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Post by Whispering Willow on May 27, 2024 9:51:40 GMT -5
I haven't read SqH but the way the scenario is phrased, says that Bramblestar refused to let any medicine cats treat Sunrise BECAUSE he was angry at Squirrelflight, right? If that is the case then I don't think it's justified. I feel like he should have put aside his marriage problems and allowed his medicine cats to heal her Obviously he had no obligation to use his own Clan's herbs to heal an outsider, but she almost died, didn't she? It seems weirdly unlike Bramblestar to leave a stranger dying in the middle of his camp and ban his medicine cats from healing her unless he had a motive right?? Am I wrong in saying that motive was his anger against Squirrelflight? Idk. I see a lot of ppl saying this is justified but I just don't see it. And while I've also heard a lot of his actions in that book are very out of character, that still doesn't make the action justified Yes it sounds like Squirrelflight put him in a bad position, but the scenario isn't asking if she was justified in bringing Sunrise there, it was if he was justified in letting her die in the middle of his camp Apologies, I maybe should have included more context; I write these under the assumption that most people here have read the books and know more background information, as I try to keep it brief and to the point. As other people have said, part of Bramblestar's anger stems from Tigerstar wanting to drive the Sisters away after they attacked a ShadowClan patrol, and because he wants the territory that they are occupying for SkyClan (he doesn't want SkyClan to be where they are). Bramblestar doesn't want to risk ShadowClan's anger and spends a lot of time in this book trying to avoid conflict, and helping Sunrise could have compromised that. This is all mixed with his frustration with Squirrelflight for going behind his back. You are free to change your vote if added background sways your view.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 27, 2024 10:08:55 GMT -5
I haven't read SqH but the way the scenario is phrased, says that Bramblestar refused to let any medicine cats treat Sunrise BECAUSE he was angry at Squirrelflight, right? If that is the case then I don't think it's justified. I feel like he should have put aside his marriage problems and allowed his medicine cats to heal her Obviously he had no obligation to use his own Clan's herbs to heal an outsider, but she almost died, didn't she? It seems weirdly unlike Bramblestar to leave a stranger dying in the middle of his camp and ban his medicine cats from healing her unless he had a motive right?? Am I wrong in saying that motive was his anger against Squirrelflight? Idk. I see a lot of ppl saying this is justified but I just don't see it. And while I've also heard a lot of his actions in that book are very out of character, that still doesn't make the action justified Yes it sounds like Squirrelflight put him in a bad position, but the scenario isn't asking if she was justified in bringing Sunrise there, it was if he was justified in letting her die in the middle of his camp Apologies, I maybe should have included more context; I write these under the assumption that most people here have read the books and know more background information, as I try to keep it brief and to the point. If it helps, when I made a similar thread years ago, I made sure to include quotes to help with context, especially since reading isn't necessary the same as actually retaining information. Maybe you could do that?
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 27, 2024 10:21:03 GMT -5
Apologies, I maybe should have included more context; I write these under the assumption that most people here have read the books and know more background information, as I try to keep it brief and to the point. If it helps, when I made a similar thread years ago, I made sure to include quotes to help with context, especially since reading isn't necessary the same as actually retaining information. Maybe you could do that? I could try that, but with how much work I already have to do, I'm not sure I'll have the time to put it all together, especially for books I myself don't remember super well and would have to search through for relevant quotes. Context is definitely an issue for some of these though, so I'll look into it.
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on May 27, 2024 11:42:33 GMT -5
Good lord, I read through that entire segment again, if only to understand both sides.
Squirrelflight is such an unreliable narrator holy-
I can see where Bramblestar is coming from. This is right after the whole debacle with Darktail after all; many cats aren't exactly going to feel chummy towards outsiders, especially outsiders who have already been shown to be hostile.
On the other hand, Starclan is as vague as ever but didn't necessarily tell the med cats that they couldn't treat Sunrise.
Do I think he should have treated Sunrise in the end? Yes.
Do I see why he's in this seemingly impossible decision? Also yes.
The question isn't whether his actions were justifiable, just whether his decision was justifiable if that's what I'm getting at.
I gotta abstain from this one tbh. Part of me wants to say he wasn't justified, but another part of me understands why he's acting in such a way. I'm about as split as Thunderclan was in that moment. :/
Votes seem to be split on the issue too. Go figure.
I wonder how the response would be if the question was whether Squirrelflight was justified in bringing Sunrise back for treatment?
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Post by moongloweevee on May 27, 2024 12:11:33 GMT -5
The whole scenario is rough to justify who's right and who's wrong but I feel like Bramblestar is justified for one reason: why did the Sisters seek out Thunderclan's help in the first place in this? Did the writer suddenly forget in this one instance that Skyclan was sandwiched between Shadowclan and Thunderclan? And the Sisters knew that Thunderclan and Skyclan would have fought to get Squirrelflight and Leafstar back- something that should have deterred them from seeking their help.
It's just an overall hard situation and if it was judging the Sisters seeking Squirrelflight's help, then they'd be easily unjustifiable.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 27, 2024 12:26:49 GMT -5
Although I understand that political tensions were high and treating Sunrise could cause potential issues later, allowing a cat to slowly die out in front of you over the course of several days is just inexcusably unethical to me. Even if she was an enemy. Even if doing so might have ramifications later. That doesn't change the fact that murder via neglect is distinctly immoral.
It is more important to do the right ethical thing -- and yes, open your community up backlash and potential harm in the process -- than to preserve yourself at the expense of doing what is right. People, and especially those in leadership positions, must make a stand for what is right regardless of the consequences. It takes guts to do that, and unfortunately Bramblestar did not have the leadership chops to make that harder decision.
EDIT: To clarify, whether or not Squirelflight should have brought Sunrise to camp for help is outside the scope of this question. Regardless of how or why, Bramblestar was faced with the choice to help Sunrise or let her die. That is what I am judging.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 27, 2024 17:09:17 GMT -5
With 16 votes for Justified and 16 votes for Unjustified, Bramblestar's judgment is Undecided. A last-minute tie for a very divisive topic. Note: I have decided to try to implement an idea from 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 in which I provide one or more relevant quotes to provide context for those who may not have read a book or may not remember important details. However, this means that the current schedule of a reset every day is not sustainable for me, as I will need to take extra time to find and write out quotes. The schedule is going to change to every other day, effective now, so that I am not stressing myself to death. To accommodate the lack of quotes, I have tried to give more detail than usual for this scenario. Bluefur: In Bluestar’s Prophecy, Bluefur is told throughout her life by Goosefeather that she has a great destiny. She deals with her mistrust of the ambitious Thistleclaw, whom Goosefeather has warned will lead ThunderClan into bloodshed and destruction if he is allowed to become leader. After spending a night with the RiverClan deputy, Oakheart, she finds that she is pregnant with his kits. Believing that she needs to fulfill Goosefeather’s prophecy and prevent Thistleclaw from becoming deputy, she surrenders her kits to Oakheart to raise in RiverClan so that Sunstar will appoint her deputy. She does so in the middle of a dangerous snowstorm, in which Mosskit dies from the cold. Was Bluefur justified in surrendering her kits to Oakheart in order to prevent Thistleclaw from becoming deputy?
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Post by dandelions on May 27, 2024 19:15:22 GMT -5
Unjustified, because it feels like some steps were skipped before resorting to that. Full disclosure, I haven’t read Bluestar’s Prophecy in ages, so I’m relying on the wiki summaries to fill in some info. From what I recall/read, Bluefur seemingly never voices the full extent of her concerns about Thistleclaw to Sunstar. Him ordering Tigerpaw to attack Tiny goes unreported, for one. She apparently tries to report his violent outburst at the border, but Sunstar cuts her off with concern about her being involved in fights while pregnant, alludes to Thistleclaw as his alternative deputy candidate since she’s unavailable, and then she doesn’t attempt to voice those concerns again. I can’t imagine Sunstar would have overlooked it if he knew the full basis for her concerns, both because he trusts her greatly and because he’s later stated to have had his own concerns about Thistleclaw. Instead she goes straight to marching her very young kits through a frigid winter night, at the cost of one’s life. Surrendering them under less risky conditions would be more understandable, but I can’t give her the benefit of the doubt about the safety of moving them that night. She’s completely right to fight against Thistleclaw becoming deputy, but specifically endangering the kits to reach that end when she hadn’t exhausted her options isn’t justified imo.
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Post by moongloweevee on May 27, 2024 19:39:08 GMT -5
Unjustified, because it feels like some steps were skipped before resorting to that. Full disclosure, I haven’t read Bluestar’s Prophecy in ages, so I’m relying on the wiki summaries to fill in some info. From what I recall/read, Bluefur seemingly never voices the full extent of her concerns about Thistleclaw to Sunstar. Him ordering Tigerpaw to attack Tiny goes unreported, for one. She apparently tries to report his violent outburst at the border, but Sunstar cuts her off with concern about her being involved in fights while pregnant, alludes to Thistleclaw as his alternative deputy candidate since she’s unavailable, and then she doesn’t attempt to voice those concerns again. I can’t imagine Sunstar would have overlooked it if he knew the full basis for her concerns, both because he trusts her greatly and because he’s later stated to have had his own concerns about Thistleclaw. Instead she goes straight to marching her very young kits through a frigid winter night, at the cost of one’s life. Surrendering them under less risky conditions would be more understandable, but I can’t give her the benefit of the doubt about the safety of moving them that night. She’s completely right to fight against Thistleclaw becoming deputy, but specifically endangering the kits to reach that end when she hadn’t exhausted her options isn’t justified imo. It was also extremely pointless because Sunstar admits to Bluefur later that he was never going to choose Thistleclaw as deputy.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 28, 2024 1:37:47 GMT -5
Justified. I feel like people are too hard on Bluefur/Bluestar
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 28, 2024 3:42:47 GMT -5
Unjustified, because it feels like some steps were skipped before resorting to that. Full disclosure, I haven’t read Bluestar’s Prophecy in ages, so I’m relying on the wiki summaries to fill in some info. From what I recall/read, Bluefur seemingly never voices the full extent of her concerns about Thistleclaw to Sunstar. Him ordering Tigerpaw to attack Tiny goes unreported, for one. She apparently tries to report his violent outburst at the border, but Sunstar cuts her off with concern about her being involved in fights while pregnant, alludes to Thistleclaw as his alternative deputy candidate since she’s unavailable, and then she doesn’t attempt to voice those concerns again. I can’t imagine Sunstar would have overlooked it if he knew the full basis for her concerns, both because he trusts her greatly and because he’s later stated to have had his own concerns about Thistleclaw. Instead she goes straight to marching her very young kits through a frigid winter night, at the cost of one’s life. Surrendering them under less risky conditions would be more understandable, but I can’t give her the benefit of the doubt about the safety of moving them that night. She’s completely right to fight against Thistleclaw becoming deputy, but specifically endangering the kits to reach that end when she hadn’t exhausted her options isn’t justified imo. It was also extremely pointless because Sunstar admits to Bluefur later that he was never going to choose Thistleclaw as deputy. But she didn't know that. He implied at one point that he was going to, which is why she thought he would.
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Aroace
Elmpaw
Gummy Bear Fanatic
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Post by Elmpaw on May 28, 2024 8:12:09 GMT -5
I feel like this was justified because is Thistleclaw became deputy, he would of ended up destroying the clan, so Bluefur had to do something, so she did.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 28, 2024 12:52:37 GMT -5
Justified. Didn't Goosefeather straight up tell her that she had to give up her kits and become deputy according to StarClan's will, or something along those lines?
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Post by 🎃👻 Slightdapple 👻🎃 on May 28, 2024 15:18:09 GMT -5
Bluefur was justified imo.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 29, 2024 4:55:13 GMT -5
I think sometimes people forget that Bluefur didn't chuck her kits aside, just because she had ambitions to become deputy. She was pressured into it by Goosefeather, StarClan, and the worry of Thistleclaw one day becoming leader.
She was content being a mother and raising her kits. But with all that pressure on her, she felt the best option for her Clan's future rest on giving her kits away to their father.
She knew they would be safe and loved in RiverClan with their father. It broke her heart to give her kits up! She never intended for any of her kits to die. She suffered with guilt over Mosskit's death until, she herself, died.
This was a very hard decision that she was forced into because of a Prophecy. It's no wonder she wound up losing her shit in TPB. She gave up everything that mattered to her for her Clan, only to be betrayed and almost murdered by one of her Clanmates. On top of that, having her kits reject her to her face. That's a lot for anyone to handle tbh.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 29, 2024 7:47:27 GMT -5
^I forgot about this, but wasn’t one of the driving factors also that it was a super harsh winter and she running out of milk due to starvation? I remember her mentioning to Fireheart that giving her kits to their father in RiverClan would ensure they would be fed all winter.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 29, 2024 8:02:36 GMT -5
I feel like Goosefeather's influence gets really downplayed when it comes to this discussion, because even though Bluefur wasn't fond of him, he still hammered the prophecy into her head literally since she was an apprentice. Sunstar may have implied he wouldn't have chosen Thistleclaw anyway, but Bluefur hadn't known that (and also never reflects on it); all she and Goosefeather saw was a bloodthirsty cat. Never mind that Sunstar had actually already considered him to be deputy material previously, on top of there being a particularly harsh leaf-bare at the time. And it's not like she wanted to give up her kits anyway, everything was just really unfortunate timing. It's just a shame poor Mosskit paid the ultimate price.
All this to say, justified.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 29, 2024 16:53:26 GMT -5
With 20 votes for Justified and 10 votes for Unjustified, Bluefur is Justified! Next scenario: Lionpaw: In Eclipse, WindClan attacks ThunderClan, causing all four Clans to fight. While searching out the WindClan patrols that had split up, Lionpaw realizes that they had used the tunnels he had met with Heatherpaw in to attack. He finds Heatherpaw and attacks her, believing that she told Onestar about the tunnels. He refuses to believe her when she says that she did not tell. Crowfeather appears as Lionpaw is leaving, and Lionpaw ends up nearly killing him in his rage. Was Lionpaw justified for attacking Heatherpaw and Crowfeather over his belief that Heatherpaw reported the tunnels to WindClan? The scene in question for those who need it:
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Post by moongloweevee on May 29, 2024 18:29:26 GMT -5
I would say a little justified because Onestar orchestrated an attack in the dead of night and could have potentially killed at least a good chunk of Thunderclan because he wanted Firestar to stop overstepping his boundaries. It didn't help that Riverclan also decided to join them and if it wasn't for Shadowclan and the eclipse, they would have definitely lost cats in that battle.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 30, 2024 6:13:51 GMT -5
No, it was reckless and stupid. Killing the two of them could've made things much worse for his Clan. Unjustified.
Also Heatherpaw was his friend, and yet he refused to believe her and resorted to violence?
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Post by dandelions on May 30, 2024 17:33:30 GMT -5
Unjustified, but I think that's the point. Lionblaze's impulsivity and anger combined with invincibility powers is such an interesting premise to me and this scene is a good illustration of him realizing that's a problem.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 31, 2024 17:08:03 GMT -5
With 5 votes for Justified and 23 votes for Unjustified, Lionpaw is Unjustified! We have officially completed 50 scenarios! Next scenario: Darkstar (SkyClan): In Code of the Clans, Darkstar agrees to give a portion of SkyClan land to ThunderClan, as ThunderClan has too many kits to feed. His deputy, Raincloud, argues, but in response, Darkstar proposes a new addition to the warrior code that states that the leader’s word is law. All of the other leaders agree, with Yellowstar, the ShadowClan leader, being the only one to hesitate. Was Darkstar justified in proposing this new law to silence opposition from cats below the leaders? The scene for anyone who needs it:
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on May 31, 2024 17:25:57 GMT -5
CODE OF THE CLANS CHARACTER WOOOOO
anyways this guy sucked. there's something to be said obviously for the clans being messed up by default but as they are they do depend on having enough land. darkstar's clan knew he was making a stupid choice and it only hurt skyclan in the long run. and then when someone speaks up for their clan, knowing she isn't the only one to disagree with him, he immediately decides to insult her, create Tyrants R Cool: The Rule, and then vaguely threaten her position in the clan. What a pathetic clown. I think he's a very fun character but he's not justified
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Post by 🎃👻 Slightdapple 👻🎃 on May 31, 2024 17:47:26 GMT -5
Unjustified. The decision to give away land to ThunderClan eventually hurt SkyClan in the long term, and that code hurt the all the Clans because of tyrants using it to justify their decisions.
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Post by Purdyisbestboi on May 31, 2024 18:07:34 GMT -5
OH GOD NO UNJUSTIFIED He destroyed his clan for kits of another clan.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 2, 2024 17:14:57 GMT -5
With 1 vote for Justified and 19 votes for Unjustified, Darkstar is Unjustified! Next scenario: Tallstar: In Onestar’s Confession, Brushpaw and Tansypaw fail their warrior assessments, which Onepaw attributes to their constant trips to the Twolegplace. As a result, Tallstar decides that they cannot be warriors, and only changes his mind when Onepaw points out the unfairness in not giving the former kittypets a second chance--something that would be done for a Clanborn cat. Despite that Tallstar had previously told the kittypets that they would be driven out if they failed to prove themselves, he decides to offer Brushpaw another opportunity to train, which he accepts. Was Tallstar justified in his initial decision to kick Brushpaw and Tansypaw out of WindClan for failing their assessments? Two scenes are provided below. The first one is when Tallstar warns the kittypets about the difficulty of Clan life, and the second one is the scene in question.
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Post by Purdyisbestboi on Jun 2, 2024 19:00:01 GMT -5
He’s justified, but a little bit surprising considering he wanted Jake to join the clans. Maybe being leader made him change a little bit, and he HAD already given them a chance.
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on Jun 3, 2024 14:21:24 GMT -5
I think the main difference here is that the kittypets had housefolk they could go back to if Clan life didn't work out. They have a home to fall back to. Clan cats don't. If they were kicked out of the Clan they would be homeless, and forcing homelessness on cats is bad, especially because they don't have a fallback.
It is also the fact that the kittypets weren't taking the training seriously. They were repeatedly sneaking into the twolegplace for handouts and gossip when their Clanmates had to endure the suffering of the wild. If you want to commit to being a WindClan cat, you need to commit to the hard as well as the easy. Being a warrior isn't fun and games, it's a way of life that isn't suitable for most cats, even some Clanborn cats.
You also have to remember that in Tallstar's external case, kittypets are looked down upon by Clan cats. His words were harsh but I imagine they had to be given his past with kittypets and his Clan's knowledge of him running away. Inside, Tallstar knows that kittypets can be warriors, but has to act like he thinks they can't in order to keep political peace.
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Post by Quill on Jun 3, 2024 20:05:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I think he was justified. He gave them their chance, and they didn't take it remotely seriously. Plus, he showed himself to be reasonable by changing his mind later on.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 4, 2024 17:19:47 GMT -5
With 18 votes for Justified and 4 votes for Unjustified, Tallstar is Justified! Next scenario: Mothwing: In Darkness Within, Mothwing believes that Shadowsight is not ready to be a medicine cat due to his mistake in accidentally killing Bramblestar and allowing Ashfur to possess him. Even before this, Mothwing had been questioning the way he does things and had been argumentative. It is also revealed that Mothwing had previously spoken with both Tigerstar and Puddleshine about Shadowsight and expressed doubts about him. With further pressure from Mothwing, Puddleshine eventually decides to revert Shadowsight back to his apprentice duties until StarClan returns and tells them whether or not he should be a medicine cat, and Tigerstar agrees. Was Mothwing justified in questioning Shadowsight’s readiness to be a full medicine cat and encouraging Puddleshine to demote him? The scene is provided below (warning: very long).
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