raincloud33
victorian novel version of greencough is brain-fever
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Post by raincloud33 on Nov 29, 2023 19:49:32 GMT -5
I haven't read warriors since Omen of The Stars! I dropped off on reading them at the very last book of that, and I don't think I even got to the ending of... is it called The Last Hope?
However, I did reread some of "Into The Wild" about two years back. And I was... disappointed, as someone who really loved the original series. The characters felt very hollow, but, granted, I didn't get very far into the first book. I am still curious to reread some of the older ones just to see how my perspective has changed now, but I'm uncertain if I will.
However I have an honest question. I feel a lot of users who have been fans for a long time tend to say that the new books are "not as they used to", often recalling back to Firestar's original arc [and sometimes TNP and POT] as the epitome of warriors content, with everything at/after OOTS seen as lesser in overall quality.
As someone looking in [and not reading it], some of the plot choices in recent years [Ex, Ashfur return] are distasteful to me. No offense to those who liked it meant. However, there have also seemed to be other things that felt... I don't know. More- alive? Than my impression of "the Original series". However I have read very little.
TLDR/My question is this. Be honest and think about it. Are characterizations in the newer books - especially interpersonal relationships - better, more convincing, more engagingly written in the newer series? Are the newer books better written at all?
Sometimes I feel newer stories fall prey to being held up to the standards that the original set, to the point that, maybe- if it had been a property not attached to the original- people might not have disliked it.
Do people just like TPB because if the nostalgia factor, or was the writing and characterization better? I ask a lot about characterization because, generally speaking, I like character-focused fiction and I have long felt that warriors characters could do with being a little less flat.
I ask you ignore things such as repetitive plotlines you find annoying [popular examples; forbidden romances, following the lineage of Firestar, that sort of thing] and look only at how the story itself is written and the characters act. I
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raincloud33
victorian novel version of greencough is brain-fever
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Post by raincloud33 on Nov 29, 2023 19:53:53 GMT -5
*below now bellow in the poll title the typos... the typos!!!
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Sunleap
Listen to Seventeen's Super, it's good for your health.
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Post by Sunleap on Nov 29, 2023 20:03:53 GMT -5
I do think the characterization in the recent arcs is growing worse. The quality of the main characters themselves varies for me. There are a couple of main cats I like much better than Firestar but there are some I like a lot less.
I think the problem with warrior characterization, especially lately, is personality. Most recent main cats don't have that many qualities that stand out. Even Firestar imo is a kinda flat character. Though the original series did have Yellowfang and Dustpelt who I think have interesting personalities.
The thing that the og arc does well though is the background characters. In the og arc, every background character is recognizable. Lionheart, Runningwind, Longtail. Even though these cats aren't necessarily in the spotlight all the time I still recognize them. Nowadays there are a lot of background cats that I honestly forget existed.
Another thing I like about the og arc is the deaths. Each death in that arc is designed to affect Firestar in some way. Spottedleaf, Yellowfang, Bluestar. Deaths in the newer series are more for shock value than character growth.
TLDR; Characterization in the original arc is much better than now. However, I do think the plot of the recent arcs has been better than the original. This is coming from a fan who got into Warriors only 3 years ago. I don't have nostalgia for the original series.
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raincloud33
victorian novel version of greencough is brain-fever
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Post by raincloud33 on Nov 29, 2023 20:13:29 GMT -5
Have to agree on Firestar feeling flat- although I would argue that, with the style warriors is written in, it may be trickier to make a main character feel interesting. I tend to feel as if main POV characters, when more... strictly? followed, tend to not be as interesting as the characters surrounding them.
I do agree that the older series characters all felt more purposefully added! It wasn't only their deaths and how they affected the main character [although that is a very good point!], most of the mentioned characters in the first arc had purpose to exist beyond just being a name to fill a space.
However, having made up [for my own entertainment, but nonetheless] a lot of story concepts involving long genealogies- following a family line living within one region- I feel like having a bunch of characters that exist as filler is inevitable. For better or worse. The original warriors series was probably made with more intent, whereas each consecutive one is trying to keep track of the descendants of the original cast "realistically" [however well they do this, up to debate]. When this happens, you end up with characters that would "realistically" be there, but are not "purposefully" placed. I'd keep talking on this more, but my brain has decided it doesn't know how to word what I'm thinking. I do agree that background characters in the later books [even as early as OOTS, which i think is where it because more noticeable] have less purpose to the overall arc.
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Post by Wolfdawn 𖦹 on Nov 30, 2023 9:09:37 GMT -5
as someone who has been a fan for years (i started reading in 2013), i do agree that the older books were written better. i feel like back in TPB, i was always super engaged as to what was happening. i feel like every fight, every hunting description, every death, etc., always had a great effect, you know? reading the newer arcs, i honestly feel the newest book Thunder is the closest to the old writing that we have received in recent years. i still enjoy the new books of course, and the old books always have a special place in my heart.
i agree that it seems in the new books that background characters aren't noteworthy at all which makes me sad! in TPB, we had a good grasp of each background character's personality. i really hope they start doing this again in the newer books. i also feel there are a lot more inconsistencies in the newer books, not that the older arcs didn't have any either.
for my examples for Thunder being close to the older arcs (no spoilers here, dw!):
-we get to see Bramblestar and Squirrelfight's interactions -we get to see some of the other old protagonists actually talk and even achieve something great -one of the main protagonists, Sunbeam, actually gets to develop a relationship with a few background characters -we get to see some background characters shine -a side villain was unpredictable, most of us didn't guess it was this character! (or at least, i didn't suspect the cat) -we get to see two of the main protagonists develop a friendship -we get to see said main protagonists develop
and there's probably a few more im missing, but i seriously feel the new book Thunder is one of the best newer books !
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 30, 2023 9:22:24 GMT -5
the newer books are more slowly paced and the characterization is pretty mid, since a lot of protagonists are continually based on the same tropes the authors have already used previously, and the fact they always split the perspective in each book by three protagonists (as opposed to one) means they all get 1/3 the development that Firestar did in his arc.
it just feels to me like not a lot happens in each book now, like they took a story that would be better fit for three books and stretch it out into six. then they stuff it with filler to make it work. i may be imagining it but the events seem to take place in a shorter amount of time as well (everything happening in a season or two as opposed to like 2years in the first arc).
a lot of th protagonists don’t have clear friendships or other relationships either that impact the story. occasionally two of the protags will share a romantic relationship but that is often the extent with which they meaningfully engage with each other and other characters.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2023 9:22:48 GMT -5
imo, the arcs are hit or miss. avos was fine, very good at some points and lacked proper pacing but it was generally good-ish. the se’s are SUPERRR hit or miss, like we have some arguable fantastic ones like hawkwings journey, bramblestars storm, crowfeathers trial, and riverstars home, and some awful ones like leopardstars honor, tigerhearts shadow, and squirrelflight’s hope.
tbc is arguably the best recent- if not the best arc. very good most of the time and was actually really interesting, the protagonists were all likable too.
asc is,,, fine? i don’t like it but i don’t hate it? it’s ruining many characters for sure though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2023 9:24:05 GMT -5
the newer books are more slowly paced and the characterization is pretty mid, since a lot of protagonists are continually based on the same tropes the authors have already used previously, and the fact they always split the perspective in each book by three protagonists (as opposed to one) means they all get 1/3 the development that Firestar did in his arc. it just feels to me like not a lot happens in each book now, like they took a story that would be better fit for three books and stretch it out into six. then they stuff it with filler to make it work. i may be imagining it but the events seem to take place in a shorter amount of time as well (everything happening in a season or two as opposed to like 2years in the first arc). a lot of th protagonists don’t have clear friendships or other relationships either that impact the story. occasionally two of the protags will share a romantic relationship but that is often the extent with which they meaningfully engage with each other and other characters. couldn’t agree more
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 1:33:29 GMT -5
I love the Broken Code and A Starless Clan, mostly because they have my blorbos as POV characters…
I also really like the New Prophecy. I’m in the minority here but I don’t really like the first arc that much, it’s nostalgia for me and nothing else.
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Aroace
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
“Do you remember…the 21st night of September?”
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Dec 2, 2023 13:41:05 GMT -5
They’ve dropped in quality. I’m not saying they are bad, it’s just everything is so filler. The characters are filler, the books are filler, the plots are filler… they could probably drop half the arcs down to three books instead of six and it would be better. Although I will say the most recent arc (A Starless Clan) has been doing great quality wise.
The characters in the recent arcs barely have any personality though, and there is too many of them. If you asked me what background cat #7’s personality was I probably couldn’t answer. However in the first four arcs (especially the first one) I could tell you every cat in ThunderClan’s personality, even minor characters like Icecloud or One-eye. I do think a lot of people don’t give enough credit to TNP, PoT, and OotS with characters personalities and instead just say the first arc was the only one where everyone had a personality, which just isn’t true. The first arc is the best at it, but the other three aren’t bad at it either. AVoS is where everything goes downhill. So downhill to the point where when I’m writing my own fan fiction on my warriors OCs I’m trying to make sure every cat has a personality and doesn’t end up robotic like the up to date clan cats.
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Post by iceheart on Dec 2, 2023 13:46:06 GMT -5
Absolutely not in a million years. The series right now is the worst it's ever been - although that is debatable, considering AVOS and TBC exist. Everyone is so flat and lifeless, the plots are boring, the bias is excruciating to read about, there are 75+ side characters that I don't know who the hell are. TPB-OOTS was full of life and love and you can tell Vicky/Cherith/Kate really cared about these characters and wanted to tell good stories. I can tell you everything about them. Can't tell you anything about it in this editors' age of Warriors. They only throw out books because it makes money. Vicky did it because she loved them. It's night and day. It's terrible and it's a shame what they've done to a series I used to love so much. And I can assure you that this isn't nostalgia, it's just that those books are better. Better written, well-paced, more compelling characters. I'm pretty sure they're not even trying now. Vicky's Warriors will always be better than whatever Warriors is now, and it's only what I take as canon. Right now, the editors' Warriors is literally published fanfiction that makes money.
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