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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 11, 2024 18:42:58 GMT -5
Next scenario is up!
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 11, 2024 19:00:58 GMT -5
In the future, could you please include the scenarios in your updates so that it's not just in the very first post of this thread? In any case, no, he wasn't justified, especially considering how quickly and cruelly he did it.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 11, 2024 19:30:00 GMT -5
In the future, could you please include the scenarios in your updates so that it's not just in the very first post of this thread? In any case, no, he wasn't justified, especially considering how quickly and cruelly he did it. Sure, I can do that.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 12, 2024 11:26:53 GMT -5
Rowanstar is justified imo, he did what was best for the clans, and they were just kits who barely knew each other weren't they? It's a doing what's best for everyone in the end, if one clan got the kits over the other, they might feel slighted and even start a war over it. What Rowanstar decided was the most logical, cats from ShadowClan and ThunderClan both found the kits, maybe they could have found some random kittypet or something to take them in, but that would have caused extra risks, sending cats out on the thunderpath, crossing twolegs, etc, it just seems like the best steps to take so I think he was justified
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 12, 2024 13:17:12 GMT -5
Rowanstar is justified imo, he did what was best for the clans, and they were just kits who barely knew each other weren't they? Tbh, this is the part that I don't understand. Later events aside, Twigkit and Violetkit were still consciously aware they were sisters who were suddenly being separated basically right then and there and were later shown missing each other, so I'm not sure if saying "they were just kits who barely knew each other" is entirely fair, either.
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Apr 12, 2024 13:57:18 GMT -5
I think this one's easily unjustified in AND out of universe. Dude insists on taking an orphaned kitten away from her only family mostly bc an apprentice wants him to from what I remember? And he doesn't even treat the kitten well and regrets it basically immediately? And all he really achieves is a show of how easily influenced and spineless yet completely undedicated to seeing his own choices through he is? Lol okay dude sure hope that doesn't backfire on you
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 12, 2024 18:12:47 GMT -5
Locking the poll a bit early because I'm busy and won't get to it otherwise.
With 2 votes for Justified and 14 votes for Unjustified, Rowanstar is Unjustified!
Next scenario: Mudclaw: In Starlight, Mudclaw leads a rebellion against Onewhisker because Tallstar stripped him of his deputy position in favor of Onewhisker. Mudclaw, believing that this is wrong and that Firestar and Brambleclaw are not trustworthy in their reporting, attacks WindClan alongside Hawkfrost in order to usurp Onewhisker. Was Mudclaw justified in leading his rebellion?
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Post by Chicken on Apr 12, 2024 18:28:30 GMT -5
Absolutely justified, Mudclaw believed he was doing what was best for WindClan, he truly believed that Onestar was conspiring with ThunderClan, and he didn't really have much reason to think otherwise, I don't remember, but was he even there when Tallstar named Onestar as his deputy or did he just hear it secondhand? If it's the latter, then it just solidifies that he was justified. Maybe he shouldn't have planned a rebellion against Onestar, but honestly, he could have done much worse and killed Onestar directly, he at least gave him a fair chance this way
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 12, 2024 19:46:59 GMT -5
Unjustified. Mudclaw led an entire coup and usurp Onewhisker (by both real-world and Warriors definitions, Mudclaw was a usurper) simply because his ego was hurt and was willing to let innocent cats die because of it, like Ashfoot (he even says she needs to die lol) and was contemplating letting a fox run rampant in their camp if it meant killing Onewhisker. If he really cared about WindClan, he would have taken Onewhisker up on his deputy offer or try to help out Onewhisker and Ashfoot when he could see them struggling to get used to their new positions. Instead, he mopes and seethes. Onestar sucks, but at the time Tallstar couldn't have possibly known that well-mannered Onewhisker would turn into the arrogant jerk we know him as.
It was a shady switch and at the very least, I'd say he's justified being bitter about it, but trying to usurp and later kill Onewhisker and Ashfoot is too far. In addition, for all his talk of being in WindClan's best interests, he was fine with appointing Hawkfrost of all cats as his deputy and even throws Hawkfrost under the bus when the ruse is revealed. I understand he had thoughts of WindClan being a ThunderClan puppet, but it's pretty clear that it was fueled by his bruised ego rather than a drive for peace like Tallstar wanted.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 12, 2024 21:19:06 GMT -5
Absolutely justified, Mudclaw believed he was doing what was best for WindClan, he truly believed that Onestar was conspiring with ThunderClan, and he didn't really have much reason to think otherwise, I don't remember, but was he even there when Tallstar named Onestar as his deputy or did he just hear it secondhand? If it's the latter, then it just solidifies that he was justified. Maybe he shouldn't have planned a rebellion against Onestar, but honestly, he could have done much worse and killed Onestar directly, he at least gave him a fair chance this way Barkface, Firestar, Brambleclaw, and Onewhisker were all present when Tallstar died. Mudclaw didn't know about Tallstar's decision until Firestar announced it.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 12, 2024 21:21:24 GMT -5
Absolutely justified, Mudclaw believed he was doing what was best for WindClan, he truly believed that Onestar was conspiring with ThunderClan, and he didn't really have much reason to think otherwise, I don't remember, but was he even there when Tallstar named Onestar as his deputy or did he just hear it secondhand? If it's the latter, then it just solidifies that he was justified. Maybe he shouldn't have planned a rebellion against Onestar, but honestly, he could have done much worse and killed Onestar directly, he at least gave him a fair chance this way Barkface, Firestar, Brambleclaw, and Onewhisker were all present when Tallstar died. Mudclaw didn't know about Tallstar's decision until Firestar announced it. Thanks
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 12, 2024 22:26:19 GMT -5
I get being suspicious, but Mudclaw let Hawkfrost pour straight poison down his ear and inflame all his delusions about the situation. Dude was getting ready to appoint a random rival clan warrior (who never had an apprentice) to be his deputy. He believed that Onewhisker, a cat who has never shown a lick of ambition in his life, conspired to steal leadership from him. He chose to destabilize his entire clan and throw them into civil war over the matter, which made them far more vulnerable than Onestar being friendly with Firestar ever would.
I know the common argument is "well Onestar ended up being a bad leader blah blah", but Mudclaw had no legitimate basis to believe that at the time. He was going off entirely what Hawkfrost was feeding him, which is the idea that Onestar's leadership was somehow orchestrated by Firestar in order to control WindClan. It wasn't about the quality of Onestar's character. It was about his irrational loathing for Firestar as a successful rival clan leader (and lbr, a kittypet), Mudclaw's wounded ambition, and his egotistical belief that he was the only cat who could solve WindClan's problems.
Also, if Mudclaw was so hesitant to believe that Tallstar truly didn't strip his deputyship just before death, then he could have suggested that Onewhisker hold off receiving nine-lives until Barkface could confirm the truth with StarClan. (I know that they hadn't discovered the Moonpool yet, but Onewhisker couldn't receive his nine lives until they found the Moonstone replacement anyways). That's what a level-headed person would suggest. But Mudclaw was never reasonable, and instead decided to jump to mutiny as the answer. Even if his suspicion and offense was rightly placed, his response to the situation was nightmarish and proved Tallstar's point about how Mudclaw would never make a good leader.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 12, 2024 22:47:30 GMT -5
Unjustified, easily. Mudclaw had a right to be suspicious about the whole thing and Hawkfrost's manipulations definitely didn't help, but that can really only excuse so much. His bitterness literally got to the point where he was willing to let a fox attack Onewhisker if it meant getting him out of the way, and that's to say nothing on being desperate enough to side with a cat from a rival Clan and then promise that same cat the position of deputy. Everything he did wasn't for WindClan, but to soothe his own pride.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 13, 2024 7:08:31 GMT -5
I think this is the closest one yet.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 13, 2024 18:10:45 GMT -5
With 12 votes for Justified and 12 votes for Unjustified, Mudclaw's judgment is Undecided.
Unexpectedly, Mudclaw's vote was a tie. I decided not to do a tiebreaker vote because I feel that this outcome is pretty representative of the fandom's stance on Mudclaw anyway, even if it is inconclusive. Plus, admittedly, I'd rather just keep moving along.
Next scenario: Pinestar: In Pinestar’s Choice, StarClan--excluding Doestar--pressures Pinestar to kill his only surviving kit, Tigerkit, predicting that he would be a threat in the future. He spends time in Twolegplace to cope, making friends and finding comfort. As time goes on, StarClan continues to send warnings and he witnesses several battles and deaths. He becomes disillusioned with life in ThunderClan and overwhelmed by the demands of StarClan, and he decides to become a kittypet. Was Pinestar justified in leaving his life as Clan leader?
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 13, 2024 18:25:30 GMT -5
Justified I guess. It's his life and he can do as he pleases...but he left behind his mate and sole surviving kit (who was already seemingly important to StarClan) and cheated, albeit unintentionally, Sunstar out of a life. He's allowed to live as he wants and retire to become a kittypet, but he executed it poorly. I know the idea of a leader stepping down wasn't really a thing back at that time (as in the series itself, not in-universe) but since we know it's possible, he should have gone to the Moonstone and done the proper ceremony as opposed to just...up and leaving. Hell, he didn't even plan to say goodbye, let alone announce it, until Lionheart convinced him.
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Post by Chicken on Apr 13, 2024 19:01:51 GMT -5
I think he was justified because he first made sure they were in good hands before ditching, though he probably should have taken the kit who was prophesized to be a danger to the clan, a kit who the medicine cat wanted dead with him, if not for the safety of Tigerkit, but for the safety of the clan
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Apr 14, 2024 0:50:54 GMT -5
leoprdfoot and the kits were barely surviving from birth and he just dips 😭😭 he wasn't wrong in theory but he should've done it way later like that was not the best time
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Apr 14, 2024 1:32:26 GMT -5
Unjustified. It was never confirmed that StarClan was actually the one sending him visions of him having to kill Tigerkit.
Doestar even came and told him, a StarClan cat at that, that he needed to be a father and guide Tigerkit so he didn't become the genocidal maniac in later arcs.
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Post by User33 on Apr 14, 2024 9:16:28 GMT -5
Justified. Tigerkit was doomed the moment Goosefeather saw his future. By then Pinestar sticking around would've been a lost cause and quite honestly in reality a waste of pages.
Now if Pinestar stuck around and Goosefeather never once saw Tigerkit's future I do believe things would've turned out differently.
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Post by 🎃👻 Slightdapple 👻🎃 on Apr 14, 2024 12:07:37 GMT -5
Unjustified. Doestar literally told him that he had to be a feather to Tigerkit and then he just... left.
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Post by lightfur on Apr 14, 2024 17:33:31 GMT -5
One one hand he left behind his mate and dying daughters (they were actually still alive when he left), and was planning to leave without telling anyone before Lionpaw forced him to.
On the other hand I can't blame him for wanting to leave. He was being told to kill his own son and wanting to retire was understandable, especially to a place he knew he would be safe. However he still left Tigerkit behind when he was told that he had to raise him right or he would destroy ThunderClan. And the fact that he was going to leave without a word is enough for me to call him unjustified.
There there's the thing with Sunstar, but I think that has more to do with the fact that the concept of leaders giving up their lives wasn't a thing yet, so I'm not going to put that against Pinestar at all.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 14, 2024 18:04:25 GMT -5
With 8 votes for Justified and 12 votes for Unjustified, Pinestar is Unjustified!
Next scenario is up: Hollyleaf: In Sunrise, Hollyleaf murders Ashfur to keep him quiet about the Three’s heritage. However, she then reveals the secret herself at the Gathering out of anger and guilt. As a result, Leafpool steps down and Brambleclaw leaves Squirrelflight. Was Hollyleaf justified in revealing the secret?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Apr 15, 2024 0:23:13 GMT -5
Hmm that's a tricky one. While, yes, the truth deserved to come out; I don't agree with her letting the entirety of the Clans know.
Though at that point she was not well upstairs. She snapped under pressure and paid dearly for it.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Apr 15, 2024 3:37:34 GMT -5
Eh, kind of. Ashfur was a bad dude so I'm glad she killed him, but her revealing the secret really went back on what she killed Ashfur for.
I'd say WindClan and ThunderClan deserved to know, but it was nobody else's business
I'll just vote unjustified cause it was mostly bad. I don't blame her for revealing it but the circumstances and who it was revealed to definitely changed things
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Post by moongloweevee on Apr 15, 2024 10:02:18 GMT -5
Going to say unjustified overall as she was slightly justified in killing Ashfur from spilling the beans but went ahead and did it anyway. She then left her brothers to deal with the aftermath.
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Post by Pixie on Apr 15, 2024 10:42:18 GMT -5
Voting unjustified bc it was hypocritical of her to kill somebody to keep a secret and then reveal it herself. She also hurt a lot of others in the process. And this is coming from someone who has Hollyleaf as a favorite. 😭
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Post by minnowfur on Apr 15, 2024 16:02:36 GMT -5
She was wrong but it was a entertaining read lol
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 15, 2024 18:03:55 GMT -5
With 9 votes for Justified and 11 votes for Unjustified, Hollyleaf is Unjustified! This one took an interesting turn. Justified was in the lead for many hours, then it tied, and then Unjustified pulled ahead in the last few hours.
Next scenario: Quiet Rain: In A Forest Divided, Quiet Rain travels with Sun Shadow to find the cats who left the tribe. When they arrive, she is informed about the Great Battle that was caused by her son, Clear Sky, and about all of the cats who died. Enraged, she disowns Clear Sky and refuses to forgive him for his actions, clawing him. Was Quiet Rain justified in her response to Clear Sky’s crimes?
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Post by کیوان on Apr 15, 2024 18:05:13 GMT -5
Dang, I almost got faked out when I saw Quiet Rain. I thought it was about Shadowstar's Life (Quick Water, a name I get confused on often) rather than Forest Divided. Funny how that works.
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