClan by not only training in the DF, but taking a mate from another clan as well. I know Dovewing is now in ShadowClan, but she wasn't at the time, and didn't those two sneaking around with each other nearly cause a battle between ShadowClan and ThunderClan, because they kept smelling ShadowClan scent on ThunderClan territory? I do thing he has been a good leader so far...same as Harestar from WindClan, who I also think got his position unfairly. I don't think either of them deserved it, but I'm glad they're leaders now.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Mar 11, 2020 11:03:54 GMT -5
See, but didn't Sunstar BP only receive 8 lives, because Pinestar was still alive? I don't remember if Brokenstar lost any lives at this point, but if he did, I do not understand why couldn't they just do that with Nightstar. Yeah, in Brokenstar's case, he only had one life at the time that Nightstar became leader. Yellowfang told this to Firestar when she also admitted Brokenstar was her son...so it makes no sense why Nightstar wasn't given 8 lives rather than the full 9. I think Nightstar deserved to be a proper ShadowClan leader. He did participate in battles (attacking ThunderClan with WindClan), but to be completely honest, I don't blame him. It was especially more understandable now that we know why he wanted Brokenstar to die. The only battle I won't give him any leeway for is attacking WindClan alongside RiverClan in Fire and Ice, considering it was his Clan who slaughtered WindClan cats and drove them from the moorlands, even if they were under Brokenstar's orders. Despite this, I'm forever annoyed that StarClan took him too early, and how badly they treated Rowanstar, too. StarClan seems to hate ShadowClan, because whenever they finally get good leaders in power, they inevitably screw them over, which always leads to more death for the other Clans when a bad cat inevitably uses the opportunity to seize power in ShadowClan's awful leadership.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Mar 11, 2020 11:04:39 GMT -5
Him not getting the nine lives wasn't because starclan thought brokenstar was the true leader
it was because the erins wanted tigerstar for the sake of drama
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 11:16:20 GMT -5
Him not getting the nine lives wasn't because starclan thought brokenstar was the true leader it was because the erins wanted tigerstar for the sake of drama That makes sense...it's really dumb though...StarClan is SO stupid, like, they saw everything Tigerclaw did, and they STILL approved him for leader? I know he was the strong cat they needed, to help them get back on their feet, but really? NO ONE else could have done it? What about Flintfang? He was a strong and compassionate warrior, or Deerfoot? He had the courage to speak out against Tigerclaw, and stand up for what he thought was right. Not to mention, Tigerclaw cheated, one of his cronies faked an omen so he could become leader. Does StarClan not know or care what is happening?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 11:22:20 GMT -5
See, but didn't Sunstar BP only receive 8 lives, because Pinestar was still alive? I don't remember if Brokenstar lost any lives at this point, but if he did, I do not understand why couldn't they just do that with Nightstar. Yeah, in Brokenstar's case, he only had one life at the time that Nightstar became leader. Yellowfang told this to Firestar when she also admitted Brokenstar was her son...so it makes no sense why Nightstar wasn't given 8 lives rather than the full 9. I think Nightstar deserved to be a proper ShadowClan leader. He did participate in battles (attacking ThunderClan with WindClan), but to be completely honest, I don't blame him. It was especially more understandable now that we know why he wanted Brokenstar to die. The only battle I won't give him any leeway for is attacking WindClan alongside RiverClan in Fire and Ice, considering it was his Clan who slaughtered WindClan cats and drove them from the moorlands, even if they were under Brokenstar's orders. Despite this, I'm forever annoyed that StarClan took him too early, and how badly they treated Rowanstar, too. StarClan seems to hate ShadowClan, because whenever they finally get good leaders in power, they inevitably screw them over, which always leads to more death for the other Clans when a bad cat inevitably uses the opportunity to seize power in ShadowClan's awful leadership. Right? Not to mention what happens to all their medicine cats, especially the ones who actually WANTED to be medicine cats.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 11, 2020 11:41:24 GMT -5
Nightstar attacking Windclan was a real jerk move, other than that, I guess his leadership was good. Honestly that whole battle was very bizarre
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 11:53:14 GMT -5
Nightstar attacking Windclan was a real jerk move, other than that, I guess his leadership was good. Honestly that whole battle was very bizarre When did that happen? I don't remember. I feel so bad for WindClan, they seemed to be the punching bag in the old forest, always getting attacked by everyone.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 11, 2020 12:11:13 GMT -5
Nightstar attacking Windclan was a real jerk move, other than that, I guess his leadership was good. Honestly that whole battle was very bizarre When did that happen? I don't remember. I feel so bad for WindClan, they seemed to be the punching bag in the old forest, always getting attacked by everyone. The end of the second book. Crookedstar and Nightstar randomly decided to attack Windclan to drive them out AGAIN because...there's no real good reason, to be honest. Nightstar implies something about how Shadowclan needs more food because of new kits and Crookedstar makes some vague overtures about how his clan is hungry, but in the end it seemed mostly down to the fact that since both Shadowclan and Riverclan reaped huge benefits from Windclan being gone, they would prefer it stay that way.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 13:51:38 GMT -5
Question, Nightstar never received his 9 lives. He was never given his leader name. So why is he still called Nightstar in StarClan? O.o I know that the living cats called him that, but StarClan never granted him the name. I imagine he kept the name because his CLAN acknowledged him as the leader and were super supportive of him. Which makes it worse that Starclan screwed him over.
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Post by halogen on Mar 11, 2020 13:52:25 GMT -5
I feel like Crookedstar deserves more blame than Nightstar for it - Nightstar was dealing with a Clan that had taken said territory themselves, at the cost of the lives of their kits, they would have never accepted Nightstar just giving back the territory for free even if they were happy to have Brokenstar gone, given what we know about how ShadowClan often turns against any leader they see as weak (like with Rowanstar). It doesn't justify it and Nightstar's actions were still wrong, but it does seem like a rather realistic situation of how people (or cats) can be unwilling to make reparations for an unjust war even when they are no longer in the business of conquering anymore. Nightstar seemed well aware of his precarious situation, which both meant he couldn't let Brokenstar and his followers off the hook and he couldn't seem like he was devaluing his Clan's sacrifices, however unnecessary and cruel they really are. And he was right about Brokenstar's followers, ShadowClan really did accept them back with open arms as soon as Nightstar was dead and couldn't object. Crookedstar doesn't have any such excuse (though his Clan really did end up starving come new leaf so that does give him somewhat of a point, he couldn't have predicted the flooding would be that severe).
Also, I do kind of see StarClan's point about denying Nightstar his lives - no matter how justified he was in driving Brokenstar out, the nine lives are there for a reason, and that reason is so you don't have constant civil war and cats trying to kill each other to get the leadership position. Allowing cats to just exile their old leaders and still get nine lives would be a horrible precedent to set. Then again, Brokenstar was only able to be exiled because most of his own Clan hated him and preferred Nightstar, it's not like giving him nine lives would allow anyone to just take over when the leader wasn't a hated tyrant. And, yeah, the real in-story reason is that the Erins wanted ShadowClan to always be the villain Clan so they had to get the main villain as leader of ShadowClan even if it didn't make sense. Not to mention the whole fake omen thing that StarClan should have done something about...
I think it would have been much more interesting if they keep the whole "one life" thing for Nightstar but gave him a bigger role in the books, where he's trying to keep his Clan together despite being secretly disapproved of by StarClan, rather than just use him as a placeholder for Tigerstar when his character could have been so much more than that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:18:28 GMT -5
vectoring34Ohh thanks, I just remember Crookedstar and Nightstar wanting to hunt on WindClan's land, but I thought it was before WindClan came back.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Mar 11, 2020 22:10:16 GMT -5
Keep in mind that this was the first instance of this happening, where a cat becomes leader while the previous leader is still alive. If anything, Sunstar's leadership is the contradictory one.
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Post by Jayie on Mar 12, 2020 9:12:31 GMT -5
See, but didn't Sunstar BP only receive 8 lives, because Pinestar was still alive? I don't remember if Brokenstar lost any lives at this point, but if he did, I do not understand why couldn't they just do that with Nightstar. Yeah, in Brokenstar's case, he only had one life at the time that Nightstar became leader. Yellowfang told this to Firestar when she also admitted Brokenstar was her son...so it makes no sense why Nightstar wasn't given 8 lives rather than the full 9. I think Nightstar deserved to be a proper ShadowClan leader. He did participate in battles (attacking ThunderClan with WindClan), but to be completely honest, I don't blame him. It was especially more understandable now that we know why he wanted Brokenstar to die. The only battle I won't give him any leeway for is attacking WindClan alongside RiverClan in Fire and Ice, considering it was his Clan who slaughtered WindClan cats and drove them from the moorlands, even if they were under Brokenstar's orders. Despite this, I'm forever annoyed that StarClan took him too early, and how badly they treated Rowanstar, too. StarClan seems to hate ShadowClan, because whenever they finally get good leaders in power, they inevitably screw them over, which always leads to more death for the other Clans when a bad cat inevitably uses the opportunity to seize power in ShadowClan's awful leadership. No, he still had all nine lives, which is mentioned in Into the Wild. He didn’t get whittled down to one life until Tigerclaw’s attempt on Bluestar’s life much later.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
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Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 12, 2020 9:52:36 GMT -5
While we know the out-of-canon reason, the in-canon reason could be that StarClan didn't really see Brokenstar as leader still, but Tigerclaw had to become leader to fulfill his destiny and also repair ShadowClan. He did put some work in but unfortunately didn't rebuild it properly. If Tigerstar didn't become leader, then he would remain a constant threat. I dunno, just a little theory.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Mar 12, 2020 10:31:24 GMT -5
Yeah, in Brokenstar's case, he only had one life at the time that Nightstar became leader. Yellowfang told this to Firestar when she also admitted Brokenstar was her son...so it makes no sense why Nightstar wasn't given 8 lives rather than the full 9. I think Nightstar deserved to be a proper ShadowClan leader. He did participate in battles (attacking ThunderClan with WindClan), but to be completely honest, I don't blame him. It was especially more understandable now that we know why he wanted Brokenstar to die. The only battle I won't give him any leeway for is attacking WindClan alongside RiverClan in Fire and Ice, considering it was his Clan who slaughtered WindClan cats and drove them from the moorlands, even if they were under Brokenstar's orders. Despite this, I'm forever annoyed that StarClan took him too early, and how badly they treated Rowanstar, too. StarClan seems to hate ShadowClan, because whenever they finally get good leaders in power, they inevitably screw them over, which always leads to more death for the other Clans when a bad cat inevitably uses the opportunity to seize power in ShadowClan's awful leadership. No, he still had all nine lives, which is mentioned in Into the Wild. He didn’t get whittled down to one life until Tigerclaw’s attempt on Bluestar’s life much later. Huh. That's interesting, because I swear I have this false memory of reading her say that it was his last life, but she couldn't kill him. I got confused and looked it up, and I think you're right, though I'm still puzzled how he lost that many. The dude really was just throwing himself at any and everything, with no care that he was losing lives lol Here's the passage in Fire and Ice. The books didn't specify beyond this (beyond the 'I've got nine lives, pipsqueak' or whatever to Firestar at the end of the first book), since I also looked up the Forest of Secrets passages before he's killed via the deathberries. I always thought he was lying at the end of Into the Wild to sound all big and bad, 'cause he's an arrogant, lying ass ;p and of course no leader wants to admit to enemies how many lives they've lost, since it makes them sound vulnerable. At least two of his lives were taken by Yellowfang herself, then there's the one he lost during the battle against ThunderClan. Him losing six lives between the end of Into the Wild and then him dying at the end of Forest of Secrets is actually kinda impressive haha
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Post by halogen on Mar 12, 2020 11:53:42 GMT -5
No, he still had all nine lives, which is mentioned in Into the Wild. He didn’t get whittled down to one life until Tigerclaw’s attempt on Bluestar’s life much later. Huh. That's interesting, because I swear I have this false memory of reading her say that it was his last life, but she couldn't kill him. I got confused and looked it up, and I think you're right, though I'm still puzzled how he lost that many. The dude really was just throwing himself at any and everything, with no care that he was losing lives lol Here's the passage in Fire and Ice. The books didn't specify beyond this (beyond the 'I've got nine lives, pipsqueak' or whatever to Firestar at the end of the first book), since I also looked up the Forest of Secrets passages before he's killed via the deathberries. I always thought he was lying at the end of Into the Wild to sound all big and bad, 'cause he's an arrogant, lying ass ;p and of course no leader wants to admit to enemies how many lives they've lost, since it makes them sound vulnerable. At least two of his lives were taken by Yellowfang herself, then there's the one he lost during the battle against ThunderClan. Him losing six lives between the end of Into the Wild and then him dying at the end of Forest of Secrets is actually kinda impressive haha Wasn't Brokenstar a very new leader at the beginning of Into The Wild? Raggedstar had just died recently. Any way you slice it he lost his lives very quickly.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2020 13:35:25 GMT -5
I like to imagine that when he tried to mess with Scourge in the Twolegplace, he got himself killed a few times before he finally decided to leave them alone. It's the only way I can imagine this guy dies so many times between books.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Mar 12, 2020 13:58:39 GMT -5
Huh. That's interesting, because I swear I have this false memory of reading her say that it was his last life, but she couldn't kill him. I got confused and looked it up, and I think you're right, though I'm still puzzled how he lost that many. The dude really was just throwing himself at any and everything, with no care that he was losing lives lol Here's the passage in Fire and Ice. The books didn't specify beyond this (beyond the 'I've got nine lives, pipsqueak' or whatever to Firestar at the end of the first book), since I also looked up the Forest of Secrets passages before he's killed via the deathberries. I always thought he was lying at the end of Into the Wild to sound all big and bad, 'cause he's an arrogant, lying ass ;p and of course no leader wants to admit to enemies how many lives they've lost, since it makes them sound vulnerable. At least two of his lives were taken by Yellowfang herself, then there's the one he lost during the battle against ThunderClan. Him losing six lives between the end of Into the Wild and then him dying at the end of Forest of Secrets is actually kinda impressive haha Wasn't Brokenstar a very new leader at the beginning of Into The Wild? Raggedstar had just died recently. Any way you slice it he lost his lives very quickly. Yeah, Graystripe mentioned it to Firestar and Ravenpaw when they were talking about the leaders at their first Gathering in Into the Wild. Either way, like you said, he lost them all in a really short amount of time. According to the warriors timeline here, it took a little over a year for him to lose literally all nine lives. He became leader around leaf-fall, and sometime near the end of the next year's leaf-bare/in the very beginning of newleaf, he was dead. Oof...talk about an unintentional overachiever!
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#add8e6
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Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 12, 2020 15:03:20 GMT -5
Aside from attacking WindClan and not wanting them back, I feel bad for Nightstar. I hate that he was just there only to die so that Tigerclaw can take over.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 16:03:59 GMT -5
Aside from attacking WindClan and not wanting them back, I feel bad for Nightstar. I hate that he was just there only to die so that Tigerclaw can take over. Right? Why do good guys always get messed over to have more Tigerdrama? Tigerheart did NOT need to be the leader of ShadowClan...did they just do that so there could be another Tigerstar? Crowfrost would have been great..Rowanstar had the potential to be great, if he was given half a chance. I love Tigerheart, but ughhhhhhh
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#add8e6
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 12, 2020 16:12:48 GMT -5
Aside from attacking WindClan and not wanting them back, I feel bad for Nightstar. I hate that he was just there only to die so that Tigerclaw can take over. Right? Why do good guys always get messed over to have more Tigerdrama? Tigerheart did NOT need to be the leader of ShadowClan...did they just do that so there could be another Tigerstar? Crowfrost would have been great..Rowanstar had the potential to be great, if he was given half a chance. I love Tigerheart, but ughhhhhhh We did not need another Tigerstar. lol Rowanstar would have been great if he handled it better, as would Crowfrost.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 16:21:15 GMT -5
Right? Why do good guys always get messed over to have more Tigerdrama? Tigerheart did NOT need to be the leader of ShadowClan...did they just do that so there could be another Tigerstar? Crowfrost would have been great..Rowanstar had the potential to be great, if he was given half a chance. I love Tigerheart, but ughhhhhhh We did not need another Tigerstar. lol Rowanstar would have been great if he handled it better, as would Crowfrost. I knowww, neither of the Tigerstars deserved to be leader. Tigerheartstar should have never been deputy, I don't think anyone who betrays their clan for a cat in another clan should have have a position of power. I know it's the unpopular opinion on here, but it's how I feel. And Tigerclawstar should have never been leader, because he's a murderer and he CHEATED to get the position.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 12, 2020 16:23:45 GMT -5
We did not need another Tigerstar. lol Rowanstar would have been great if he handled it better, as would Crowfrost. I knowww, neither of the Tigerstars deserved to be leader. Tigerheartstar should have never been deputy, I don't think anyone who betrays their clan for a cat in another clan should have have a position of power. I know it's the unpopular opinion on here, but it's how I feel. And Tigerclawstar should have never been leader, because he's a murderer and he CHEATED to get the position. Agreed.
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