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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 12, 2017 21:45:37 GMT -5
Many of us dislike this pairing and the whole idea of it, but I think the whole point of the pairing was to just give us the original three and drive the plot forward into the future. I also think that, by not giving Hollyleaf a power, the Erins messed up the whole point of having LeafxCrow get together and have kits which were supposed to save the Warriors world.
As a relationship, it was written very rushed and left a lot up to fan speculation, such as fans assuming both cats in the pairing must have noticed each other on the journey. If they did not notice each other on the journey, then yes, their relationship was horribly rushed and came out of nowhere.
As a plot device, it did its job by creating drama, conflict, and giving us new characters for the next series/arc.
What do you think?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 12, 2017 21:59:10 GMT -5
I like CrowxLeaf mostly due to the drama it caused. But from a writing standpoint... well, it could've certainly been better.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 12, 2017 22:08:34 GMT -5
I like CrowxLeaf mostly due to the drama it caused. But from a writing standpoint... well, it could've certainly been better. They definitely could have made them interact during the short scenes on the journey. Perhaps Leafpool could have helped him with something or she could have healed him during the journey...Anything small just to give the relationship a clear path later on.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 12, 2017 22:16:37 GMT -5
I like CrowxLeaf mostly due to the drama it caused. But from a writing standpoint... well, it could've certainly been better. They definitely could have made them interact during the short scenes on the journey. Perhaps Leafpool could have helped him with something or she could have healed him during the journey...Anything small just to give the relationship a clear path later on. They actually did interact on the journey at least once when the cats were nearing the mountains in Dawn. But yeah, a little more interaction would've been nice.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 12, 2017 23:10:09 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵That moment was so small I didn't even know it happened. No wonder I don't remember that...
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 12, 2017 23:18:40 GMT -5
Meh.... There is something insidious about it. Leafxcrow was a main plot of the second half of arc two. The second arc was originally supposed to be 3 books but it was extended. For this? And hawkfrost? I sometimes forget about that fact! Maybe the series went down hill the moment they decided to make the original three a thing, thus needing to bring in LeafxCrow to give the three's births meaning.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 12, 2017 23:27:35 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵That moment was so small I didn't even know it happened. No wonder I don't remember that... I don't blame you. I would've liked to see Crowfeather and Leafpool interact just a little more. Compared to other forbidden relationships though, I think this one is okay.
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Post by Lightflame on Sept 12, 2017 23:30:16 GMT -5
I think it's just that Leafpool is boring.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 12, 2017 23:53:22 GMT -5
I think it's just that Leafpool is boring. I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 13, 2017 0:00:53 GMT -5
I think it's just that Leafpool is boring. I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc. That's what made her boring, at least to me anyway. I always liked Squirrelflight more than her and wasn't really that invested in Leafpool until Leaf x Crow happened.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 13, 2017 0:02:54 GMT -5
I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc. That's what made her boring, at least to me anyway. I always liked Squirrelflight more than her and wasn't really that invested in Leafpool until Leaf x Crow happened. Well, when putting it that way, I suppose it's a bit clearer as to why some people might find her in that manner.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 13, 2017 0:19:08 GMT -5
That's what made her boring, at least to me anyway. I always liked Squirrelflight more than her and wasn't really that invested in Leafpool until Leaf x Crow happened. Well, when putting it that way, I suppose it's a bit clearer as to why some people might find her in that manner. When it comes to two sets of siblings in general, I often tend to prefer the more "strong" sibling over the "soft" one. Here are a few examples: Skystar over Gray Wing Goosefeather over Moonflower Bluestar over Snowfur Tawnypelt over Bramblestar Squirrelflight over Leafpool Sparkpelt over Alderheart Violetpaw over Twigpaw Really, the only exception is that I prefer Dovewing over Ivypool, and even then I think both of them could've been written better. It just depends which one I find the most interesting of the two.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Sept 13, 2017 7:10:19 GMT -5
I think it's just that Leafpool is boring. I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc. when shes not boring kate turns her into a drama queen
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 13, 2017 11:36:34 GMT -5
I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc. when shes not boring kate turns her into a drama queen Regarding "drama queen." I think it is part of how she grew up. By that, I mean her naivety caused her to grow up more in an odd position, having run away to be with a first love, only to return and throw all of that effort away. I would image such actions and consequences would leave someone severely damaged and possess a different world view than most.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 13, 2017 12:12:03 GMT -5
I like CrowxLeaf mostly due to the drama it caused. But from a writing standpoint... well, it could've certainly been better. I'm kinda the same, I don't like the pairing though, but lets be real, when Hollyleaf exposed the secret at the gathering, everyone in the fandom flipped out, especially how that book ended. The drama was top quality off the rail back then. But yeah, the romance between Leaf and Crow could have been done better.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 13, 2017 12:16:05 GMT -5
Well, when putting it that way, I suppose it's a bit clearer as to why some people might find her in that manner. When it comes to two sets of siblings in general, I often tend to prefer the more "strong" sibling over the "soft" one. Here are a few examples: Skystar over Gray Wing Goosefeather over Moonflower Bluestar over Snowfur Tawnypelt over Bramblestar Squirrelflight over Leafpool Sparkpelt over Alderheart Violetpaw over Twigpaw Really, the only exception is that I prefer Dovewing over Ivypool, and even then I think both of them could've been written better. It just depends which one I find the most interesting of the two. For me: Gray Wing over Skystar, I felt he was written better. Moonflower over Goosefeather, although Goose had more personality. Snowfur over Bluestar, Blue felt too much of a hypocrite to me. Tawnypelt over Bramblestar, but they both had bad taste in romance. Squirrelflight over Leafpool, but as of AVoS, Leaf is "okay". Sparkpelt over Alderheart, I wish she had more focus. Violetpaw over Twigpaw, tough choice, but Violet is more interesting. Ivypool over Dovewing, waiting for Ivystar one day.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Sept 13, 2017 21:01:49 GMT -5
when shes not boring kate turns her into a drama queen Regarding "drama queen." I think it is part of how she grew up. By that, I mean her naivety caused her to grow up more in an odd position, having run away to be with a first love, only to return and throw all of that effort away. I would image such actions and consequences would leave someone severely damaged and possess a different world view than most. I'm more bugged by her being the only one to not understand there are more religions than starclan and was convinced they had abandoned the clans after they said they would be distant and she me the tribe of endless hunting. That waslayers of stupidity on her part. I also dislike how she almost crippled cinderheart due to her own paranoia.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 13, 2017 21:37:10 GMT -5
Regarding "drama queen." I think it is part of how she grew up. By that, I mean her naivety caused her to grow up more in an odd position, having run away to be with a first love, only to return and throw all of that effort away. I would image such actions and consequences would leave someone severely damaged and possess a different world view than most. I'm more bugged by her being the only one to not understand there are more religions than starclan and was convinced they had abandoned the clans after they said they would be distant and she me the tribe of endless hunting. That waslayers of stupidity on her part. I also dislike how she almost crippled cinderheart due to her own paranoia. The religion problem seems to be a culture thing because the clans have been mostly isolated and didn't know other big established groups existed such as the tribe. Even with knowledge the tribe exists due to Squirrelpaw returning home, I guess I can see what you mean since Leafpaw had time to absorb the information from Squirrelpaw. Also, forgive me, but I do not remember a time Leafpool almost crippled Cinderheart? I only remember her being paranoid because she knew it was Cinderpelt's past repeating to the new host, Cinderheart, and she wanted to save her leg.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 22:04:20 GMT -5
I think it's just that Leafpool is boring. I don't quite understand how people think she is boring? She is kind and caring, loves her job and is dedicated to it, was naive when she was younger...etc. I like Leafpool, but I think it's the fact that she doesn't.. have "obvious flaws". Like Squirrelflight, she's rude & stubborn, also likes to argue, however Squirrel grew into a mature character. Leaf on the other hand is just your typical "nice cat". When she did develop, she acted childish, when she yelled at Cinder about being with Crow. She also selfishly ran away from her Clan. When the truth came out, she was.. only sad. That's it. Nothing else came out of her until AVoS, when she started to stand up for herself. However, I like her because I see Leaf as a strong character. No matter how often cats rejected her, did she go insane? No. She never stopped loving her kits, even after they treated her terribly. She made a lot of sacrifices for the good of her clan. She also had to put up with Crow's disgusting abuse against her. She was told that she meant nothing from her kits and the one she loved. Leaf had to deal with the fact that Crow "moved on", using Night and Breeze to gain his reputation. She had to watch her kits grow up from a different mother. She was so close to her kits, and yet so far. She stood up to Spiderleg, telling him he should appreciate his kits. She even stood up to Crowfeather, when he watched his own sons fight, and did nothing to stop. Leafpool stopped the fight. Despite everything, whatever people say, I think Leafpool is a strong warrior. Yeah, she may have been sad for a while, but do people expect her to be happy that she had to give everything up? Cats hated her, and took years to forgive her. Honestly, the only things I don't like that she did were leaving her clan, but.. she came back. She could have left. Unlike Dovewing, who left her clan, Leafpool did come back, which shows she's still loyal. I know I shouldn't compare the two characters, but this shows how loyal Leafpool really is to her clan, she was willing to give up her own happiness for her family. She was selfish, but no one is perfect. She matured and I am sure she has learned her lesson, unlike Dovewing.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Sept 13, 2017 23:16:07 GMT -5
I'm more bugged by her being the only one to not understand there are more religions than starclan and was convinced they had abandoned the clans after they said they would be distant and she me the tribe of endless hunting. That waslayers of stupidity on her part. I also dislike how she almost crippled cinderheart due to her own paranoia. The religion problem seems to be a culture thing because the clans have been mostly isolated and didn't know other big established groups existed such as the tribe. Even with knowledge the tribe exists due to Squirrelpaw returning home, I guess I can see what you mean since Leafpaw had time to absorb the information from Squirrelpaw. Also, forgive me, but I do not remember a time Leafpool almost crippled Cinderheart? I only remember her being paranoid because she knew it was Cinderpelt's past repeating to the new host, Cinderheart, and she wanted to save her leg. The weird thing is that nobody else in the series has her problem. The clans see Starclan as their warrior ancestors and they are well aware this is not everyone's religion. in fact they often assume outsiders are atheist because Starclan is tied to their people and their land. despite all the clans various social problems, they are surprisingly religiously tolerant. Leafpool is the only one who doesn't get this and its annoying. In Eclipse Leafpool let Cinderheart go back to training despite the fact she knew Cinderheart was not strong enough and Cinderheart inevitably got injured because of this. it was just a strain and the only way it would heal properly was if Cinderheart did light exercises to build her muscles up. Which Leafpool wouldn't let her do. Jayfeather had to go behind her back to get Cinderheart proper care.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Sept 14, 2017 13:12:32 GMT -5
The religion problem seems to be a culture thing because the clans have been mostly isolated and didn't know other big established groups existed such as the tribe. Even with knowledge the tribe exists due to Squirrelpaw returning home, I guess I can see what you mean since Leafpaw had time to absorb the information from Squirrelpaw. Also, forgive me, but I do not remember a time Leafpool almost crippled Cinderheart? I only remember her being paranoid because she knew it was Cinderpelt's past repeating to the new host, Cinderheart, and she wanted to save her leg. The weird thing is that nobody else in the series has her problem. The clans see Starclan as their warrior ancestors and they are well aware this is not everyone's religion. in fact they often assume outsiders are atheist because Starclan is tied to their people and their land. despite all the clans various social problems, they are surprisingly religiously tolerant. Leafpool is the only one who doesn't get this and its annoying. In Eclipse Leafpool let Cinderheart go back to training despite the fact she knew Cinderheart was not strong enough and Cinderheart inevitably got injured because of this. it was just a strain and the only way it would heal properly was if Cinderheart did light exercises to build her muscles up. Which Leafpool wouldn't let her do. Jayfeather had to go behind her back to get Cinderheart proper care. Oh, I see. I just didn't remember Eclipse that well!
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Post by dixonticonderoga on Sept 14, 2017 17:16:20 GMT -5
Leafpool is one of those characters I dislike more as I get older. I always thought of her as the "sweet, innocent and cute girl next door type with an overprotective father, dreams of being a nurse, and has a bad boy rebel crush". I always agreed with the fandom that TNP was the "teenager angst" arc. I mean come on, she almost sounds like a suburban spoiled daughter stereotype or something. That being said, I never thought of it as "she must be a sue" back then, but rather, that she is the "nice she-cat" archetype. The more this is used as the series goes on, the more I will unfairly start to dislike all of the cats who fit this description.
Well, my opinion about her changes not only with getting older/fandom influence, but also depending on which point we're talking about.
She is the first medicine cat POV we get to see, and shes pretty much just what you would expect from a healer character, or a nurse with a soft and sweet voice or whatever. One thing I gotta say though, is that I hate the "shes only a medicine cat because of nepotism LOL Firestar is a long living gary stu" thing. Cats literally only have to ask to be one, its not like she was appointed deputy as a kit or something. Also in defense of her, because she stays at home while the others journey, its natural that her contribution to the plot would be less interesting.
In POT shes basically just the same but older and wiser. I mostly just had no opinion on her at all, because its only in the last book that she becomes relevant again. I feel like I was stupid back then, I mean her constantly freaking out over her kits as well as the fact that they look like Crowfeather is so painfully obvious. But even while reading Sunrise, I somehow didn't put two and two together. I mean come on, we all know that the prophecy said that its gotta be Firestar's kin, and shes the only one who'd make sense if its not Squirrelflight. My stupidity aside, I gotta say, she did somewhat annoy me as Jayfeather's mentor.
I need to find the quote somewhere, but in either Eclipse or Long Shadows, she babies him with some smothering advice while hes still an apprentice. Then after he gets his full name she still acts that way. The plot twist certainly makes you understand why she'd do that given the context, but I found it irritating nontheless. If anything, she knew about his powers(at least when it comes to dreams and being able to see in them, I don't know if she knew about three itself, or the fact the fact that he could invade dreams during the day/outside the moonpool) so why be worried about him? You know that hes more capable than other medicine cats because of that, so why not control yourself a little more and let him relax?
Now, in OOTS, this is where the fandom's influence on my opinion comes into play. At the time it did annoy me that she gets no formal punishment, but the fact that her own kits hated her, CrowNight was still happening, and a while ago she felt survivor's guilt about her mentor seemed like enough in my opinion. Now people have informed me that shes an author favorite, and honestly, it does seem ridiculous that she gets to be a warrior. Being a warrior is what Swiftpaw, Snowkit, the Cinders, and Jayfeather wanted all along anyways. Its certainly not her dream life, but come on now, its no proper comeuppance either. She literally does nothing except maybe during TLH when they shoe horn in some drama one last time. We all knew this was gonna happen, but they could have written it in a more intersting way.
In AVOS, I've read TAQ and oh my god GET IT TOGETHER ERINS. Of course with Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight in charge, you can't really expect anything less at this point. But still, she did not deserve to get her position back again! During the DF battle they were worried about cats dying so it actually made sense, after all not letting her treat the victims would be cruel. But now its like what the fox dung, they don't need three whole medicine cats. In fact, ThunderClan has way too many cats who have at least a little bit of experience with herbs anyways. The way they write her is kinda smug/arogant/brainwashed by StarClan too. Just think about this for a second- she has literally forced two cats into an unwanted medicine cat destiny, without bothering to ask them if they want to be warriors first. Sure Jayfeather had no chance and Alderpaw had anxeity, but still she didn't even bother having a dialogue with the latter. She just stares at him all creepily and is like "yeah, thats the one, thats the one whose life I'm going to tamper with because I'm so important".
Also AMVs really effect you alot growing up. I think seeing the sad Leafpool stuff where shes the victim of Crowfeather's... Crowfeather-ness and the burden of a secret alone with her best friend really gets to you. Back then any "angsty" aspects of warriors made me really want to just keep on reading the books unironically while loving them for the most part. But now yeah, I can see why shes one of the main reasons why people rant about how poorly written the books are. If anything, I still don't mind her as a character but I feel like shes proof of why the series in general has bad writing.
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