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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 12, 2024 13:32:23 GMT -5
They would have thrown her and her kits out regardless. I think it needs to be reminded that Ravenwing is the one who supposedly received an omen as a sign that the kits shouldn't be in ThunderClan. And then jumped to conclusions that their father was Appledusk, although Mapleshade never confirmed that either. Ravenwing ran back to tell Oakstar, to which he put her on trial in front of everyone and demanded to know the truth. Frecklewish even defended her at one point, and when they confirmed that Birchface wasn't the father, that's when they all looked to Mapleshade about who the real father is. It wasn't until AFTER it was revealed to be Appledusk that Frecklewish attacked Mapleshade in front of her children, going for her face, until she was dragged off. Mapleshade said that the father of her kits shouldn't matter, and she's right, she was very straight forward about wanting to raise her kits as ThunderClan cats even in that moment. But Oakstar refused that, and then used the omen as a means of justification to throw her AND her kits out when Mapleshade asked for leniency, as a Queen has the right to. Oakstar even goes as far as to asking Mapleshade why'd it have to be him, pretty much confirming if it was any other tom's kits, he wouldn't have done what he did. Or at least would have been way less harsh about the punishment. A few points I would like to make: While Mapleshade was going to tell the truth eventually, she basically allowed Frecklewish to basically weaponize the kits against Appledusk. She basically flat out told Frecklewish to tell Appledusk her kits were born at the gathering- something that confused Frecklewish at first but realised it gave her ammunition against him to brag about her brother still being alive even though Mapleshade wanted him to know for a completely different reason. So, take out Ravenwing out of the river scene and you have to look at the alternatives. Would her kits keep quiet about going to play in the river when kits aren't supposed to be out of camp? Would Riverclan have said something at the next gathering or patrol meetup? This is why I mentioned the short sightedness because taking her kits to the river could have still blown up in her face. Yes, it was wrong of Oakstar and Frecklewish to weaponise the kits but Mapleshade is equally guilty for allowing it to happen in the first place by giving them false hope. Just some general replies: She told them to say that instead of trying to use the kits for much worse, and also so they don't suspect anything. The alternative option was them raising the kits to try and get revenge on Appledusk. Leaders showing off their clans having healthy kits is nothing new, and they've always made it clear that it's a sign of strength. So it's not unusual here either. So she didn't allow anything. Her allowing them to weaponize her kits would have been if she went along with their initial plan, which she flat out protested against. If the kits were playing in the river or not, what difference would it have made? Ravenwing based his decision on the omen in the end and interpreted it as a bad sign. Even if the kits weren't in the river, the omen would have happened, and it would have led to them being put on trial regardless. Even if you did take Ravenwing out of the mix, again, what's a big problem about a mother taking her kits for a walk, and they happened to go near the river. ThunderClan cats aren't allergic to water, they patrol the river side cause their boarders are near it. And just because an elder made offhand comments about the kits, it wouldn't hold as much weight as a literal medicine cat's word. RiverClan could have chose to say something about it if they wanted to, but this is all "what if" territory. You could easily say, what if RiverClan doesn't say anything about it at the next gathering. See what I mean? I'm saying things based on what did happened and the determining factors of the situation: Ravenwing's Omen was used as justification to kick Mapleshade AND her kits out. And because of Appledusk being their father period, she was already given and unfair trial and treated with no leniency. As a side general note: One could also easily say that Frecklewish easily used those kits as much as Mapleshade lied by omission. Frecklewish was the one who desperately pushed the idea in the first place, and used the kits as coping mechanism. Yet the moment she found out who their father actually was (not it being Birchface), suddenly they became "creatures", and basically did the warrior cat version of dehumanization. She supposedly went from loving those kits, to despising them and calling for their exile. And when they were drowning in the river, she turned a blind eye and walked away. In my opinion, it's clear to me how she was already using those kits. |
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 12, 2024 17:14:56 GMT -5
With 6 votes for Justified and 14 votes for Unjustified, Mapleshade was Unjustified!
Next scenario:
Lionblaze: In Darkness Within, Lionblaze attacks Ashfur in the ShadowClan camp in a rage, believing that killing him may be the answer to getting Bramblestar back and that Ashfur deserves to die for all of his past crimes. Tigerstar reprimands him for this and sends him home after Shadowsight defends Ashfur. Was Lionblaze justified in attacking Ashfur?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 12, 2024 19:40:39 GMT -5
Yes, yes he was. Screw Ashfur
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 12, 2024 23:11:26 GMT -5
Understandable, yeah. Justified, I'm not so sure. Lionblaze was thinking with his heart and not his head, and doing his own thing out of rage instead of carefully considering all possibilities and what is actually best for everyone involved, including his family. It's not to say there's no legit argument at all to potentially executing Bramblestar in the name of saving everyone from Ashfur, but Lionblaze's way of handling it was not justified, imo.
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Post by valleylight on May 13, 2024 11:24:49 GMT -5
It’s absolutely understandable, when Ashfur goaded him into attacking. Ashfur stole the body of Lionblaze’s father figure, tormented his mother figure, terrorized his Clan, banished him and his kin, and tore his family apart once again by pushing his kits Flywhisker and Snaptooth away from ThunderClan. And that’s on top of all the abuse Lionblaze and his kin suffered at Ashfur’s claws in life.
But that doesn’t justify his becoming judge, jury, and executioner, when the Clans all agreed to wait and try to find a way to restore Bramblestar to his body. Lionblaze is undermining his leader’s wishes, jeopardizing Bramblestar’s life, attacking a cat who’s under another Clan’s protection, and even dragging his grandkit Thriftear into it all when she clearly feels uncomfortable with doing so and pressured into turning a blind eye. He’s attacking a pinned-in prisoner in custody, trying to claw him into compliance. And when Ashfur won’t comply, he’s ready to take his life, consequences be darned.
Lionblaze himself admits it was wrong, and feels ashamed of allowing his anger to dictate his actions when he’s meant to set an example as ThunderClan’s deputy. It’s part of why he realizes he isn’t cut out for the role in later books.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 13, 2024 17:07:03 GMT -5
With 15 votes for Justified and 8 votes for Unjustified, Lionblaze is Justified! Didn't expect that turnaround.
Next scenario:
Leopardfur: In Leopardstar’s Honor, Leopardfur’s patrol is confronted by ThunderClan cats at Sunningrocks. Redtail provokes her, and despite Whitefang’s warnings, she attacks him, causing a fight to erupt. The battle leads to the deaths of Whitefang and Sunfish. Was Leopardfur justified in starting the battle?
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Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 14, 2024 4:41:08 GMT -5
With 15 votes for Justified and 8 votes for Unjustified, Lionblaze is Justified! Didn't expect that turnaround. Next scenario: Leopardfur: In Leopardstar’s Honor, Leopardfur’s patrol is confronted by ThunderClan cats at Sunningrocks. Redtail provokes her, and despite Whitefang’s warnings, she attacks him, causing a fight to erupt. The battle leads to the deaths of Whitefang and Sunfish. Was Leopardfur justified in starting the battle? StarClan, no! I love my Leopardfur but she wasn't justified for this one. Cats around her know Redtail was the provoking type. Unfortunately, despite being warned, she gets in her feelings and attacks him. Attacking people out of your emotions is understandable, but not justified. ^^ |
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 14, 2024 17:31:16 GMT -5
With 2 votes for Justified and 23 votes for Unjustified, Leopardfur is Unjustified!
Next scenario:
Onestar: In Thunder and Shadow, ShadowClan asks Onestar for permission to search his territory for an herb that they need to cure a new illness. StarClan has told Puddleshine which herb he needs. Onestar, angry with ShadowClan over the presence of Darktail’s Kin, refuses to allow them to retrieve the herb. Was Onestar justified in barring ShadowClan from gathering the herb?
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Post by Sunleap24973 on May 14, 2024 17:36:50 GMT -5
Even though I'm a Onestar defender he was definetly in the wrong here. Even if ShadowClan was harboring Darktail the sick clanmates were innocent.
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Post by snowheart1 on May 14, 2024 17:43:46 GMT -5
Absolutely not!
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Post by stupidflower on May 14, 2024 22:31:36 GMT -5
Onestar is never justified. This is his most egregious act and what made me start actively hating him.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 14, 2024 23:58:13 GMT -5
Ok, you have a point there... Leafpool definitely would've ran away with Crowfeather. But she would've come back quicker, because shes so concerned about her medicine cat duties. Cinderpelt just gave her a reason to abandon them though. If it weren't for Midnight, she wouldn't have come back and Thunderclan would be... uhh... (insert picture of crowfood) The only thing the argument between them changed was her running away sooner, but yeah, it would have happened regardless. However, she wasn't going to come back sooner, period. Her thought process was "The Clan has Cinderpelt, so they'll be fine." so she wasn't going to come back at all without Midnight interfering. Didn't help that even after the whole situation, Crowfeather still wanted to leave with her, and she refused because Cinderpelt died, and she was the only remaining medicine cat at that point. In a scenario where Midnight doesn't show up, and finds them coincidently to send the message back faster, Leafpool and Crowfeather were ready to abandon their clans. And since Cinderpelt knew she was going to die soon, ThunderClan would have been without a medicine cat, for who knows how long. Even worse, it would have been after a brutal attack. I get Cinderpelt blowing her lid after multiple attempts to get Leafpool to focus can seem like much, but people have to remember she was also doing that on borrowed time, of course she was desperate. And despite that she still blamed herself in the end, even in her last moments. I understand Cinderpelt completely, and I don't disagree with any of this - I'm just a bit of nitpicky person when it comes to word choice. If the question had asked, "Is Cinderpelt understandable?" I would say yes. I don't hate Cinderpelt, I understand her perfectly, and I certainly don't hold it against her even slightly, but since it asked if it was JUSTIFIED, despite my sympathy I couldn't say it was just. Understandable and not representative of Cinderpelt is as a whole, at all, but not justified, in not how I define justice and objectively what the best thing to do in that situation. |
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 15, 2024 17:32:26 GMT -5
With 0 votes for Justified and 25 votes for Unjustified, Onestar is Unjustified!
Next scenario:
Firestar, Graystripe, Ravenpaw: In The Darkest Hour, Firestar, Graystripe, and Ravenpaw trespass on RiverClan territory to check on Graystripe’s kits. There, they discover that RiverClan’s half-Clan members are being held as prisoners and witness the killing of Stonefur. Following Stonefur’s execution, the three rescue Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw, and take them to stay with ThunderClan. Were they justified in rescuing the prisoners?
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Post by moongloweevee on May 15, 2024 17:39:53 GMT -5
Absolutely justified. No one would have been happy if they just left without freeing Mistystar, Stormpaw, and Featherpaw who would have 100% been murdered because they had no control who their parents were.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 15, 2024 21:10:43 GMT -5
Why is this even a question, LOL of course they were justified. You could argue that technically the only reason they checked
in was on a hunch (but a pretty good and correct one) But you can argue that since you have to protect and help all kits
they were obligated to check in on Graystripe's children.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 16, 2024 8:05:26 GMT -5
Why is this even a question, LOL of course they were justified. You could argue that technically the only reason they checked in was on a hunch (but a pretty good and correct one) But you can argue that since you have to protect and help all kits they were obligated to check in on Graystripe's children. Lol I had no time so I just wrote the first thing that came to mind |
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 16, 2024 17:48:02 GMT -5
With 21 votes for Justified and 0 votes for Unjustified, Firestar, Graystripe, and Ravenpaw are Justified! No surprise there. There won't be an update tomorrow. I really need a mental health break from everything for a day. Poll will run until 5/18 at 5:00pm. Next scenario: Crookedstar: In Into the Wild, Crookedstar agrees to allow ShadowClan to hunt on their land in order to avoid potentially deadly conflict with their power-hungry rivals. Crookedstar explains that, with the river as their main source of prey, they can afford to share some of their hunting grounds rather than engage in bloody battles. Was he justified in this decision? (credit to Saint Ambrosef) |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 16, 2024 21:07:57 GMT -5
Imo, unjustified. I get that he wanted to avoid conflict, but it was frankly the coward's way out and effectively kicking the tin can down the road. He avoided immediate battle, but at what cost? All it really did was show ShadowClan that RiverClan would allow pretty much anything in the name of preserving "peace" if you threatened them enough, and giving ground only empowered ShadowClan further in antagonizing all the clans. Power-hungry dictators never stop at "sharing" -- soon they're gonna be back and asking for more. And more. And push you to the limit until you either have to fight or are at such a disadvantaged state that you can't win.
Not to mention it broke the warrior code. Even his own clanmates were outraged that Crookedstar chose to share territory than to let his warriors fight.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 18, 2024 0:55:43 GMT -5
With 21 votes for Justified and 0 votes for Unjustified, Firestar, Graystripe, and Ravenpaw are Justified! No surprise there. There won't be an update tomorrow. I really need a mental health break from everything for a day. Poll will run until 5/18 at 5:00pm. Next scenario: Crookedstar: In Into the Wild, Crookedstar agrees to allow ShadowClan to hunt on their land in order to avoid potentially deadly conflict with their power-hungry rivals. Crookedstar explains that, with the river as their main source of prey, they can afford to share some of their hunting grounds rather than engage in bloody battles. Was he justified in this decision? (credit to Saint Ambrosef ) I don't think it's unjustified. Brokenstar had just exiled a whole clan...it was a controversial decision but it wasn't unjustified. He was thinking about his cats and made his call. |
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 18, 2024 16:03:52 GMT -5
With 12 votes for Justified and 6 votes for Unjustified, Crookedstar is Justified!
Next scenario:
Smoky: In Thunder, Smoky takes care of Frostpaw after Splashtail’s murder attempt. He offers to get the horseplace Twoleg to heal her, but she refuses, terrified. Against her wishes, Smoky brings the Twoleg to her anyway, and the Twoleg helps and spays Frostpaw. Was Smoky justified to get the Twoleg to help Frostpaw, even though she told him not to?
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Post by tumblepaw on May 18, 2024 18:25:55 GMT -5
Smoky was justified. The cats couldn’t keep her wound closed or clean, and it kept reopening. That’s why she had to get stitches. She would have bled out without them. I say this as a former vet tech. She would have died without veterinary help.
His choices were let her die due to them not being able to treat her or save her but with the possibility of her being spayed. He chose the one that kept her alive.
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Post by Purdyisbestboi on May 18, 2024 23:23:03 GMT -5
He’s definitely justified.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 19, 2024 1:48:00 GMT -5
Justified. Frostpaw would've died otherwise. And tbh, I feel like the fandom humanizes the cats too much to the point where we have to remember that Smoky is literally still, well, a cat.
After Frostpaw apparently gets spayed, he's mentioned as looking unworried about her new wound and that it's happened to a lot of she-cats before, but considering all three of the other she-cats he himself has lived with had all had kits before, it's possible he just genuinely doesn't know what that means; even Coriander—who'd lived at the horseplace for seasons—died giving birth to his kits as recently as TBC (earlier in the year in-universe). Never mind that the Cutter is already barely mentioned in the series as is, I'm surprised they at least implied it at all.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 19, 2024 1:53:17 GMT -5
Justified, he had no other methods of keeping her alive
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 19, 2024 16:15:06 GMT -5
With 20 votes for Justified and 2 votes for Unjustified, Smoky is Justified! For this scenario, rather than split it up over two days, I've changed things up a little and broken it up into two parts, shared by a single plot point, for people to vote on. You may vote once on each part. Nightstar and Crookedstar: In Leopardstar’s Honor, Nightstar and Crookedstar form an alliance and use it to do two main things. - They use it to hunt on WindClan’s territory during their absence and potentially stand against ThunderClan if they interfere, thus solving the issue of ShadowClan hunting on RiverClan territory and keeping the two Clans well-fed. This causes three WindClan stragglers to be chased out by both Clans. Were Nightstar and Crookedstar justified in working together to hunt on WindClan’s territory and defend it from WindClan’s return and from ThunderClan’s interference?
- They use it to attack WindClan when they falsely believe that WindClan and ThunderClan are plotting against them, and for the purpose of maintaining access to extra prey. This plan fails when ThunderClan is warned in time to help WindClan. Were Nightstar and Crookedstar justified in using their alliance to attempt to drive WindClan out a second time and maintain access to WindClan’s territory?
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 20, 2024 17:01:11 GMT -5
Nightstar and Crookedstar [Part A]: With 1 vote for Justified and 16 votes for Unjustified, they are Unjustified!
Nightstar and Crookedstar [Part B]: With 0 votes for Justified and 17 votes for Unjustified, they are Unjustified!
Next scenario:
Tom: In The First Battle, Tom asks to meet his kits, but Turtle Tail refuses. He ends up stealing the kits and taking them back to his Twoleg nest, believing that they should be raised as kittypets and that they belong with him. This leads to Turtle Tail’s death when she searches for her kits. Was Tom justified in taking the kits?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 20, 2024 17:22:53 GMT -5
Honestly, this scenario is interesting.
I don't think Turtle Tail was justified in taking their kits away and just leaving (I don't blame her considering how Tom turned out after).
However, I don't think Tom was justified in stealing the kits back, even if he did have a right to see his own children.
It's kinda messy. But considering the aftermath, I'll say unjustified, because the question is more so toward the method of him taking the kits.
Personally, I'm not a fan of partners taking their kits without the other's permission or even acknowledgment, it's one of the reasons Billy x Leaf and Billystorm, left a terrible impression imo.
I will say it is ironic though, because in the end one of his kits still end up joining him in Clear Sky's camp because she wanted to get to know him more anyways. And he then later dies for that kit, the irony.
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Post by stupidflower on May 20, 2024 18:02:50 GMT -5
Honestly, this scenario is interesting. I don't think Turtle Tail was justified in taking their kits away and just leaving (I don't blame her considering how Tom turned out after). However, I don't think Tom was justified in stealing the kits back, even if he did have a right to see his own children. It's kinda messy. But considering the aftermath, I'll say unjustified, because the question is more so toward the method of him taking the kits. Personally, I'm not a fan of partners taking their kits without the other's permission or even acknowledgment, it's one of the reasons Billy x Leaf and Billystorm, left a terrible impression imo. I will say it is ironic though, because in the end one of his kits still end up joining him in Clear Sky's camp because she wanted to get to know him more anyways. And he then later dies for that kit, the irony. I actually think that Turtle Tail was completely justified in leaving with the kits. She brought them away because her kits would have been taken by the Twolegs anyway, and she wanted to stay with them. She mentions that Tom was specifically not interested in the kits at all, and didn’t even mention that he knew the kits would be taken away. He didn’t care about the kits, at least not while they were born. His abuse comes later it seems, but given how fearful Turtle Tail is when they meet for the first time after she left, its likely he wasn’t very good to her, and if that is the case and she had any reason to feel in fear for her kits, she was absolutely justified in taking them. I have a similar thought with Billystorm, to a less extreme degree. Billystorm was scared for the lives of his children and merely suggested it to his kits, and never actually made a concrete plan to take them. He 100% would have consulted Leafstar about it before actually acting on it, given how readily he accepts Leafstar’s rejection of the idea. And again, he’s doing it for the safety of his kits. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 20, 2024 21:41:03 GMT -5
Honestly, this scenario is interesting. I don't think Turtle Tail was justified in taking their kits away and just leaving (I don't blame her considering how Tom turned out after). However, I don't think Tom was justified in stealing the kits back, even if he did have a right to see his own children. It's kinda messy. But considering the aftermath, I'll say unjustified, because the question is more so toward the method of him taking the kits. Personally, I'm not a fan of partners taking their kits without the other's permission or even acknowledgment, it's one of the reasons Billy x Leaf and Billystorm, left a terrible impression imo. I will say it is ironic though, because in the end one of his kits still end up joining him in Clear Sky's camp because she wanted to get to know him more anyways. And he then later dies for that kit, the irony. I actually think that Turtle Tail was completely justified in leaving with the kits. She brought them away because her kits would have been taken by the Twolegs anyway, and she wanted to stay with them. She mentions that Tom was specifically not interested in the kits at all, and didn’t even mention that he knew the kits would be taken away. He didn’t care about the kits, at least not while they were born. His abuse comes later it seems, but given how fearful Turtle Tail is when they meet for the first time after she left, its likely he wasn’t very good to her, and if that is the case and she had any reason to feel in fear for her kits, she was absolutely justified in taking them. I have a similar thought with Billystorm, to a less extreme degree. Billystorm was scared for the lives of his children and merely suggested it to his kits, and never actually made a concrete plan to take them. He 100% would have consulted Leafstar about it before actually acting on it, given how readily he accepts Leafstar’s rejection of the idea. And again, he’s doing it for the safety of his kits. I don't know, I suppose for me, it's just a strange thing to do. Turtle express that prior to the kit situation, her and Tom were fine. Like you said, the abuse didn't come until after, so obviously she dodged a bullet there. But prior, I just don't think it was justifiable in taking the kits with out his knowledge at all, regardless of her interpretation of his interest or not. (Also, wasn't it said he was happy about the kits being a thing, or am I mistaken?). She was justifiable in taking the kits because of the twolegs, yes, but I do think it's a bit off putting to not at least tell their father or consult with them. If she did, and he didn't care, then that's a different case. I'll have to go back and read it. As for the Billy and Leaf situation, even if he thinks it's for the safety of their kits, it was still a weird thing to do behind Leafstar's back. He was basically indoctrinating their kits into kittypet life, and knew what he was doing was wrong, because it shows well enough when he was caught and Leafstar was furious enough with him to break things off for a bit. His actions were selfish, imo, and broke the trust between him and Leaf, so it left a bad taste in my mouth since when it came to their relationship. But again, that's my feelings on that matter. I think it's a bit iffy when one parent doesn't at least consult the other parent about decisions when it comes to their children, unless the other parent is awful prior. Like to me, Golden keeping her kits from Tiger after his exile, was justifiable because of him being outed for what he did. |
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Ill get answers up tmmr, on saturday I'm leaving on a camping trip tho cri XD rip my activness.
(((