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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 15:14:09 GMT -5
has anyone noticed how squirrelflight has changed... a LOT. she's always been a character i disliked mildly, but now after i started rereading the books (specifically TNP and SqH) i saw how awful she really is. ignoring her political choices, she's not conscience of anyone but herself (see her during the whole hawkfrost stuff where she ignores how brambleclaw was being emotionally manipulated yet she kept pushing her prejudice onto him) or during the whole reveal about the kits she tried to defend herself rather than apologizing and explaining the situation. I'm not saying shes a bad cat nor is she evil... but her actions in the most current arc and in SqH really trigger me in ways i can't fathom. she switches up- in sky she's all against bramblestar for wanting to send nightheart to spy on riverclan to see what was going on, then in shadow she suddenly believes shadowclan are the worst cats in the world, to the point where nightheart's afraid she's going to claw him for not agreeing.
"Bramblestar met Squirrelflight's gaze squarely. "I'm the leader, no matter what you think," he growled. "And if I say we should see how it plays out before we act, then that's what we'll do."
Squirrelflight looked ready to swipe a blow at Bramblestar's muzzle. Instead she growled and stalked away."
That is insane to me! Threatening to harm him for making a sound decision to not randomly attack another clan and waiting to see it play out in my opinion is the sound decision to make- one which Squirrelflight agreed with just a book prior. Why has she suddenly switched up? And threatening to harm her own traumatized mate with claws is insane!
To continue outside of ASC, I point to SqH. I won't go too in-depth into this book as I know it causes an incredible amount of controversies, but truly speaking- Squirrelflight made so many idiotic decisions, resulting in the book playing out the way it did-
- she gave up 2 pieces of important information about her clan to the leaders, and also inadvertently forced leafstar into moving onto the land (bramble point's this out, but by bringing up a somewhat decision solution, no matter what leafstar does or doesn't want, she'll be forced to take that land regardless.) - she actively reacted on what she thought instead of communicating with her partner, who was incredibly worried about her. she ran off with an idea she thought would work, roped in another clan leader by abusing her deputy-ship, and used her role as a mother to silence her daughter into submission. maybe I'm reading into things, but that was awful to put sparkpelt in that position. then, to be kidnapped by the sisters and not see how awful it is to be trapped, no matter the reasoning? (also, moonxsquilf is a toxic ship n disgusting.) - then she starts complaining about being punished (a very minor punishment) despite her putting herself at risk and could've been hurt or worse, depending on when she met the sisters. - when she found out her daughter was pregnant, she was so happy- yet when her mate showed her any notion of sympathy for not wanting kits as much as her, she shuts him out yet again. she's done this before, back in TnP. - after, ignoring the morals of the sunrise situation (which IMO she was right to want to help sunrise) she essentially forced bramblestar and the entire clan into a wall- should he listen to his deputy and the outcry of a few young warriors, or listen to his older warriors who were vehemently against healing the injured sister after hearing them attack shadowclan warriors? he wanted to choose an option which didn't anger anyone, so he turned to starclan, who gave an answer which followed under the lines of not doing something that angers shadowclan. while i can agree his actions weren't right, his choice to not heal the sister had nothing to do w squilf, who keeps weaponizing her relationship to get what she wants. - after that, she basically keeps the undermining up. she gets called out time and time again for making bad decisions, at one point an entire windclan patrol pointed this out after they pointed out that she was in favor of windclan hunting on their own lands. she flip-flops her decisions and then gets upset when she deals with the natural consequences.
to end my squilf's hope ranting here, the book does a fantastic job of characterizing Squirrelflight as someone who is not fit to lead or even be a deputy, no matter how bad you think everyone else is. in conclusion to this mini rant, Squirrelflight has been written to be incredibly flawed and childish, doing things she considers to be correct. i feel like the authors never meant to write her like this, and i can understand her fans, but defending her actions as just "she's spunky" isn't fair. her political and emotional decisions parallel that of tigerstar 2, and she's too headstrong for her own good. my hope is for her to retire for good. i rant more on my doc, but I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts! please be civil by the way. bramblestar analysis!edit: i didn’t mean for the “clawing” part to start any controversy, i was just pointing out how she’s so aggressive for something that makes sense. apologies if i implied otherwise, as to me it felt very.. aggressive and hard to read.
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on Oct 30, 2023 16:53:18 GMT -5
The thing I hate most about the BrambleSquirrel kit drama is that when Squirrelflight pressures Bramblestar for kits and he doesnt want them most of the fandom ignores it and acts like it’s fine but if the roles were reversed then everyone would be using it as a new excuse to hate Bramblestar
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 17:10:40 GMT -5
The thing I hate most about the BrambleSquirrel kit drama is that when Squirrelflight pressures Bramblestar for kits and he doesnt want them most of the fandom ignores it and acts like it’s fine but if the roles were reversed then everyone would be using it as a new excuse to hate Bramblestar it’s BEYOND me to see her equate love to kits- and while yes bramblestar theoretically brings it up first, when he tries to apologize she starts to question if he even loves her bc he’s not ready for another litter (keep in mind how he most likely has severe trauma and trust issues from the first litter he fathered.) and these roles were reversed, with finleap wanting kits and twigbranch saying she doesn’t. we as a fandom think finleap sucks and it’s an abuser but squirrelflight isn’t?
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Oct 30, 2023 17:52:20 GMT -5
I read the entire thing top to bottom. I totally forgot about the Brokenstar thing. They sheltered him and Thunderclan got attacked for their trouble. Tigerheart attacking Thunderclan for healing Sunrise was a legitimate concern. I've seen too many arguments that Bramblestar shouldn't have cared what Tigerheart thought, but Bluestar did the same thing and didn't care about what Tallstar or Nightstar thought and got her clan attacked for her trouble. And those two were much more sensible than Tigerheart. I could barely get through the Moonkitti quotes because they were so inherently wrong to me. Thank you for writing this. More people seriously need to read this. It explains Bramblestar's side so well (and proves that Squirrelflight is a poor choice for leadership) Her being leader now infuriates me. Now I feel like the Erins are going to make her leadership as smooth as possible because Squirrelflight's way or the highway and her stans are going to make the argument that Bramblestar was the problem all along. The fact that Squirrelflight's Hope is its own analysis is wild 😭
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 30, 2023 17:53:01 GMT -5
you are so brave for posting this /hj
I will say, though, I don't agree that Brambleclaw was "groomed" by Hawkfrost. Manipulated, yes; his desire for kinship exploited, yes; but that doesn't equal grooming. We need to be careful to only use words like that when appropriately suited.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 17:58:49 GMT -5
you are so brave for posting this /hj I will say, though, I don't agree that Brambleclaw was "groomed" by Hawkfrost. Manipulated, yes; his desire for kinship exploited, yes; but that doesn't equal grooming. We need to be careful to only use words like that when appropriately suited. HAH 😭 i do agree it was a bit brave, but i’ve been slandered enough so i can take it! i do agree- i don’t think it was hawk grooming bramble, more so tiger mentally grooming him + hawk manipulating him- i apologize i should’ve made it more clear! i’ll remove the word “grooming” from my doc, thanks! edit: just fixed it, sorry for implying anything problematic /gen
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:06:12 GMT -5
I read the entire thing top to bottom. I totally forgot about the Brokenstar thing. They sheltered him and Thunderclan got attacked for their trouble. Tigerheart attacking Thunderclan for healing Sunrise was a legitimate concern. I've seen too many arguments that Bramblestar shouldn't have cared what Tigerheart thought, but Bluestar did the same thing and didn't care about what Tallstar or Nightstar thought and got her clan attacked for her trouble. And those two were much more sensible than Tigerheart. I could barely get through the Moonkitti quotes because they were so inherently wrong to me. Thank you for writing this. More people seriously need to read this. It explains Bramblestar's side so well (and proves that Squirrelflight is a poor choice for leadership) Her being leader now infuriates me. Now I feel like the Erins are going to make her leadership as smooth as possible because Squirrelflight's way or the highway and her stans are going to make the argument that Bramblestar was the problem all along. The fact that Squirrelflight's Hope is its own analysis is wild 😭 exactly- if i’m also recalling correctly, there were scenes in TPB where bluestar turned away injured shadowclan warriors and cinderpelt snuck out to help them. we don’t argue that bluestar was being abusive or a bad cat, she had valid concern for turning away cats who were active threats to her clan. there is a real reason why bramblestar was understandably afraid of getting his clan into unnecessary situations like a war with shadowclan over outsider cats who’ve done nothing but hurt the clans for seemingly no reason. and thank you so much for reading it! i made this to combat a certain video but certain fans of that person refused to see another perspective. oh god yes, i remember when i read spinestar’s spoiler thread n it cut to squilf getting her lives i was so upset i couldn’t finish reading the current warrior book i was on for a few days. she has shown she is politically inept, she never should’ve been a deputy and now she’s an apathetic leader who’s self obsessed with being right. as you said, squirrelflight’s way or the highway. LOL yeah squilfs hope needed it’s whole analysis with quotes bc fans LOVE to misinterpret that book 😭😭
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 30, 2023 18:06:16 GMT -5
I totally forgot about the Brokenstar thing. They sheltered him and Thunderclan got attacked for their trouble. Tigerheart attacking Thunderclan for healing Sunrise was a legitimate concern. I've seen too many arguments that Bramblestar shouldn't have cared what Tigerheart thought, but Bluestar did the same thing and didn't care about what Tallstar or Nightstar thought and got her clan attacked for her trouble. And those two were much more sensible than Tigerheart. That kinda depends on your moral views of the situation. Your comment implies that Bluestar did the wrong thing by sheltering Brokenstar, but I personally think Bluestar was right; imo, imprisoning Brokenstar was the just call, while cold blooded execution (or turning him out to slowly die in the wilderness) of a defeated foe is unjust. So from my perspective Bluestar was showing her clan had a moral backbone they were willing to risk war to uphold.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:10:44 GMT -5
I totally forgot about the Brokenstar thing. They sheltered him and Thunderclan got attacked for their trouble. Tigerheart attacking Thunderclan for healing Sunrise was a legitimate concern. I've seen too many arguments that Bramblestar shouldn't have cared what Tigerheart thought, but Bluestar did the same thing and didn't care about what Tallstar or Nightstar thought and got her clan attacked for her trouble. And those two were much more sensible than Tigerheart. That kinda depends on your moral views of the situation. Your comment implies that Bluestar did the wrong thing by sheltering Brokenstar, but I personally think Bluestar was right; imo, imprisoning Brokenstar was the just call, while cold blooded execution (or turning him out to slowly die in the wilderness) of a defeated foe is unjust. So from my perspective Bluestar was showing her clan had a moral backbone they were willing to risk war to uphold. i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.)
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on Oct 30, 2023 18:17:00 GMT -5
Squilf was honestly worse than Bramblestar in her book. She put every clan in danger by siding with cats she just met, and changed her mind on what to do about skyclan several times in her book, somehow contradicting Bramblestar every single time. When Bramblestar told her he didn't want kits, she immediately interpreted this as "I can't wait for you to die so I can get a new mate and have kits with them" which is completely ignoring what Bramblestar just said about his issues without talking to him. Once again without talking to him, she is too upset to sleep in his nest and avoids him. Without. Communicating. At. All.
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Post by moongloweevee on Oct 30, 2023 18:19:17 GMT -5
I'm going to point this out to everyone since I'm helping working on the doc:
Notice how Squirrelflight constantly goes to Leafpool for advice and either gets frustrated when her sister doesn't agree with her or quickly tries to change the topic so she can at least get a bit of sympathy from someone, such as quickly changing topic from the Skyclan situation to kits? The first and only time she listened to anyone's advice was Firestar while she was in the between state of being alive/dying.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:19:59 GMT -5
Squilf was honestly worse than Bramblestar in her book. She put every clan in danger by siding with cats she just met, and changed her mind on what to do about skyclan several times in her book, somehow contradicting Bramblestar every single time. When Bramblestar told her he didn't want kits, she immediately interpreted this as "I can't wait for you to die so I can get a new mate and have kits with them" which is completely ignoring what Bramblestar just said about his issues without talking to him. Once again without talking to him, she is too upset to sleep in his nest and avoids him. Without. Communicating. At. All. absolutely- and while she is written to have a mid-life crisis in the book, her reactions are disgusting and saddening. bramblestar was forced to be the bad guy to the clans and to his mate, and squilf undermining him, antagonizing him to his daughter, and at the end promising him she’d be there for the clan then dipping out is so upsetting.
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on Oct 30, 2023 18:20:45 GMT -5
If Tumblr finds this thread we're going to be burnt at stake
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:21:17 GMT -5
If Tumblr finds this thread we're going to be burnt at stake i’m scared 😭😭💀💀💀
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Post by moongloweevee on Oct 30, 2023 18:22:14 GMT -5
If Tumblr finds this thread we're going to be burnt at stake i’m scared 😭😭💀💀💀 Oi, I'll fight every single hater for you
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:22:19 GMT -5
stop tumblr is going to eat me alive 💀💀💀
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:22:54 GMT -5
Oi, I'll fight every single hater for you ily 😢😢😢
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Oct 30, 2023 18:24:52 GMT -5
That kinda depends on your moral views of the situation. Your comment implies that Bluestar did the wrong thing by sheltering Brokenstar, but I personally think Bluestar was right; imo, imprisoning Brokenstar was the just call, while cold blooded execution (or turning him out to slowly die in the wilderness) of a defeated foe is unjust. So from my perspective Bluestar was showing her clan had a moral backbone they were willing to risk war to uphold. i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.) I don't want to start arguments or more discourse. I'm just saying, right or wrong, Bluestar opened up her clan to a retaliatory strike. Her clan was in agreement then. Squirrelflight didn't have support. I'm just saying that an attack from Tigerheart was a concern that Squirrelflight didn't think about. Bluestar and her clan knew the risks involved; Squirrelflight decided to make the decision for Thunderclan, which they didn't appreciate.
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Post by moongloweevee on Oct 30, 2023 18:26:31 GMT -5
i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.) I don't want to start arguments or more discourse. I'm just saying, right or wrong, Bluestar opened up her clan to a retaliatory strike. Her clan was in agreement then. Squirrelflight didn't have support. I'm just saying that an attack from Tigerheart was a concern that Squirrelflight didn't think about. Bluestar and her clan knew the risks involved; Squirrelflight decided to make the decision for Thunderclan, which they didn't appreciate. Oh, that's actually a good point, going to write this down for later
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Oct 30, 2023 18:40:46 GMT -5
oh god yes, i remember when i read spinestar’s spoiler thread n it cut to squilf getting her lives i was so upset i couldn’t finish reading the current warrior book i was on for a few days. she has shown she is politically inept, she never should’ve been a deputy and now she’s an apathetic leader who’s self obsessed with being right. as you said, squirrelflight’s way or the highway. I woke up super early in the morning because I was anxious about what was happening.
As soon as I read "Brambleclaw and Squirrelstar" I actually hissed at the screen.
The only other time I got that angry was when they were announcing Bramblestar's retirement.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:46:28 GMT -5
oh god yes, i remember when i read spinestar’s spoiler thread n it cut to squilf getting her lives i was so upset i couldn’t finish reading the current warrior book i was on for a few days. she has shown she is politically inept, she never should’ve been a deputy and now she’s an apathetic leader who’s self obsessed with being right. as you said, squirrelflight’s way or the highway. I woke up super early in the morning because I was anxious about what was happening.
As soon as I read "Brambleclaw and Squirrelstar" I actually hissed at the screen.
The only other time I got that angry was when they were announcing Bramblestar's retirement. this is the realest thing i’ve seen today 😭 i got so anxious the morning i saw the thread
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 30, 2023 18:46:43 GMT -5
That kinda depends on your moral views of the situation. Your comment implies that Bluestar did the wrong thing by sheltering Brokenstar, but I personally think Bluestar was right; imo, imprisoning Brokenstar was the just call, while cold blooded execution (or turning him out to slowly die in the wilderness) of a defeated foe is unjust. So from my perspective Bluestar was showing her clan had a moral backbone they were willing to risk war to uphold. i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.) Did she have her clan's support? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that most of ThunderClan were quite unhappy about sheltering him and she got a lot of pushback (especially after Nightstar and Tallstar confronted her at the Gathering), although at the end of the day they respected her decision as their leader even if they didn't like it. And I don't think you can say there was "no risk to keep him" when two clans threatened war over sheltering Brokentail. I'd argue that Bluestar was in just as hard of a situation, if not harder, than Bramblestar. The difference is that she didn't let circumstance sway her moral code and her clanmates ultimately respected her for it. The problem with Bramblestar imo is that he kinda lacks a backbone when he's put under a lot of pressure. If his clanmates were anxious about outsiders and fearing ShadowClan, his duty as leader is to...well, lead. He should have been firm in his honor and called his warriors to a higher standard of nobility - especially since righteous nobility is a foundational quality of ThunderClan and would have rallied his people. Instead he cracked and anxiously tried to appease everyone. He wasn't inspiring trust/respect in his leadership decisions. (Squirrelflight doesn't help that, of course, but it's a flaw of his regardless of her meddling). Sorry I know this thread is about Squilf lol, just thought this was an interesting tangent.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 18:54:02 GMT -5
i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.) Did she have her clan's support? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that most of ThunderClan were quite unhappy about sheltering him and she got a lot of pushback (especially after Nightstar and Tallstar confronted her at the Gathering), although at the end of the day the respected her decision as their leader even if they didn't like it. And I don't think you can say there was "no risk to keep him" when two clans threatened war over sheltering Brokentail. I'd argue that Bluestar was in just as hard of a situation, if not harder, than Bramblestar. The difference is that she didn't let circumstance sway her moral code. The problem with Bramblestar imo is that he kinda lacks a backbone when he's put under a lot of pressure. If his clanmates were anxious about outsiders and fearing ShadowClan, his duty as leader is to...well, lead. He should have been firm in his honor and called his warriors to a high standard of nobility - especially since righteous nobility is a foundational quality of ThunderClan and would have rallied his people. Instead he cracked and anxiously tried to appease everyone. He wasn't inspiring trust/respect in his leadership decisions. (Squirrelflight doesn't help that, but it's a flaw of his regardless). Sorry I know this thread is about Squilf lol, just thought this was an interesting tangent. hmm, you bring up a good point about the bluestar stuff- the part i remember is bluestar basically asking her clanmates and they’re all like “we should be moral to brokentail bc he’s blind and no risk to thunderclan at that point. and i suppose yeah he’s spineless at points but to me- he was put in an interesting predicament and while he should just.. keep an air of nobility to sunrise, i can understand his decision. again, it’s politically understandable if not morally acceptable.
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Post by stupidflower on Oct 30, 2023 19:08:43 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion here, but I like both Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. I used to dislike Squirrelflight, but now I appreciate how she isn't perfect, and her inability to believe herself to be wrong makes her super interesting to me. I have disliked her many times. I disliked how she was angry that Lionblaze and Jayfeather were angry at Leafpool. I disliked how much she was willing to sacrifice to get Bramblestar back, and how many LIVES she was willing to sacrifice. I didn't like how she belitled Brambleclaw during the Hawkfrost situation, when what he needed was support and reassurance. Her actions in SqH actually didn't bother me too much though. She felt Firestar-esque (though admitedly with more potential to be more destructive) in violating the rules to do what she felt was right, no matter the risk. Firestar did similar, though Squilf was that times 100. We obviously expect more of her because of her position and how old she is. But that isn't who she is. She's headstrong and overconfident and dense and I like that she's a more unique character in that way. She makes mistakes. She isn't perfect. She's not the brightest. She was reckless and stupid and thought with her heart over her head and could have caused tons of problems. And that's what I like about her. It makes her interesting and I can't bring myself to dislike her anymore. The Squirrelstar reign will be undoubtedly interesting and full of chaos: just how I like it. And at this point, it feels like snatching leadership away, no matter how short, when she is so close would have been cruel to her after everything she's suffered, and yes, she HAS suffered. I feel that we forget how traumatized and damaged she is, less so than Bramble, but still very much so. Has she wronged others? Has she messed up? Was she downright unbareable at times? Yes. But if someone like Blackstar gets to be leader, I personally think Squirrelflight should get a chance, even a small one.
Her reign will definitely be short due to her age and obvious incoming Ivystar, but I think it will be very interesting and I'm glad it's happening. Not a Squilf defender in the slightest, lol. Just wanted to share my own thoughts. It's cool to get a flawed, but not utterly awful (imo) character (ex. awful like Leopardstar, Onestar) in a position of power right now, and I'm excited for it. This will definitely be an unpopular opinion on here, I don't want anyone to think less of me haha.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 30, 2023 19:09:14 GMT -5
Did she have her clan's support? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that most of ThunderClan were quite unhappy about sheltering him and she got a lot of pushback (especially after Nightstar and Tallstar confronted her at the Gathering), although at the end of the day the respected her decision as their leader even if they didn't like it. And I don't think you can say there was "no risk to keep him" when two clans threatened war over sheltering Brokentail. I'd argue that Bluestar was in just as hard of a situation, if not harder, than Bramblestar. The difference is that she didn't let circumstance sway her moral code. The problem with Bramblestar imo is that he kinda lacks a backbone when he's put under a lot of pressure. If his clanmates were anxious about outsiders and fearing ShadowClan, his duty as leader is to...well, lead. He should have been firm in his honor and called his warriors to a high standard of nobility - especially since righteous nobility is a foundational quality of ThunderClan and would have rallied his people. Instead he cracked and anxiously tried to appease everyone. He wasn't inspiring trust/respect in his leadership decisions. (Squirrelflight doesn't help that, but it's a flaw of his regardless). Sorry I know this thread is about Squilf lol, just thought this was an interesting tangent. hmm, you bring up a good point about the bluestar stuff- the part i remember is bluestar basically asking her clanmates and they’re all like “we should be moral to brokentail bc he’s blind and no risk to thunderclan at that point. and i suppose yeah he’s spineless at points but to me- he was put in an interesting predicament and while he should just.. keep an air of nobility to sunrise, i can understand his decision. again, it’s politically understandable if not morally acceptable. Yeah I can agree with that. I don't like his decision, but I understand the factors that weighed on him.
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Post by moongloweevee on Oct 30, 2023 19:09:50 GMT -5
i think this is true, to me personally (i’m not moonshine so i won’t speak on their take) i think she made the right decision, and her clan supporting her decision was mainly the point i wanted to make. with the case of sunrise, there were a lot of factors that had to be taken into account, such as anxiety towards outsiders, the clan not wanting to help the sisters, and sunrise having 3 strong kin next to her who could attack at any moment. the issue with brokentail coming to the clan was that he was blinded, so no risk to keep him- and honestly it’s as you said, bluestar had support from her clan and the moral high ground by keeping him. i don’t remember if i recall this correctly but didn’t fireheart also advocate for brokenstar bc he knew that yellowfang was his mother? and bluestar is implied to also know? (correct me if i’m wrong tho.) Did she have her clan's support? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought that most of ThunderClan were quite unhappy about sheltering him and she got a lot of pushback (especially after Nightstar and Tallstar confronted her at the Gathering), although at the end of the day they respected her decision as their leader even if they didn't like it. And I don't think you can say there was "no risk to keep him" when two clans threatened war over sheltering Brokentail. I'd argue that Bluestar was in just as hard of a situation, if not harder, than Bramblestar. The difference is that she didn't let circumstance sway her moral code and her clanmates ultimately respected her for it. The problem with Bramblestar imo is that he kinda lacks a backbone when he's put under a lot of pressure. If his clanmates were anxious about outsiders and fearing ShadowClan, his duty as leader is to...well, lead. He should have been firm in his honor and called his warriors to a higher standard of nobility - especially since righteous nobility is a foundational quality of ThunderClan and would have rallied his people. Instead he cracked and anxiously tried to appease everyone. He wasn't inspiring trust/respect in his leadership decisions. (Squirrelflight doesn't help that, of course, but it's a flaw of his regardless of her meddling). Sorry I know this thread is about Squilf lol, just thought this was an interesting tangent. I kinda agree but I also kinda disagree. Unlike Brokenstar who was blind, Sunrise has 3 of the Sisters tagging along. It was stated that as big as Bramblestar was, the Sisters overshadowed him. Squirrelflight quickly took note of that but still brought Sunrise and 3 really agressive Maine coon cats back with her (I'm just calling them Maine coons or at least a mixed breed of Maine coons). She could have at least rushed home, told Leafpool and rushed back over to where the Sisters were holed up.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 19:18:23 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion here, but I like both Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. I used to dislike Squirrelflight, but now I appreciate how she isn't perfect, and her inability to believe herself to be wrong makes her super interesting to me. I have disliked her many times. I disliked how she was angry that Lionblaze and Jayfeather were angry at Leafpool. I disliked how much she was willing to sacrifice to get Bramblestar back, and how many LIVES she was willing to sacrifice. I didn't like how she belitled Brambleclaw during the Hawkfrost situation, when what he needed was support and reassurance. Her actions in SqH actually didn't bother me too much though. She felt Firestar-esque (though admitedly with more potential to be more destructive) in violating the rules to do what she felt was right, no matter the risk. Firestar did similar, though Squilf was that times 100. We obviously expect more of her because of her position and how old she is. But that isn't who she is. She's headstrong and overconfident and dense and I like that she's a more unique character in that way. She makes mistakes. She isn't perfect. She's not the brightest. She was reckless and stupid and thought with her heart over her head and could have caused tons of problems. And that's what I like about her. It makes her interesting and I can't bring myself to dislike her anymore. The Squirrelstar reign will be undoubtedly interesting and full of chaos: just how I like it. And at this point, it feels like snatching leadership away, no matter how short, when she is so close would have been cruel to her after everything she's suffered, and yes, she HAS suffered. I feel that we forget how traumatized and damaged she is, less so than Bramble, but still very much so. Has she wronged others? Has she messed up? Was she downright unbareable at times? Yes. But if someone like Blackstar gets to be leader, I personally think Squirrelflight should get a chance, even a small one.
Her reign will definitely be short due to her age and obvious incoming Ivystar, but I think it will be very interesting and I'm glad it's happening. Not a Squilf defender in the slightest, lol. Just wanted to share my own thoughts. It's cool to get a flawed, but not utterly awful (imo) character (ex. awful like Leopardstar, Onestar) in a position of power right now, and I'm excited for it. This will definitely be an unpopular opinion on here, I don't want anyone to think less of me haha. this is some interesting points! i can deffo see why you like her as a character, and honestly i was like that for a realllyyyy long time. for me, the reason why i started to dislike her and downright can't stand her is just the current arc i don't understand why she's so completely apathetic to her mate's dissonance, it feels so wrong, that's what's been hurting me- that and the whole squilf's hope stuff where he basically realizes she's hurting him but consistently undermining him. but i totally respect you dude, you're free to like whoever!
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Post by pepperflake on Oct 30, 2023 19:20:05 GMT -5
I get how she has been very stubborn to say the least… but I honestly like her and wouldn’t mind seeing what the future has in store your my bushy-tailed cutie
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 30, 2023 19:25:21 GMT -5
Her actions in SqH actually didn't bother me too much though. She felt Firestar-esque (though admitedly with more potential to be more destructive) in violating the rules to do what she felt was right, no matter the risk. Firestar did similar, though Squilf was that times 100. I've always said that Squirrelflight has Firestar's moral compass but combined with Sandstorm's righteous pride, so the result is a very headstrong character, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 19:26:28 GMT -5
I get how she has been very stubborn to say the least… but I honestly like her and wouldn’t mind seeing what the future has in store your my bushy-tailed cutie don't get me wrong, she's a fine character, it's just the canon hasn't made her... grow up? she's unbearably childish at points and despite me being a loser for the couple in scenes like ALITM where they reunite after being apart for so long, or scenes like in SqH at the end where he's begging for her to come back to him, her notion of "squilf's way or the highway" is so awful. she needs to understand balance in leadership, emotions, and politics, and i feel like that's what she doesn't do.
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