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Post by Mistybreeze on Feb 5, 2020 3:10:38 GMT -5
In the recent thread on Leopardstar, I saw an all too common problem with a lot the arguments. No one (at least that I saw) looked at the situation from her perspective. Guys, you gotta consider every perspective when judging a character's actions. It's not only the proper way to debate, but it makes your arguments stronger too.
Anyways, a clear explanation emerges when you consider Leopard's position. The land simply wasn't worth the potential fight. It was revealed in CP that RiverClan exclusively fishes unless forced to hunt during harsh leafbares where the river freezes too thick. As this didn't happen every leafbare, they could go years without actually hunting the land. So when Tiger approached her about giving ShadowClan access to their land, it was a no brainer.
Now say she refuses and Tiger wages war. What are her options? RiverClan could fight alone, and possibly end up losing. Tiger certainly would have made an example of them in that case. Option two is ask the other Clans for help. WindClan would likely be harboring a grudge and say no. Plus they may not have been able to help anyways. As for ThunderClan, we know that they would help because we have Fire's POV. But from Leopard's perspective, TC would have been even less likely to help. They've had nothing but an antagonistic relationship for years. Given how prideful she was, Leopard wouldn't have asked for help anyways.
Leopardstar made the very wise decision to grant access to land to land RC rarely uses to avoid bloodshed. This would also explain why Crookedstar did the same with Brokenstar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 8:43:30 GMT -5
Those are good points, but why would WindClan hold a grudge against RiverClan? Other than the Reedfeather situation, I don't know of a time when RiverClan and WindClan were at odds.
With ShadowClan however...
WindClan and ShadowClan seemed to ALWAYS be in fights with each other, ShadowClan drove WindClan from their home, if WindClan has a grudge against anyone, it's ShadowClan, and I think they would be more than happy to take those sneaky stinkers down.
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Post by Jayie on Feb 5, 2020 8:53:53 GMT -5
She didn’t just give them access to her land - she handed over total control of her Clan, to the point that she let her own deputy be executed in front of her, and allowed innocent apprentices ordered to be executed, and didn’t lift a claw to defend them. Surely that should’ve been worth going to another Clan for help, or fighting back, or even fleeing?
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Post by halogen on Feb 5, 2020 14:11:00 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with her being willing to cede to Tigerstar at first, Tigerstar's proposition actually seemed reasonable and she didn't know how bad Tigerstar was like the readers did. In fact it's actually nice that she was willing to see beyond the Clans' conservatism. The problem is how she didn't take it back once Tigerstar started taking over her Clan and persecuting the half-Clan cats.
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Post by stormfall on Feb 5, 2020 14:39:41 GMT -5
Riverclan could probably have gotten Windclan help in the battle to come if Leopardstar told Tigerstar no. The decision to merge their clans came before Windclan was beaten in battle, and seeing that Windclan hates ShadowClan, Riverclan could have easily asked for help. Even if Windclan hates both clans, it pretty obvious they hate ShadowClan much more.
At the same time, could ShadowClan really have beaten Riverclan in a battle at that point in time? In the Darkest Hour the two clans are roughly the same size, and with Riverclan on the defense in their own camp across the river, it seems to me like ShadowClan would have had a much harder time defeating Riverclan than we think.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 5, 2020 17:41:42 GMT -5
This is a strawman argument. No one is upset at Leopardstar for ceding land(even her own predecessor did this). If she had stopped there, I don't think anyone would care. The problem is that she didn't stop there. She let her clan's camp become a filthy dump where the Shadowclan cats merely live off the backs of Riverclan without contributing, allowed the construction of the bonehill, and then became Tigerstar's puppet in ordering her deputy to murder apprentices and then watching her deputy get murdered without raising even a peep of protest. THAT is what people take issue with and call her a coward for. Even when all of his crimes are revealed and both Windclan and Thunderclan are allied against them, meaning it'd be a perfect time to switch sides, she just stands there doing absolutely nothing. stormfall also raises an excellent point, namely that Tigerstar was in no position to be making demands. Riverclan is a strong clan and fighting on the defensive is always a huge advantage. Leopardstar had every advantage on her side of the table, but she was too meek and ineffectual to use it.
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