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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 10:36:28 GMT -5
Feel free to block off the title mods. I'm on mobile, I can't.
So, does anyone get the feeling that Needletail is only "fixing things" for her own selfish benefit? And not just because she genuinely wants to help the cats? She hates the Clans after all. Also remember when she'd always insult the elders when Violetshine kept trying to clean their fur, saying they should do it themselves? Doesn't it seem... rather odd how she's suddenly trying to make things better? I don't think this is a genuine redemption, but more like a "I better fix things before I go to hell" thing. Does anyone else feel the same, that she's doing this for her own selfish reasons?
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#FF55A3
Name Colour
Apricity
Bravelands is too slept on.
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Post by Apricity on Nov 9, 2017 11:28:37 GMT -5
I mean, it's obvious she cares for Violetshine since she frickin sacrificed herself for her. But for this I'm not sure.
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Post by Grizzly on Nov 9, 2017 13:19:32 GMT -5
"Suddenly trying to make things better" I mean it's not like she helped with smuggling useful herbs for clan cats, or gave up her prey to feed imprisoned clan cats, or sacrificed herself for a clan cat
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 13:33:15 GMT -5
"Suddenly trying to make things better" I mean it's not like she helped with smuggling useful herbs for clan cats, or gave up her prey to feed imprisoned clan cats, or sacrificed herself for a clan cat She never cared for anyone up until now, except perhaps Violetshine. Her friendship with her was toxic and manipulative. Hell, it wasn't even a real friendship. Maybe she redeemed herself with Violetshine but I can't help but wonder if she helped others for her own selfish reasons. She always insulted the elders, why would she care now? She probably wouldn't have changed at all of Rain never betrayed her. She only began to care after realizing she messed it up for everyone.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Nov 9, 2017 13:39:43 GMT -5
Needletail seemed to realize that she messed up really badly the moment Rain died. She was still young, as well as an apprentice when she joined Darktail's rogues. Her own resentment towards ShadowClan and the warrior code, which was fueled by the whole owl and Tree incident, got the better of her, and Darktail took advantage of this.
It's basically the equivalent of a kid joining a gang or terrorist group, and realizing too late what they've gotten themselves into.
With Needletail, she was both a manipulator and manipulated. She loved Rain, and his death is what opened her eyes to the mess she helped create. After that, there's a notable difference in her character. For all her faults, this is still the same cat who helped Alderheart and Mothwing get herbs after Darktail took over RiverClan's territory, gave all her food to the RiverClan prisoners, and sacrificed her life for Violetpaw's.
Needletail was always a good cat deep down, and this is best shown in TAQ and the bonus scene of TAS. Even in the main storyline of TAS, she still has her moments of compassion, and she's been shown to be sensitive.
Her good actions in life had nothing to do with wanting to get to StarClan. As for in death, she was a wandering spirit and the only cats who could see her were Violetshine and Tree, so there wasn't much else she could do except complete her unfinished business. She wasn't going anywhere until that was done, and usually in these kinds of stories, a ghost stays a ghost either because they have unfinished business to attend to, or sometimes due to Earthly attachments. Only when they fulfill what they failed to do in life or let go of whatever was keeping them there can they move on to the afterlife.
I recommend you watch the Sixth Sense to a better idea of this.
Another thing is that Needletail wasn't the only wandering spirit shown, and it's implied that there are many, many more dead cats who never made it to either place when they died and are just stuck there. It's both creepy and sad to think about.
In short, yes. I believe Needletail does indeed care.
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Post by briarfrost on Nov 9, 2017 13:45:10 GMT -5
"Suddenly trying to make things better" I mean it's not like she helped with smuggling useful herbs for clan cats, or gave up her prey to feed imprisoned clan cats, or sacrificed herself for a clan cat She never cared for anyone up until now, except perhaps Violetshine. Her friendship with her was toxic and manipulative. Hell, it wasn't even a real friendship. Maybe she redeemed herself with Violetshine but I can't help but wonder if she helped others for her own selfish reasons. She always insulted the elders, why would she care now? She probably wouldn't have changed at all of Rain never betrayed her. She only began to care after realizing she messed it up for everyone. So it's bad for someone to make mistakes, realize they messed up, and then change? From what she says and does, it's evident that she DOES want to make amends. Both she and Tree say the dead cats can't move on "until they've done what they feel they need to do." And that is setting things right for the Clans. If she didn't care about making up for her actions, she wouldn't still be around. Even before she died, she was trying her best to make amends by giving up her herbs and food to the other prisoners. And yes, while her relationship with Violetshine wasn't completely healthy, it WAS genuine.They hung out, hunted together, talked to each other, and enjoyed each other's company. She DIED to save Violetshine. She apologizes for her worse treatments. She tells Violetshine at the end of this book she loves her like a sister. How is that NOT a real relationship?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 13:49:54 GMT -5
She never cared for anyone up until now, except perhaps Violetshine. Her friendship with her was toxic and manipulative. Hell, it wasn't even a real friendship. Maybe she redeemed herself with Violetshine but I can't help but wonder if she helped others for her own selfish reasons. She always insulted the elders, why would she care now? She probably wouldn't have changed at all of Rain never betrayed her. She only began to care after realizing she messed it up for everyone. So it's bad for someone to make mistakes, realize they messed up, and then change? From what she says and does, it's evident that she DOES want to make amends. Tree says he thinks the dead cats can't move on "until they've done what they feel they need to do." If she didn't care about making up for her actions, she wouldn't still be around. And yes, while her relationship with Violetshine wasn't completely healthy, it WAS genuine.They hung out, hunted together, talked to each other, and enjoyed each other's company. She DIED to save Violetshine. She tells Violetshine at the end of this book she loves her like a sister. How is that NOT a real relationship? Never said it's bad for someone to realize they screwed up. I'm talking about before she realized she messed up. Needletail was always manipulative and controlling with Violetshine. She faked her hurt to make Violetpaw feel guilty and she joined The Kin because of this. She only ever cared about herself. She was the first to follow Darktail and support him. She made Violetshine hurt her sister, saying "she's the enemy". How is this a real friendship? While she did give up her life to save her, Needletail was never a good friend. Violetshine only followed her because she was the only one who gave her the attention and made her feel like she belonged. Needletail was horrible to her. Controlling someone and using them is NOT a healthy friendship. Violetshine was always tossed aside, and when she joined ShadowClan, instead of supporting her Needletail got mad at her for it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 13:51:14 GMT -5
I have a love/hate opinion with Needletail. She's a good character but a bad person. She was horrible with her clan and manipulative to Violetshine. She's selfish and never cared for anyone but herself. However I liked the reasons why she became the way she did. She's a well written character.
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Post by Grizzly on Nov 9, 2017 15:14:48 GMT -5
I have a love/hate opinion with Needletail. She's a good character but a bad person. She was horrible with her clan and manipulative to Violetshine. She's selfish and never cared for anyone but herself. However I liked the reasons why she became the way she did. She's a well written character. The thing is she's changed. Thing she is a bad person new would be horribly inaccurate. She is now a extremely kind and very caring person, and a useful asset to the clans. She already gave up her food to clan prisoners even though she was starving. She helped smuggle out lifesaving herbs, and she gave her life up to save her friend. She may have done bad things in the past but she is a good person right now and that is what matters
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Post by NightFrostSun on Nov 9, 2017 15:58:25 GMT -5
Needletail made a terrible mistake just like many other young cats of Shadowclan. Like many other of these repentant young cats she lost her life due to her mistakes. Like the others she generally wants to make things right for the clans. Many of the living young cats who originally sided with the rogues such as Juniperclaw, Scorchfur, Rippletail, Sparrowtail, Cloverfoot, and Berryheart etc. are lucky that they have a chance to redeem themselves while they are still alive and that unlike many other young cats it didn't cost them their lives. So yes Needletail and the other dead Shadowclan cats generally do care about the clans and righting their wrongs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 16:13:44 GMT -5
I do not like Needletail. I don't care if she has changed. She's selfish and she has caused a lot of trouble. She was controlling and terrible to Violetshine and she was the first to support Darktail. Nothing excuses her behavior. I don't like her as a person. She is selfish, manipulative, disrespectful to others, and only cares for herself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 16:16:30 GMT -5
Why don't we just agree to disagree, because I'm not changing my mind. I don't like Needletail and that's that. She is a well written character but what she has done isn't okay. Nothing justifies that.
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Post by briarfrost on Nov 9, 2017 16:42:20 GMT -5
I do not like Needletail. I don't care if she has changed. She's selfish and she has caused a lot of trouble. She was controlling and terrible to Violetshine and she was the first to support Darktail. Nothing excuses her behavior. I don't like her as a person. She is selfish, manipulative, disrespectful to others, and only cares for herself. Why don't we just agree to disagree, because I'm not changing my mind. I don't like Needletail and that's that. She is a well written character but what she has done isn't okay. Nothing justifies that. See, this is where my "so it's not okay to make mistakes and feel bad about them?" comment earlier came from. The Needletail you hate doesn't exist anymore. The Needletail now isn't selfish nor manipulative, but dead and trying to make up for what she did. Needletail cared about Violetshine and showed concern for the other prisoners of the Kin, so your claim she only cares for herself isn't true either. No one's saying you have to like her, but you're basically refusing to acknowledge that she grew up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 16:44:25 GMT -5
I do not like Needletail. I don't care if she has changed. She's selfish and she has caused a lot of trouble. She was controlling and terrible to Violetshine and she was the first to support Darktail. Nothing excuses her behavior. I don't like her as a person. She is selfish, manipulative, disrespectful to others, and only cares for herself. Why don't we just agree to disagree, because I'm not changing my mind. I don't like Needletail and that's that. She is a well written character but what she has done isn't okay. Nothing justifies that. See, this is where my "so it's not okay to make mistakes and feel bad about them?" comment earlier came from. The Needletail you hate doesn't exist anymore. The Needletail now isn't selfish nor manipulative, but dead and trying to make up for what she did. Needletail cared about Violetshine and showed concern for the other prisoners of the Kin, so your claim she only cares for herself isn't true either. No one's saying you have to like her, but you're basically refusing to acknowledge that she grew up. Look, I'm not in the mood to debate anymore. Can we please just agree to disagree? I don't want to change my mind. I don't like Needletail. Can we please end this peacefully and just accept that I don't like her?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Nov 9, 2017 16:48:21 GMT -5
Your question was if Needletail changed and we're saying that she did by pointing out all the good that she's done in SS, as well as before then. Her compassionate side is brought out in TAS when she comforts Rain after Darktail takes out an eye, and she also comforts Alderpaw when he was doubting himself in TAQ. And those are just two examples. Even as far back as TAQ, it's implied that Needletailโlike Violetshineโwas lonely, and it's implied in TAS that the elders telling them stories about how ShadowClan was more respected and feared than they were now influenced her way of thinking as well.
If you think Needletail hasn't changed, then fine. But don't completely shut out the other argument, either, especially when we've already explained why Needletail wasn't completely bad. I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but I am suggesting that you see things from a different perspective to get a better understanding of what we're saying, as well as to get a better understanding on the character herself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 16:48:59 GMT -5
I appreciate you're not shoving your opinion down my throat and I know you're trying to point out things, but I'm honestly burned out from debating. I hope I don't sound aggressive. I'm simply kindly asking not for a debate about Needletail right now. It is exhausting.
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Post by โฒฯฮนะบฮฑฦฯ
ััโฒ on Nov 9, 2017 17:20:57 GMT -5
I believe she does. She knows she messed up not long after Rain was killed; who I still believe took advantage of her/used her and am glad he's dead.
Yeah Needletail caused a whole lot of trouble/death, but in the end she did her best to make up for her mistakes. I truly believe she cares at this point.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 9, 2017 17:28:05 GMT -5
I doubt she cares, personally. I think she thinks she does, but it felt manipulative as always to me.
I never once liked Needletail honestly, and I still don't, no matter how much she "sacraficed" for Violetshine, who also is a cat I don't like too much.
*shrug*
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 17:34:50 GMT -5
I doubt she cares, personally. I think she thinks she does, but it felt manipulative as always to me. I never once liked Needletail honestly, and I still don't, no matter how much she "sacraficed" for Violetshine, who also is a cat I don't like too much. *shrug* Preach, my opinion exactly! We seem to have a lot in common with opinions, except with Ivypool. I understand why people say she's changed, but I can't forgive her for what she has done. She hurt Violetshine and now she's terrified if Needletail is mad at her. Needletail is a terrible role model to Violetshine. Violetshine needed a positive influence. I'm glad she has Hawkwing for that now.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 9, 2017 17:42:29 GMT -5
Yeah. I agree. For that very fact, that Violetshine is still so fearful and desiring of Needletail's approval or support...And I get she was her first "friend" but even if Needletail wanted to help, I think the best thing she can do now is let Violetshine figure life out on her own and decide if Needletail deserves forgiveness or not.
Meh. It's a whole situation I had to struggle through reading. Can I get some Berrynose content please?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Nov 9, 2017 17:49:42 GMT -5
I doubt she cares, personally. I think she thinks she does, but it felt manipulative as always to me. I never once liked Needletail honestly, and I still don't, no matter how much she "sacraficed" for Violetshine, who also is a cat I don't like too much. *shrug* Preach, my opinion exactly! We seem to have a lot in common with opinions, except with Ivypool. I understand why people say she's changed, but I can't forgive her for what she has done. She hurt Violetshine and now she's terrified if Needletail is mad at her. Needletail is a terrible role model to Violetshine. Violetshine needed a positive influence. I'm glad she has Hawkwing for that now. I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but you say that you understand what we're saying, yet you're not even acknowledging the good that she's done. All you're doing is focusing on the bad. Look, no one is going to deny that Needletail was completely good, and her relationship with Violetshine was messed up, but that doesn't mean she was incapable of changing her ways. She's not Sleekwhisker.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 17:53:32 GMT -5
Yeah. I agree. For that very fact, that Violetshine is still so fearful and desiring of Needletail's approval or support...And I get she was her first "friend" but even if Needletail wanted to help, I think the best thing she can do now is let Violetshine figure life out on her own and decide if Needletail deserves forgiveness or not. Meh. It's a whole situation I had to struggle through reading. Can I get some Berrynose content please? What if the Erins named Finpaw "Finnose". Oh lord.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 9, 2017 18:48:17 GMT -5
Yeah. I agree. For that very fact, that Violetshine is still so fearful and desiring of Needletail's approval or support...And I get she was her first "friend" but even if Needletail wanted to help, I think the best thing she can do now is let Violetshine figure life out on her own and decide if Needletail deserves forgiveness or not. Meh. It's a whole situation I had to struggle through reading. Can I get some Berrynose content please? What if the Erins named Finpaw "Finnose". Oh lord. Yo honestly I wouldn't even be maaaad
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