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Post by thehiddenicewolf on Jun 18, 2024 4:28:00 GMT -5
Unjustified, honestly Raggedpelt didn't need to go that far just cuz he was furious with him
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jun 18, 2024 8:41:06 GMT -5
raggedpelt killing his dad like yes my default response to anger is to impulsively lash out and then lie about it afterwards. i'm sure this will serve me well in a romantic relationship with the cat i used as an excuse to kill a guy
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jun 18, 2024 19:13:55 GMT -5
Unjustified. Raggedpelt had a right to defend his Clan, but he didn't need to kill.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 19, 2024 17:15:53 GMT -5
With 5 votes for Justified and 17 votes for Unjustified, Raggedpelt is Unjustified! Next scenario: Tawnypelt: In Darkest Night, Tawnypelt argues with Scorchfur when he accuses Rowanstar of being a weak and incapable leader. She defends her mate, but Scorchfur persists, blaming Rowanstar for Darktail taking over ShadowClan, and eventually, Tawnypelt snaps and claws him. Scorchfur attacks her as a result and nearly blinds her. Was Tawnypelt justified in starting a fight with Scorchfur over Rowanstar? Scorchfur's argument with Tawnypelt and Rowanstar is provided below. The argument:
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 20, 2024 0:45:29 GMT -5
Unjustified. If she's going to resort to attacking him then he has the right to defend himself. I'll never understand people getting angry at Scorchfur for that, simply because he happened to almost hit her eye, but completely ignore the fact that she attacked him first over words. If she can't keep her cool during an argument like that, then she doesn't deserve to even be in a position of power. Using violence under those circumstances solves nothing, so I don't even blame Scorchfur for wanting to leave after, despite feeling guilty even though, again, he had the RIGHT to defend himself.
Her using violence to defend Rowanstar only makes HIM look even more incompetent, especially when he wasn't even the one to stop the fight in the first place. I blame it on bad writing, but I still won't excuse how horrendous of a leader Rowan was at the time. Even Alderheart pointed out that no one was in control of ShadowClan.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jun 20, 2024 13:52:58 GMT -5
Responding to mean words with violence isn’t justified.
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Post by silverstarpenguin on Jun 21, 2024 11:05:04 GMT -5
I think she was unjustified. Although Scorchfur was provoking her, defending her mate, the Clan leader with a bad repuattion, made him look weak in a moment when he had to prove his strength. It was normal for her to defend him, but violence is not the answer, especially coming from a warrior with her experience.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 21, 2024 17:31:25 GMT -5
With 6 votes for Justified and 14 votes for Unjustified, Tawnypelt is Unjustified! Next scenario: Fireheart and Graystripe: In Forest of Secrets, after saving Mistyfoot’s kits from the flood, Fireheart and Graystripe discover that RiverClan has been forced out of their camp and that they are struggling to survive. The two warriors offer to provide ThunderClan prey to RiverClan to help them survive, and Crookedstar accepts. They do so in secret, and eventually, Tigerclaw catches and reports them. Bluestar punishes them, and they can no longer help RiverClan. Were Fireheart and Graystripe justified in giving RiverClan ThunderClan prey during the flood, without asking for permission from Bluestar? (credit to Saint Ambrosef) The original agreement and their punishment are provided below. The agreement: Punishment:
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Post by silverstarpenguin on Jun 22, 2024 5:06:07 GMT -5
Were they justified in helping another Clan survive? Sure. But they shouldn't have done it behind their Clan leader's back. Bluestar was a sensitive cat and she wouldn't have refused to help, especially if the lives of Stonefur, Mistyfoot and her kits were at sake.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 23, 2024 17:05:09 GMT -5
With 15 votes for Justified and 4 votes for Unjustified, Fireheart and Graystripe are Justified! Next scenario: Casper: In Riverstar’s Home, Casper comes across River Ripple, Night, and his mate, Cleo, as Night is teaching Cleo how to swim. Assuming that Night is drowning her, he attacks her, inflicting a dangerous wound before Cleo stops him. He is scolded by Cleo, and River Ripple and Night are unimpressed, with Night’s distrust of other cats further solidified after the incident. Casper, however, is remorseful. Was Casper justified in attacking Night under the assumption that she was going to kill his mate? Casper's attack and Night's distrust are provided below. Attack: Night's distrust:
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 24, 2024 1:25:42 GMT -5
Given the times this happened in, where Clear Sky and his cats are attacking on whim, it makes sense he would act first think later.
He didn't know if River and Night were with the mountain cats. The mountain cats made things very difficult and hostile for the cats already living there.
So I feel like he was justified. Because if Night just so happened to be horrible, his mate would've died. The fact that he is at least remorseful and makes up for it is enough to say that he's not a horrible cat.
Just one in unfortunate circumstances thanks to Clear Sky and the rest of the tribe cats.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 25, 2024 17:13:39 GMT -5
With 7 votes for Justified and 7 votes for Unjustified, Casper's judgment is Undecided. Next one is a throwaway follow-up to the Yellowfang one about Squirrelflight's kits: Feathertail: In Leafpool’s Wish, Leafpool is pregnant with Crowfeather’s kits. On separate occasions, Yellowfang and Feathertail ask Squirrelflight to raise the kits. This request requires Squirrelflight to lie to her mate, Brambleclaw, about being their father. Squirrelflight initially refuses Yellowfang’s request for this reason, but with further pressure from Feathertail, she agrees. Was Feathertail justified in supporting Yellowfang and asking Squirrelflight to raise Leafpool’s kits? Yellowfang and Feathertail's requests are provided below. Yellowfang: Feathertail:
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jun 25, 2024 17:50:01 GMT -5
Not justified.
I get that Feathertail was also concerned for the well being of the kits, but pressuring Squirrelflight to raise them wasn't the greatest way to do it.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 26, 2024 2:14:47 GMT -5
Unjustified.
Squirrelflight shouldn't have been pressured, and then lied to, to raise kits that weren't hers. I think without StarClan manipulating her;she would have raised those kits in the end, because she knew the kind of life they'd have if she didn't.
They really didn't need to go that far, especially lying to her about her fertility. It was all sorts of messed up bullshit
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Jun 26, 2024 6:32:22 GMT -5
I feel like Feathertail and Yellowfang should be lumped together; they're basically gaslighting Squirrelflight into taking the kits... no matter how you look at it, they're both unjustified.
I have multiple things to say about Yellowfang's exchange in particular, but I'll refrain...
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 26, 2024 9:05:19 GMT -5
I feel like Feathertail and Yellowfang should be lumped together; they're basically gaslighting Squirrelflight into taking the kits... no matter how you look at it, they're both unjustified. I have multiple things to say about Yellowfang's exchange in particular, but I'll refrain... Yeah they should be lumped together, but I didn't think of it back when I did Yellowfang's part.
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Post by Woofzie on Jun 26, 2024 15:42:21 GMT -5
Looking back, it was really obvious that Yellowfang was lying to Squirrelflight about being barren lol. But yeah, ofc unjustified. I really want to know the arguments of those who voted justified, just curious.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 27, 2024 18:31:11 GMT -5
With 3 votes for Justified and 14 votes for Unjustified, Feathertail is Unjustified! Next scenario: Moth Flight: In Moth Flight’s Vision, Moth Flight has kits with Micah and, throughout the book, she struggles to juggle her medicine cat duties with her duties as a mother. She worries about her kits constantly, which interferes with her ability to work at times, and she fears that her kits are neglected. In the end, she decides that medicine cats should not be allowed to have kits, and StarClan supports her. She sends her four kits to four of the Clans, one each, splitting them up. Was Moth Flight justified in creating the rule that medicine cats cannot have kits? The following scenes consist of: an example of Moth Flight's struggles, her telling the other medicine cats that they cannot have mates or kits, and StarClan's approval of her new rule. Struggling with kits: Moth Flight and the other medicine cats: StarClan's approval:
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jun 27, 2024 19:09:47 GMT -5
I'm a total moth flight defender but also she was unjustified. Hope that helps <3
For a lengthier explanation:
First off I like seeing moth flight debates where starclan's pressure and manipulation are acknowledged. The fandom I think likes to ignore that StarClan not only agreed with but actively pushed the idea of the medcat code and that Moth Flight, whatever cruelty she has done, was also a victim of their manipulation. it's present both here and all the way back when she discovers the moonstone and in a few other significant spots too.
But even with that, it's still true that her law has only really caused needless tragedy and pain, some of which Moth Flight caused directly herself, not even indirectly through the law. I still stand by saying that she's more sympathetic and complex than the fandom likes to say she is, but she was wrong.
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jun 27, 2024 20:32:55 GMT -5
She really wasn't. Just because Moth Flight can't handle her duties with her kits, doesn't mean other cats can't handle it. Leafpool is solid proof that medicine cats can do their job while having kits.
So unjustified.
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Post by asrise on Jun 27, 2024 21:34:44 GMT -5
Unjustified.
Most of the problems that Yellowfang and Leafpool had with their kits were caused by the fact that they had to keep them a secret, not that kits were dividing their attention. Moth Flight's situation was special, and it was specifically written to justify that rule, ignoring the fact that the circumstances just aren't the same for the cats who actually did break the rule later down the line. Moth Flight's justification only makes the rule seem more detached from the reality that Leafpool and Yellowfang went through.
However, I also don't think that Moth Flight takes all the blame, especially after rereading the passage StarClan's acceptance of the rule. It's quite clearly them who are pushing it, and using Moth Flight's special situation as justification. The part where Quiet Rain, Half Moon and Gray Wing are pretty much telling Acorn Fur that she's wrong for living her life and they know better about her own situation so she should just submit is possibly the most aggravating passage in all of WC for me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 27, 2024 23:04:55 GMT -5
At the time it was justified. But I think now it can be adjusted, because it's obvious that back then things were different compared to current times. On the other hand... I still don't think Medicine Cats should have kits unless it's after having a fully-trained apprentice. I feel like it just causes more trouble than it worth either way.
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on Jun 28, 2024 7:11:58 GMT -5
At the time it was justified. But I think now it can be adjusted, because it's obvious that back then things were different compared to current times. On the other hand... I still don't think Medicine Cats should have kits unless it's after having a fully-trained apprentice. I feel like it just causes more trouble than it worth either way. Agreed on the apprentice thing, but if there is a permaqueen or other nursing queen it can help as well.
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Jun 28, 2024 7:31:12 GMT -5
IMO, Moth Flight gives off "I couldn't multitask so I'm going to assume no one else can either/punish everyone else for my shortcomings" vibes. And Starclan ran with it?
I will never agree with her or Starclan's reasoning. If it was multiple med cats being unable to do their jobs while having kits(during DOTC), I could understand. But as far as we know, it was only her.
Unjustified.
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Post by dandelions on Jun 28, 2024 15:18:57 GMT -5
I actually completely forgot it was Half Moon in that last passage and not Micah again. Oops.
I could write a 5 paragraph essay on how badly this book fails to justify the medicine cat code. But my main issues are that Moth Flight's issues with her kits feel mostly tied to her personal experiences, and maybe some factors of the clan structure in an era before multiple med cats per clan was commonplace. Despite that, we're supposed to believe Moth Flight's experience is universal for all time. Even during its own time, the logic is inconsistent--medicine cats can't balance their clan duties and a family, but the same doesn't apply to leaders? Mates and kits are the only relationships that could present a conflict of interests? The scene with Slate feels like it's trying to argue that by dividing her attention between her duties and kits, Moth Flight isn't fully committed to either, but their chosen avenue to illustrate this is... a clearly ill cat having trouble babysitting? And again, in the modern clans, I feel like parental leave would be feasible if there was another med cat.
But that's about whether the code is justified, and the prompt was Moth Flight. I can sympathize with her, she was in difficult circumstances and believed she was doing the best thing at no small personal expense. And StarClan does tell her she's right, so she can't be singularly blamed here. But I can't say she was justified either. These were her ideas, in the shown passage she seems to present them to Acorn Fur as demands before she has the StarClan seal of approval. The narrative doesn't want her to be unjustified, but it fails to support that, so unjustified it is. I honestly wished they'd leaned into making her tragically misguided, independently implementing this code because she believed wholeheartedly it was a solution but only causing more heartache with it.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jun 28, 2024 17:02:21 GMT -5
Neither. She wasn't justified or unjustified. She didn't do anything inherently wrong, and she was doing what she thought was best for future medicine-cathood, even if it really wasn't a law that should've been put in place at all. Although I understand why she decided to make that rule.
I have a certain bias towards Moth Flight though (I actually like her a lot) so probably should take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 29, 2024 0:12:49 GMT -5
When you look at it, it is kinda disgusting how StarClan used Moth Flight... Since we have a confirmation she had ADHD, and also was suffering from trauma and mourning too, she was especially vulnerable when StarClan pretty much told her what she was doing was right. I just... didn't like that she was used as their reasoning for this particular code. It also irks me that she didn't have a better support system when she was dealing with so much already (I feel like some seem to forget how terrible Windstar was toward her). She was clearly in need of help, and putting all that responsibility on her was ridiculous...
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Post by ombredecorbeau2003 on Jun 29, 2024 13:46:26 GMT -5
I hope the medicine cat code is abolished in Changing Skies.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jun 29, 2024 17:32:14 GMT -5
With 8 votes for Justified and 19 votes for Unjustified, Moth Flight is Unjustified! Next scenario: Jagged Peak: In The Blazing Star, Sparrow Fur goes to Clear Sky’s camp to find Tom, her father. There, she meets One Eye instead, and he severely injures her and kills Tom when he attempts to defend her. Gray Wing finds out that Jagged Peak had given Sparrow Fur permission to go and he is outraged. After Clear Sky reports the incident, Gray Wing snaps at Jagged Peak, telling him that he does not deserve to be a father. This results in a fight between the two brothers. Was Jagged Peak justified in allowing Sparrow Fur to search out her father? The following scenes consist of: Gray Wing's discovery, Gray Wing snapping at Jagged Peak, and Owl Eyes admitting that the kits wanted to know Tom. Gray Wing's discovery: Gray Wing snapping at Jagged Peak: Owl Eyes admitting that the kits wanted to know Tom:
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jun 29, 2024 18:35:34 GMT -5
classic gray wing piece of shit moment
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