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rowanstar
Nov 18, 2023 21:26:55 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 21:26:55 GMT -5
was rowanstar a bad leader to shadowclan? i couldn’t tell if he really was a bad leader or if they made him into a doormat for plot reasons.
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Post by User33 on Nov 18, 2023 21:49:13 GMT -5
Personally I think don't view Rowanstar in any positive light. But I understand why Rowanstar had trouble doing some decisions (Like driving off Darktail and the kin when they had the chance but failed because a few of their apprentices joined which made them reluctant to attack them)
He tried his best no doubt and it didn't help that WindClan was being led by Onestar at the time. But that doesn't automatically make Rowanstar a great leader in ShadowClan history. He's average at best. On a side note I still don't like him after all this time.
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rowanstar
Nov 19, 2023 0:05:06 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 0:05:06 GMT -5
I love Rowanclaw, but no he wasn’t a good leader as he didn’t enforce the warrior code enough agreed yea, i do love him a lot though. he’s a very tragic character.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 19, 2023 0:19:34 GMT -5
To be honest, I can’t see the whole “rebellious apprentices” issue happening under Blackstar’s leadership. He would not stand lack of respect for a second. In that regard, Rowanstar was weaker for letting so much slide for so long.
I do feel bad for him, though. He wasn’t bad, just mid.
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rowanstar
Nov 19, 2023 9:23:38 GMT -5
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Post by Slightdapple on Nov 19, 2023 9:23:38 GMT -5
I like Rowanclaw, but he definitely wasn’t a good leader.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 19, 2023 10:17:44 GMT -5
I genuinely do not think Rowanstar was any worse than any other generic leader in terms of how he responded to most things. It annoys me that he gets a majority of the blame when his Clanmates genuinely were awful no matter what he said or did to try and enforce sternness. There were instances where he did try and give punishments and make decisions as any leader would, but it wouldn’t have mattered because most of the Clan wouldn’t have listened no matter what. Hell, the Clan literally wanted to be bloodthirsty and feared and seen as awful, and Rowanstar is apparently wrong for… not wanting that to happen???
At that point, the only thing he could have done was be borderline aggressive/abusive to force obedience, but he clearly did not want to ever do that. He got super sick and could barely stay awake, his deputy died, he got blamed for literally everything no matter what he did, and he still allowed the cats who joined the Kin come back home without punishment or banishment.
I just wished he had a chance to become a better/more supported leader after the Kin instead of being trashed for his garbage son. The fact that his last act of life was to die protecting the kits of a cat who betrayed him shone light on the kind of character he was, and the kind of leader he could have become. Easily this series’ worst case of wasted potential and destroying a character for the sake of putting another character on a pedestal.
So, no. He wasn’t an amazing leader because he never even got a chance to be, to learn from his mistakes and actually be listened to for once.
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Post by User33 on Nov 19, 2023 11:03:02 GMT -5
"Ratscar got to his paws. The brown tom’s eyes were narrow. “The apprentices have a point. ShadowClan used to rule the forest. Now we live like a bunch of ThunderClan cats. All we want is peace and food. We’re hardly better than kittypets.”
From Thunder and Shadow pg 140 pdf version.
A bit off topic but you'd think Ratscar would know the horrible cost it took for ShadowClan to "Rule" the forest. Dead kits, exiled elders, etc Unless he's referring to Blackstar?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 12:08:55 GMT -5
"Ratscar got to his paws. The brown tom’s eyes were narrow. “The apprentices have a point. ShadowClan used to rule the forest. Now we live like a bunch of ThunderClan cats. All we want is peace and food. We’re hardly better than kittypets.” From Thunder and Shadow pg 140 pdf version. A bit off topic but you'd think Ratscar would know the horrible cost it took for ShadowClan to "Rule" the forest. Dead kits, exiled elders, etc Unless he's referring to Blackstar? seeing how ratscar was literally terrified of both tigerstar and brokenstar, idk what he means
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 19, 2023 20:04:31 GMT -5
"Ratscar got to his paws. The brown tom’s eyes were narrow. “The apprentices have a point. ShadowClan used to rule the forest. Now we live like a bunch of ThunderClan cats. All we want is peace and food. We’re hardly better than kittypets.” From Thunder and Shadow pg 140 pdf version. A bit off topic but you'd think Ratscar would know the horrible cost it took for ShadowClan to "Rule" the forest. Dead kits, exiled elders, etc Unless he's referring to Blackstar? This is exactly what I mean, alot of Shadowclan's cats were wanting to insight violence and fear, in ways that Shadowclan seemed to spend so long trying to grow away from. Rowanstar was alive during Tigerstar's leadership, he was there when Blackstar turned his back on Starclan and allied with Sol, he was born and his youth was spent during some of Shadowclan's darkest times. The Clan, or at least the book, seemed to write Rowanstar not wanting Shadowclan to be bloodthirsty and feared code-breakers to be a bad thing, which is kind of crazy to me. "All we want is peace and food, how awful!!! How dare you not indulge us and let us invade other Clans and become violent and strike fear, how dare you propose we resolve things at the Gathering peacefully rather than lead an already very weakened Clan into battle that we would absolutely lose!!!" That is basically what a large argument between the Shadowclan cats was. Which. Is genuinely crazy to me. Like... of all the ways Rowanstar could have been a bad or incompetent leader, not wanting to send his Clan into battle and breaking codes and being seen as fear-mongering brutes is not one of the things that constitutes as a bad leader for me. Maybe that's just me?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Nov 19, 2023 22:11:31 GMT -5
He was ass. I don't dislike him but he let just about everyone walk all over him. Like Ambrose said, Blackstar wouldn't have let that shit fly for a second. Rowanstar's regime pretty much exemplifies why a lack of proper respect for others can't be tolerated unless you want entire social structures to fall to pieces.
It might be a bit harsh, since the rebellious apprentices in question were basically edgy teenagers, but they basically threw ShadowClan's overall balance into chaos and rendered them infinitely weaker to outside forces. Darktail is the most obvious one, since that's what happened, but come on, if WindClan decided they wanted a nice, juicy piece of ShadowClan turf (or I dunno, Darktail's daddy dearest got his undies in a twist again and declared another random attack in the night), ShadowClan wouldn't be coordinated and would be a lot more vulnerable because the apprentices refuse to do the shit they don't want to do and leave gaps in their protocol and day-to-day.
He should have put his foot down, and it cost him his clan, his daughter, the respect of his clanmates, his ability to trust himself, and eventually his life. He died like a hero, but he led like a wuss, and that's what's on the table here.
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Post by Chicken on Nov 24, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -5
I 100% think it's for plot reasons AVOS takes place 18 moons after Bramblestar's Storm and he managed to keep the clan together for that long without any issues.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 25, 2023 4:23:18 GMT -5
I'm still overall neutral on Rowanclaw/star as a character and did not even care for him at all until AVoS. Because that made it pretty obvious that he was written to not be able to handle most problems during his leadership there (post-BrS where he seemed to be doing fine though) just so that his son Tigerheart could swoop in as the true leader and saviour of ShadowClan. Bro was literally allowed to die and come back while his dad just gave up and then sacrificed himself as a last effort to somewhat save what was left of his dignity. Doesn't seem like Rowanstar really had much of a fair chance once the writers decided they wanted Tigerstar II to be a thing instead, to be honest.
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Aroace
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
“Do you remember…the 21st night of September?”
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Nov 25, 2023 7:11:11 GMT -5
I genuinely do not think Rowanstar was any worse than any other generic leader in terms of how he responded to most things. It annoys me that he gets a majority of the blame when his Clanmates genuinely were awful no matter what he said or did to try and enforce sternness. There were instances where he did try and give punishments and make decisions as any leader would, but it wouldn’t have mattered because most of the Clan wouldn’t have listened no matter what. Hell, the Clan literally wanted to be bloodthirsty and feared and seen as awful, and Rowanstar is apparently wrong for… not wanting that to happen??? At that point, the only thing he could have done was be borderline aggressive/abusive to force obedience, but he clearly did not want to ever do that. He got super sick and could barely stay awake, his deputy died, he got blamed for literally everything no matter what he did, and he still allowed the cats who joined the Kin come back home without punishment or banishment. I just wished he had a chance to become a better/more supported leader after the Kin instead of being trashed for his garbage son. The fact that his last act of life was to die protecting the kits of a cat who betrayed him shone light on the kind of character he was, and the kind of leader he could have become. Easily this series’ worst case of wasted potential and destroying a character for the sake of putting another character on a pedestal. So, no. He wasn’t an amazing leader because he never even got a chance to be, to learn from his mistakes and actually be listened to for once. Incredibly off topic but I saw ur art of Rowanstar on a warrior cat fact video lmao
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rowanstar
Nov 25, 2023 10:02:19 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 25, 2023 10:02:19 GMT -5
I genuinely do not think Rowanstar was any worse than any other generic leader in terms of how he responded to most things. It annoys me that he gets a majority of the blame when his Clanmates genuinely were awful no matter what he said or did to try and enforce sternness. There were instances where he did try and give punishments and make decisions as any leader would, but it wouldn’t have mattered because most of the Clan wouldn’t have listened no matter what. Hell, the Clan literally wanted to be bloodthirsty and feared and seen as awful, and Rowanstar is apparently wrong for… not wanting that to happen??? At that point, the only thing he could have done was be borderline aggressive/abusive to force obedience, but he clearly did not want to ever do that. He got super sick and could barely stay awake, his deputy died, he got blamed for literally everything no matter what he did, and he still allowed the cats who joined the Kin come back home without punishment or banishment. I just wished he had a chance to become a better/more supported leader after the Kin instead of being trashed for his garbage son. The fact that his last act of life was to die protecting the kits of a cat who betrayed him shone light on the kind of character he was, and the kind of leader he could have become. Easily this series’ worst case of wasted potential and destroying a character for the sake of putting another character on a pedestal. So, no. He wasn’t an amazing leader because he never even got a chance to be, to learn from his mistakes and actually be listened to for once. Incredibly off topic but I saw ur art of Rowanstar on a warrior cat fact video lmao It was? Huh… I’m assuming it’s one of those highly incorrect fact videos with the facts like “Bluestar and Firestar were actually cousins”? I’m not saying I care if it’s used in it or not but uh. That’s kind of weird. Which video was it?
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Aroace
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
“Do you remember…the 21st night of September?”
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Nov 25, 2023 10:38:06 GMT -5
Incredibly off topic but I saw ur art of Rowanstar on a warrior cat fact video lmao It was? Huh… I’m assuming it’s one of those highly incorrect fact videos with the facts like “Bluestar and Firestar were actually cousins”? I’m not saying I care if it’s used in it or not but uh. That’s kind of weird. Which video was it? I can’t seem to remember. If I find it I’ll send u the link lol
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rowanstar
Nov 25, 2023 10:48:11 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Moonblazer on Nov 25, 2023 10:48:11 GMT -5
It was? Huh… I’m assuming it’s one of those highly incorrect fact videos with the facts like “Bluestar and Firestar were actually cousins”? I’m not saying I care if it’s used in it or not but uh. That’s kind of weird. Which video was it? I can’t seem to remember. If I find it I’ll send u the link lol Many thanks! I just wanna see what fact they used it for lmao
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 2:19:32 GMT -5
I really like him. Which is rare considering I hate Skystar and Onestar (I think, I’ll have to read One’s SE)
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Post by iceheart on Dec 2, 2023 13:51:22 GMT -5
He was a fine leader. Pretty generic considering we've seen virtually nothing of him when he's not being berated for being a weak leader. There was nothing wrong with him - he led his Clan fine, we don't see why he's so weak and useless like the Clan apprentices berate him for. They say they want to go to the golden age of ShadowClan where they were attacking and feared, and the senior warriors... agree with them? And then he makes these realistic decisions that the older warriors give him hell for. Because he chose not to drive Darktail out? Or because he didn't exile his apprentices? How was he supposed to exile the apprentices of his Clan, considering half of them were his kin? The Ultimate Guide 2.0 gives us a reason on why he was a weak leader, because he gave the new rowdy apprentices to new warriors to mentor. But... considering only two of them were new warriors, and the other were Tawnypelt, Tigerheart, and Snowbird, that's a pretty terrible reason to justify why you've torn down a character. He was only made bad so Tigerheart could be good, swoop in, and save the day because he's the only cat who can lead ShadowClan, nobody else. Rowanstar was a good leader. The text doesn't give us any indication of why he's bad - since the characters say so, we must believe that he is. It's "show don't tell" at its worst.
Like, let's be real. How exactly would he deal with the rebellious apprenticeship other than giving them punishments for chores (which happened and they didn't care) or... exile them? Blackstar probably would've exiled them, and I'm sure half of ShadowClan wouldn't have it. The truth is he was made to look awful so his garbage son can become Tigerstar 2.0. Once the editors decided that was going to happen, there was no saving for Rowanstar.
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 2, 2023 14:26:48 GMT -5
He was a fine leader. Pretty generic considering we've seen virtually nothing of him when he's not being berated for being a weak leader. There was nothing wrong with him - he led his Clan fine, we don't see why he's so weak and useless like the Clan apprentices berate him for. They say they want to go to the golden age of ShadowClan where they were attacking and feared, and the senior warriors... agree with them? And then he makes these realistic decisions that the older warriors give him hell for. Because he chose not to drive Darktail out? Or because he didn't exile his apprentices? How was he supposed to exile the apprentices of his Clan, considering half of them were his kin? The Ultimate Guide 2.0 gives us a reason on why he was a weak leader, because he gave the new rowdy apprentices to new warriors to mentor. But... considering only two of them were new warriors, and the other were Tawnypelt, Tigerheart, and Snowbird, that's a pretty terrible reason to justify why you've torn down a character. He was only made bad so Tigerheart could be good, swoop in, and save the day because he's the only cat who can lead ShadowClan, nobody else. Rowanstar was a good leader. The text doesn't give us any indication of why he's bad - since the characters say so, we must believe that he is. It's "show don't tell" at its worst. Like, let's be real. How exactly would he deal with the rebellious apprenticeship other than giving them punishments for chores (which happened and they didn't care) or... exile them? Blackstar probably would've exiled them, and I'm sure half of ShadowClan wouldn't have it. The truth is he was made to look awful so his garbage son can become Tigerstar 2.0. Once the editors decided that was going to happen, there was no saving for Rowanstar. Especially since in Bramblestar's Storm, which was like right before this arc, there wasn't any of these issues shown or any indication that he wasn't being respected by his clanmates. The sudden change in writing was jarring, and made no sense beyond just wanting an excuse to make Tigerheart seem ideal for the position, when he really wasn't. Doesn't help that he broke codes, abandoned his clan after getting Dovewing pregnant, and got to come back and be rewarded leadership for nothing. It's just. Reallly frustrating to read character writing like this, because the writing method of tearing every character down to make one single character look good is one of the worst and laziest methods I can think of.
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Pansexual
Medicine cat
Nettle
woof woof
Pronouns: She/her, They/them.
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Post by Nettle on Dec 2, 2023 14:37:19 GMT -5
Thought his leadership methods were a bit rocky to be honest, but yeah, he was an enjoyable leader/deputy/father/mate.
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rowanstar
Dec 2, 2023 14:50:10 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 14:50:10 GMT -5
Once the editors decided that was going to happen, there was no saving for Rowanstar. truest statement i’ve seen this entire day. you can never change the course of the books when the authors mentally decided they want a certain action to occur.
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rowanstar
Dec 2, 2023 16:22:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Moonblazer on Dec 2, 2023 16:22:00 GMT -5
Once the editors decided that was going to happen, there was no saving for Rowanstar. truest statement i’ve seen this entire day. you can never change the course of the books when the authors mentally decided they want a certain action to occur. At least I have my writing and drawing and AU fics to get started on if canon can’t give me the satisfaction of keeping a character’s dignity in tact, imma write this Rowanstar SE AU one day, trust
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rowanstar
Dec 2, 2023 16:25:15 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 16:25:15 GMT -5
truest statement i’ve seen this entire day. you can never change the course of the books when the authors mentally decided they want a certain action to occur. At least I have my writing and drawing and AU fics to get started on if canon can’t give me the satisfaction of keeping a character’s dignity in tact, imma write this Rowanstar SE AU one day, trust moonblazer u must bless me w this au i need it 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
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rowanstar
Dec 2, 2023 16:34:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Moonblazer on Dec 2, 2023 16:34:22 GMT -5
At least I have my writing and drawing and AU fics to get started on if canon can’t give me the satisfaction of keeping a character’s dignity in tact, imma write this Rowanstar SE AU one day, trust moonblazer u must bless me w this au i need it 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 Oh fam I got you, it’s fully fleshed out in my mind, I just need to actually write it, I can dm you the summary of it pretty much
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rowanstar
Dec 2, 2023 16:35:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2023 16:35:26 GMT -5
moonblazer u must bless me w this au i need it 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 Oh fam I got you, it’s fully fleshed out in my mind, I just need to actually write it, I can dm you the summary of it pretty much OMG yes PLEASE
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