Rainbow
oatwhisker
riverclan's med!!
Pronouns: it/it's, he/him
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Post by oatwhisker on Nov 21, 2023 23:49:05 GMT -5
i was talking about this on discord, and a few people got angry, because, you know, it's discord. my argument was that it's fine to think of some books as not canon- for me, that's (shudders) squirrelflight's hope and spottedleaf's heart. i thought this was a pretty widely accepted thing, but apparently some people get angry because the erins are god and anything they say must be taken as such. personally, i think it's up to the reader to interpret the books. once the books are published and out into the world, people should be allowed to pick them up and regard them in any fashion they choose.
thoughts?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Nov 22, 2023 0:04:04 GMT -5
I find it plenty acceptable to dislike some books and stories, sure. But I find it hideously disrespectful to outright go "well okay in my head that never happened, to hell with whatever the actual creator said". That's something they created and built up and made.
It's your right to decide whether or not to like it. It's even your right to say whether or not you think it's poorly written; heaven knows I've given the Erins plenty of guff for some of their writing. But actually playing God with somebody else's work and saying "well to me... non-canon" just feels gross and disrespectful as shit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2023 0:04:23 GMT -5
i was talking about this on discord, and a few people got angry, because, you know, it's discord. my argument was that it's fine to think of some books as not canon- for me, that's (shudders) squirrelflight's hope and spottedleaf's heart. i thought this was a pretty widely accepted thing, but apparently some people get angry because the erins are god and anything they say must be taken as such. personally, i think it's up to the reader to interpret the books. once the books are published and out into the world, people should be allowed to pick them up and regard them in any fashion they choose. thoughts? personally- i think it’s fine. speaking as someone who finds it super hypocritical for people to say that the erin’s are gods and all books are canon then they go and ignore statements the erin’s make about the books.
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Post by Katanaheart on Nov 22, 2023 0:10:05 GMT -5
It depends.
Ignoring Spottedleaf’s novella is one thing since we have evidence from BP that she was always interested in medicine so I prefer to think of her having freely chosen the path without any Thistleclaw intervention. (Plus her book is so taboo, it doesn’t get brought up in discussion a majority of the time anyway.)
Now SQH, it is canon. Regardless of how much I wanted to yell at Squirrelflight for her awful decisions and foolishness, it is canon. Plus the book cemented my like of Eaglewing. (And it killed off an important character, aka Leafpool, so SQH can’t just be hand-waved as easily as a novella.)
Speaking of novellas, I also typically ignore the ending of Redtail’s Debt as it just creates a large plot point if taken literally. If Redtail had killed Oakheart, Crookedstar would no doubt have been hankering for ThunderClan’s blood, if that had been the case. (An accident with the rocks falling and killing him is one thing, an enemy warrior and deputy actively breaking the warrior code and murdering a noble and loved warrior, brother, and father like Oakheart is another.)
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Post by User33 on Nov 22, 2023 0:10:35 GMT -5
In my opinion uncanonizing certain stuff is okay as long as you don't tell others that x or y is actually non-canon when in fact it is canon. To you however you don't have to take something as canon as long as you're aware of how in reality it really is since the author made it.
But being honest I don't take anything the Erin hunter writing team says seriously. Nor the previous team that consisted of Vicky, Cherith, Kate, etc because surprise surprise they all have different opinions and despite having a TEAM errors still seep through the broom and make some books that were supposed to be canon end up being viewed as non-canon. I don't view Redtail's debt or Tigerclaw's Fury as canon not because I don't like them but because its impossible for them to be canon in the first place. (If I said anything confusing let me know)
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Post by Quill on Nov 22, 2023 0:50:14 GMT -5
With Warriors, it's kind of impossible not to do this to a certain extent because different canon books conflict with each other. For example, you have to view either The Prophecies Begin or Redtail's Debt as not canon because they directly contradict each other. What you're talking about seems different, though. I guess it's fine for someone to think whatever they want. However, it gets tricky when it comes to discussing things with other fans; I would assume that the standard would be to consider canon books, well, canon in these conversations.
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on Nov 22, 2023 6:04:00 GMT -5
I only see stuff as non-canon if it has a major retcon, like most of Redtails debt
Idk if this counts but also, I won't count certain things characters say/do as canon, like how Sandstorm made that remark about Briarlight in SqH. There is no evidence before this to suggest that Sandstorm is ableist (iirc), so I'm not counting it against her character because it was most likely an author mistake (and I'm pretty sure this has been acknowledged)
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Nov 22, 2023 6:24:38 GMT -5
The books are written as they are, although I personally don't consider some events canon considering the retcons... *cough* Redtail's Debt *cough* I can deny Squirrelflight being leader all I want; doesn't change the fact that- urrrgh she's leader now
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Rainbow
oatwhisker
riverclan's med!!
Pronouns: it/it's, he/him
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Post by oatwhisker on Nov 22, 2023 10:52:14 GMT -5
I didn’t understand the question bc I thought it meant if it was okay for authors to retcon things and to that I say yes bc of the mess that was Redtail’s Debt. However, I do find it silly when people say they don’t consider certain things canon even tho it’s in the text. isnt it up to the reader to interpret the text, though? you can think about it however you want and my point is that the books shouldnt dictate / restrict how you enjoy them, even if you think about them differently than the canon.
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Post by 「Wιитεяичgнт」 on Nov 22, 2023 10:54:36 GMT -5
I say no.
The only exception I see is Redtail's Debt's ending. The fact that it completely ignores the entirety of TPB (specifically FoS) and rewrites the sunningrocks outcome... it's okay to disregard that as non-canon. Lol
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Nov 22, 2023 11:13:26 GMT -5
I say no. The only exception I see is Redtail's Debt's ending. The fact that it completely ignores the entirety of TPB (specifically FoS) and rewrites the sunningrocks outcome... it's okay to disregard that as non-canon. Lol Yeah, I support this and should have mentioned the main exception, which is when the canon accidentally contradicts itself. In that case, just go with whatever came out first or is better established.
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Pixie
credit to poleyworld and pixelart
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Post by Pixie on Nov 22, 2023 11:41:54 GMT -5
I didn’t understand the question bc I thought it meant if it was okay for authors to retcon things and to that I say yes bc of the mess that was Redtail’s Debt. However, I do find it silly when people say they don’t consider certain things canon even tho it’s in the text. isnt it up to the reader to interpret the text, though? you can think about it however you want and my point is that the books shouldnt dictate / restrict how you enjoy them, even if you think about them differently than the canon. I can enjoy media even when there are things in it that I don't like. I'm not going to say that something isn't canon just because I didn't like it. I love Vampire Knight, an animanga, for its gothic atmosphere, vampiric societies, the character Zero, but in an unfortunate plot twist of the series, the protagonist's crush turns out to be her brother and it's played off as being "normal" because of the fact it's what pure blood vampires do. I absolutely hate that, but I still enjoy the series for its other aspects and will rewatch/reread it sometimes. It's one thing if the text contradicts itself ( Redtail's Debt), but another thing if you decide that a text isn't canon when the legitimate author wrote it/said it was. Spottedleaf's Heart is disgusting, but it unfortunately is still a canon novella. It's not just some horrid fanfic. Canon isn't always good and if it does affect how you enjoy the series, then yeah, I suppose it doesn't matter if you want to pretend it didn't happen in-text. It just doesn't change the fact that it happened.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2023 12:11:05 GMT -5
The answer varies for me. As I, along with other people I think, do not consider Spottedleaf's Heart canon, and some other headcanon that I have thrust into the books even if they have been confirmed to not exist. For example, I pretend that RiverClan had a cold and blood-hungry foundation before River Ripple brought peace through leadership and change, but if someone were to ask me what was canon reason they were founded I would tell them said canon reason.
Yes, I think it is fine to uncanonize certain things for yourself personally, but do not tell them what you pretend is canon is actually canon because that is confusing.
(I probably made a mess of things, I think User33 describes it better.)
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 22, 2023 20:14:08 GMT -5
With Warriors, it's kind of impossible not to do this to a certain extent because different canon books conflict with each other. For example, you have to view either The Prophecies Begin or Redtail's Debt as not canon because they directly contradict each other. What you're talking about seems different, though. I guess it's fine for someone to think whatever they want. However, it gets tricky when it comes to discussing things with other fans; I would assume that the standard would be to consider canon books, well, canon in these conversations. Came to say this. I’d normally say no, but the sheer degree of inconsistency with the writing in the series does kinda force fans to disregard huge pieces of writing as non-canon simple due to internal inconsistency. Redtail’s debt is a great example.
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Nov 22, 2023 21:07:47 GMT -5
Just also want to point out... all the things we hate about the series... is why fanfiction exits. Canon exists so that we can mash it around like putty.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 23, 2023 8:25:36 GMT -5
For me it depends on the reasoning. If you’re making headcanons or writing something for yourself, then there’s no reason for me to say anything to refute what you like to enjoy.
but in the context of a debate or discussing what happens in the books themselves, then no, it’s not really going to work to pick and choose what happens and what didn’t happen when the books explicitly say it. I despise how they handled AVOS and Rowanstar, but sadly for me, it still happened, and I can’t tell a new reader “Oh, this character is actually alive just ignore what the book says”
I can write a ton of fanfictions and AU and fix-its! But it’s never going to be canon, if that makes sense, at least to me.
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Post by Flamefrost on Nov 23, 2023 8:53:04 GMT -5
I personally find a lot of enjoyment in trying to make this now frankly nonsensical series make sense, so as far as I'm concerned uncanonizing is my last resort.
That being said, some things have to be uncanonized if it blatantly contradicts something else that's canon. At that point I choose whatever I prefer/makes most sense. At most, I might rationalize the uncanon event by saying it's just a characters interpretation or misremembering or something.
For example, the first codes in Code of the Clans disagree with DOTC, especially with the leaders they had at the time. But I would rationalize that COTC is the in-universe Clan lore that gets taught to kits, which has been misremembered throughout time. This is why the time scale and names can be wrong, and why each code is so neatly packaged with a moral. Basically, they're legends. It's rooted in truth (e.g. Daisytail exists) but might not be completely accurate. Additionally, imo the COTC Duststar is actually Dust Muzzle.
What other people do though is their own decision, I'm not the Warriors Police.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2023 9:50:07 GMT -5
I love this ^^
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 23, 2023 11:00:56 GMT -5
So long as you aren't debating with others over stuff it doesn't really matter what you choose to decanonize. Like if you're having a debate about Thistleclaw, and you want to discuss him, you can't really just pick and choose which parts of him you like as cannon in my opinion. Unless there are two canons' being presented ofc, but I think this is basically what everyone else is saying.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 23, 2023 11:03:33 GMT -5
I think language matters here. If something bothers you, the proper turn of phrase would be to say “I don’t usually factor that into my consideration because of xyz” or similar. Saying something isn’t canon because you dislike is not quite the same thing.
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Asexual
#ca55a0
Name Colour
Rανєη'ѕ ƑƖιgнт
Rebel Queen
Art by Nicoletta Baldari
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Post by Rανєη'ѕ ƑƖιgнт on Nov 24, 2023 19:35:28 GMT -5
Yes, as long as you don’t try to enforce it on others. Everything after OOTS and DOTC I consider to be a soft reboot since it’s inconsistent with the rest of the books. Especially Squirrelflight’s Hope, pretty much everything either contradicts canon (the StarClan trials) or is just plain bad (SquirrelBramble marital issues, the Sisters).
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Nov 24, 2023 20:36:22 GMT -5
Honestly, Warriors is a mess. So things get complicated.
For the most part, if an event or something is in the text, it's canon. Contradictions are written off as mistakes in my mind.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Nov 25, 2023 2:47:26 GMT -5
Depends on the book, in my opinion. Spottedleaf's Heart should be perfectly okay for anyone to uncanonize. It has pretty much 0 reason to exist.
You can think of it as non-canon, but straight-up denying Thistleclaw's actions in the book doesn't seem all that okay to me. As long as you're not doing that, you're all good in my books.
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Post by Snowfire on Nov 25, 2023 3:16:14 GMT -5
Honestly, it depends. If it's something that was heavily retconned, or doesn't make you comfortable (Some examples being RD, SpH, etc.) I think it's a valid reason to uncanonize on your own terms and creating some sort of a head-canon for yourself. The issue is that if you try convincing people that your "canon" is canon or denying a character's actions such as Thistleclaw, then yeah, that would make you kind of a jerk.
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Rainbow
oatwhisker
riverclan's med!!
Pronouns: it/it's, he/him
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Post by oatwhisker on Nov 25, 2023 14:41:21 GMT -5
Yes, as long as you don’t try to enforce it on others. Everything after OOTS and DOTC I consider to be a soft reboot since it’s inconsistent with the rest of the books. Especially Squirrelflight’s Hope, pretty much everything either contradicts canon (the StarClan trials) or is just plain bad (SquirrelBramble marital issues, the Sisters). yeah, ofcourse i wouldn't try to push it on others. that would make me a hypocrite, since i said that i believe the books are up to the reader's interpretation. if people want to take everything that is in the books as canon, that isn't up to me to tell them to stop, because that's just silly. someone else on this thread worded it perfectly with "warriors police", which i'm not. my point is just that the way you think about the books should be up to you, and if you want to ignore (for lack of a better word) some of the more inconsistent and contradicting books, you should be allowed to, even though, ofcourse, it doesnt change the outcome of the actual canon books, and you shouldnt act like it does.
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Post by iceheart on Dec 4, 2023 19:47:54 GMT -5
I mean, I don't consider anything from the new editing team canon because it's literally just published fanfiction at this point.
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Post by ivysaur on Dec 5, 2023 4:39:41 GMT -5
My answer is no because some things are just too important to not treat as canon and picking and choosing as a fandom when the team writing it already bases so much from fandom interpretations leads to bad writing. However I think there is nothing wrong with being liberal with headcanons and if AUs that erase certain parts of the story is how you interact with Warriors, then that's perfectly fine.
I really hope the new team makes a series bible now after all these years. Most of my "uncannonizing" issues are caused by retcons. If they finally get their lore straight, then I wouldn't need to cut and paste from the source material to make a cohesive narrative.
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