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Post by streamflower on May 27, 2023 18:50:19 GMT -5
I mean Ravenwing straight up said that the kits would suffer, and he still surged forward and told Oakstar full well knowing there'd be consequences for the innocent, and then did absolutely nothing to defend them when they were being exiled.
Ravenwing worst medicine cat
I can't think of a single medicine cat that would be like, "Yeah these kits are going to be hurt...better do absolutely nothing to help them!" A good medicine cat would defend the kits (or at least attempt to talk down their leader from exiling them).
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Aroace
maqle
mostly inactive
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Post by maqle on May 27, 2023 19:12:28 GMT -5
1. Leafpool x Crowfeather sucks ass and I headcanon that its totally 1 sided and Leafpool basically imagined her feelings for crowfeather after being put under a ton of pressure by him (unintentionally) after he saves her life. 2. Both Bramblestar and Squirrelflight are horrible partners and both are abusing eachother. I really dont they shouldve ever gotten together seeing as they never really had any romantic feelings for eachother during their time during the journey + before that.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 27, 2023 21:14:54 GMT -5
right, it's his fault, but those clearly were not his intentions. mapleshade broke the code, she should've been ready to deal with the consequences of it. and as i said, starclan sent him a sign telling him that mapleshade's kits weren't actually hers. why would they tell him if they didn't want him to do anything with that information? also, medicine cats are generally supposed to tell their leaders when they get a sign. he was just doing his job, he clearly didn't mean for anything else to happen. he can't predict the future - instead of blaming ravenwing, you should blame mapleshade. all of those things are her fault because she got herself exiled by breaking the code. she was the one that killed all those cats, she was the one that trained thistleclaw, she was the one that trained tigerstar. all of those actions were her own, not ravenwing's. graystripe turned out pretty well with no one knowing till the last minute, and who cares what starclan says. you're right, the actions were hers, but it doesn't change the fact they still happened because of a snitch called ravenwing graystripe's mate died and he abandoned his kids. Nothing about that situation had a good resolution Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol
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Post by streamflower on May 27, 2023 21:42:28 GMT -5
graystripe turned out pretty well with no one knowing till the last minute, and who cares what starclan says. you're right, the actions were hers, but it doesn't change the fact they still happened because of a snitch called ravenwing graystripe's mate died and he abandoned his kids. Nothing about that situation had a good resolution Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol >Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol But they didn't tell him what to do; they basically said, 'hey just so you know...' and let him make the next choice. As someone said earlier, the sign could have been an interpretation that the kits would be swept away by the river and could have been a warning to protect them, lest something destroy thunderclan. Heck, maybe it was a 'don't let them die to things or going to get really messed up' which clearly they did. We've seen time and again that even experienced medicine cats misinterpret things -- e.g. Cinderpelt seeing the Tiger jumping through Fire, saying that Bramble and Squirrel would destroy Thunderclan. If Starclan had said "Hey tell Oakstar because they shouldn't be here" then fine, but they didn't. They just show the reeds and the river, and nothing else leaving him to interpret as best as his inexperienced self could -- but even an inexperienced medicine cat wouldn't think that Starclan would want them to actively aid in the harming of another cat(s). If he truly believed starclan would be cool with kits being put in danger (which he admitted they would suffer) then he's an even worse a medicine cat than I thought. To be clear, I think Mapleshade is also at fault of course, but to assign zero blame to Ravenwing is incorrect IMO.
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Post by Rippleshine on May 27, 2023 22:44:22 GMT -5
graystripe turned out pretty well with no one knowing till the last minute, and who cares what starclan says. you're right, the actions were hers, but it doesn't change the fact they still happened because of a snitch called ravenwing graystripe's mate died and he abandoned his kids. Nothing about that situation had a good resolution Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol i meant graystripe himself. and also, you mean the same starclan that let ashfur in and gave tigerstar 9 lives? i know i sound like mothwing, but starclan is far from perfect, and is wrong many times.
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Post by Rippleshine on May 27, 2023 22:47:26 GMT -5
mapleshade is very much to blame for a lot of things, but ravenwing is as well, he broke the medicine cat code by letting others be harmed, especially defenseless kits
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 27, 2023 22:53:54 GMT -5
Bluestar was a good leader until she became ill.
I think she gets wayyy too much flack for something that was out of her control. She literally was not thinking right due to Dementia, and if you've ever known someone with it, you would understand that it completely changes the person affected. On top of that, she also has A LOT of trauma that made her act out worse.
People always complain about not having a well written mentally ill character, but when we actually got one in Bluestar, she's looked down on and people hate her. Like people need to make up their minds! She was a perfect depiction of mental illness getting the best of someone.
What she did Brightheart was shitty, I won't deny that. But she also would have NEVER done that had she been right of mind. She was always shown to be reasonable and fair; then she got ill and spiraled out of control.
And for the takes I've seen about her kits: Regardless if her trauma with her kits is her own fault or not, it was still traumatic for her. She felt forced to give them up, to the extent that she was desperate enough to get them to their father's Clan. Mosskit died due to this, and it literally haunts her for a long time. We all make bad mistakes, and unfortunately she laid the price with losing her kit. Just because it was "her fault" doesn't make it any less traumatic and tragic.
Long take, but yeah. I feel very strongly on this one.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 28, 2023 1:03:48 GMT -5
graystripe's mate died and he abandoned his kids. Nothing about that situation had a good resolution Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol >Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol But they didn't tell him what to do; they basically said, 'hey just so you know...' and let him make the next choice. As someone said earlier, the sign could have been an interpretation that the kits would be swept away by the river and could have been a warning to protect them, lest something destroy thunderclan. Heck, maybe it was a 'don't let them die to things or going to get really messed up' which clearly they did. We've seen time and again that even experienced medicine cats misinterpret things -- e.g. Cinderpelt seeing the Tiger jumping through Fire, saying that Bramble and Squirrel would destroy Thunderclan. If Starclan had said "Hey tell Oakstar because they shouldn't be here" then fine, but they didn't. They just show the reeds and the river, and nothing else leaving him to interpret as best as his inexperienced self could -- but even an inexperienced medicine cat wouldn't think that Starclan would want them to actively aid in the harming of another cat(s). If he truly believed starclan would be cool with kits being put in danger (which he admitted they would suffer) then he's an even worse a medicine cat than I thought. To be clear, I think Mapleshade is also at fault of course, but to assign zero blame to Ravenwing is incorrect IMO. Like someone else already said, the sign meaning something else goes heavily into headcanon territory. Telling him that Mapleshade broke the code and is using Birchface's death to save her skin could mean like, literally nothing else. There was not much else he could do, he was told she was doing something bad and he did what he was supposed to, he told his leader about how he interpreted the sign. I don't believe him admitting that the kits would be in danger was an acknowledgement that his actions would cause harm, but more him telling Mapleshade that her actions are causing the kits harm. It's definitely up for interpretation, and I do believe that he should've spoke up against Oakstar, but I don't think he deserves Dark Forest for not speaking up against his leader. Especially since this was a while ago in the Clans, a little after SkyClan left the forest. They stuck strictly to the code, and if Oakstar could exile Mapleshade's kits for being born of a clan-breaking relationship, I wouldn't put it past him to exile anyone defending the kits or speaking against his word
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 28, 2023 1:10:50 GMT -5
graystripe's mate died and he abandoned his kids. Nothing about that situation had a good resolution Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol i meant graystripe himself. and also, you mean the same starclan that let ashfur in and gave tigerstar 9 lives? i know i sound like mothwing, but starclan is far from perfect, and is wrong many times. Yeah? But at the same time, Mothwing is literally the only medicine cat that doesn't believe in StarClan, and one of the very few that speaks up against their decisions. I haven't read DOTC yet so this could be untrue, but the only fault StarClan had made at the time was letting SkyClan get exiled, right? But basically nobody else was opposed to that decision. It's not like they're going to argue against StarClan for agreeing with their decision. Basically, my point is that even to this day in the Clans, they follow StarClan. If we're going to blame Ravenwing, a medicine cat during super old Clan times, for believing in the word of his ancestors, then we should blame modern clan cats for it too
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 28, 2023 3:08:24 GMT -5
I mean Ravenwing straight up said that the kits would suffer, and he still surged forward and told Oakstar full well knowing there'd be consequences for the innocent, and then did absolutely nothing to defend them when they were being exiled. Ravenwing worst medicine cat I can't think of a single medicine cat that would be like, "Yeah these kits are going to be hurt...better do absolutely nothing to help them!" A good medicine cat would defend the kits (or at least attempt to talk down their leader from exiling them). I think we are giving the term "suffer" too much connection towards the events that happened after the exile. When Ravenwing mentioned that, he had absolutely no foresight about what was going to happen. He never knew Oakstar would exile them. Suffer could mean that the kits would be judged for being half-clan, that they'll be shunned for not being good hunters, possibly growing whitout a mother... It didn't mean Ravenwing was like "they're going to drown in the river." Like, as far as we know, he knew absolutely nothing about what was happening. Telling his leader about code-breaking was all he did; he was even noted to have sadness in his eyes. Mapleshade had taken the kittens to the river minutes ago and there had been no problem; and the storm started after she was exiled. (Not to mention the bridge that she crossed later on in the book) As far as Ravenwing was concerned, the kittens were going to be safe if Oakstar exiled them. I'm not trying to paint him as someone who can do no wrong, but as i said before, my hot take is that he was also a victim of Mapleshade's actions; that he never deserved what he got. Also, i think i might agree to disagree on here, since i don't want this to become a Mapleshade debate thread lol.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 28, 2023 3:16:04 GMT -5
Ravenwing was only doing his job, and he took no side during the exile. He never vocally agreed with Oakstar but never stood up to defend Mapleshade. i mentioned it before, but he did basically take a side. hes stated to be “glaring/staring icily” at mapleshade the whole time. even if he didnt verbally say anything, its kinda clear what side he was on. I think this part can be heavily left up for interpretation; imo, i don't think that staring icily = being angry at her, but somebody else may think the opposite. With such little information it can be hard to put into perspective.
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Post by streamflower on May 28, 2023 15:52:39 GMT -5
>Really don't understand why he's being insulted for doing something that StarClan literally told him to do lol But they didn't tell him what to do; they basically said, 'hey just so you know...' and let him make the next choice. As someone said earlier, the sign could have been an interpretation that the kits would be swept away by the river and could have been a warning to protect them, lest something destroy thunderclan. Heck, maybe it was a 'don't let them die to things or going to get really messed up' which clearly they did. We've seen time and again that even experienced medicine cats misinterpret things -- e.g. Cinderpelt seeing the Tiger jumping through Fire, saying that Bramble and Squirrel would destroy Thunderclan. If Starclan had said "Hey tell Oakstar because they shouldn't be here" then fine, but they didn't. They just show the reeds and the river, and nothing else leaving him to interpret as best as his inexperienced self could -- but even an inexperienced medicine cat wouldn't think that Starclan would want them to actively aid in the harming of another cat(s). If he truly believed starclan would be cool with kits being put in danger (which he admitted they would suffer) then he's an even worse a medicine cat than I thought. To be clear, I think Mapleshade is also at fault of course, but to assign zero blame to Ravenwing is incorrect IMO. Like someone else already said, the sign meaning something else goes heavily into headcanon territory. Telling him that Mapleshade broke the code and is using Birchface's death to save her skin could mean like, literally nothing else. There was not much else he could do, he was told she was doing something bad and he did what he was supposed to, he told his leader about how he interpreted the sign. I don't believe him admitting that the kits would be in danger was an acknowledgement that his actions would cause harm, but more him telling Mapleshade that her actions are causing the kits harm. It's definitely up for interpretation, and I do believe that he should've spoke up against Oakstar, but I don't think he deserves Dark Forest for not speaking up against his leader. Especially since this was a while ago in the Clans, a little after SkyClan left the forest. They stuck strictly to the code, and if Oakstar could exile Mapleshade's kits for being born of a clan-breaking relationship, I wouldn't put it past him to exile anyone defending the kits or speaking against his word I mean the sign interpretation is never explicitly stated by Starclan one way or another. Interpreting it Ravenwing's way and a different way are both headcanons. Additionally there is no code that says 'thou shalt snitch,' but there is a "No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan" which is explicitly ignored. Ravenwing knew the kits would be put in danger, whether by his word or not, the second Oakstar exiled them. He had no obligation to tell Oakstar anything -- plenty of cats have lied (or have purposefully witheld the truth) to their leaders to protect other cats (e.g. Squilf lying to Firestar for Leafpool, Mudfur lying to Leopardstar about Mothwing believing in Starclan, Brambleclaw saying he saw Hollyleaf get attacked by Ashfur, etc). Just because there is a truth does not mean it needs to be spoken, especially if the person on the other end can be hurt much more. In all three of these cases each of the cats being defended is guilty of something that would get them in trouble (kits from a medicine cat, a med cat not believing in starclan, actual murder), so I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Ravenwing to have kept quiet for the sake of innocent kits. And idk, while the "code was more strictly followed" idea gets pointed at, I think it has more to do with Oakstar's feud with Riverclan than with the code being strict. If Mapleshade had had kits with a random Windclan tom instead do you really think she and her kits would have been exiled? Ravenwing (and honestly the rest of TC but especially him) had a moral obligation to the 'protecting kits' rule which he failed repeatedly, but that's just my take.
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Post by streamflower on May 28, 2023 15:53:03 GMT -5
I mean Ravenwing straight up said that the kits would suffer, and he still surged forward and told Oakstar full well knowing there'd be consequences for the innocent, and then did absolutely nothing to defend them when they were being exiled. Ravenwing worst medicine cat I can't think of a single medicine cat that would be like, "Yeah these kits are going to be hurt...better do absolutely nothing to help them!" A good medicine cat would defend the kits (or at least attempt to talk down their leader from exiling them). I think we are giving the term "suffer" too much connection towards the events that happened after the exile. When Ravenwing mentioned that, he had absolutely no foresight about what was going to happen. He never knew Oakstar would exile them. Suffer could mean that the kits would be judged for being half-clan, that they'll be shunned for not being good hunters, possibly growing whitout a mother... It didn't mean Ravenwing was like "they're going to drown in the river." Like, as far as we know, he knew absolutely nothing about what was happening. Telling his leader about code-breaking was all he did; he was even noted to have sadness in his eyes. Mapleshade had taken the kittens to the river minutes ago and there had been no problem; and the storm started after she was exiled. (Not to mention the bridge that she crossed later on in the book) As far as Ravenwing was concerned, the kittens were going to be safe if Oakstar exiled them. I'm not trying to paint him as someone who can do no wrong, but as i said before, my hot take is that he was also a victim of Mapleshade's actions; that he never deserved what he got. Also, i think i might agree to disagree on here, since i don't want this to become a Mapleshade debate thread lol. I mean by saying we give 'suffer' too much attention is saying we give any interpretation too much attention. Like yeah as far as wel know he knew nothing, but that doesn't mean he didn't know anything. He had an obligation to protect the kits as per the warrior code -- it doesn't matter their clan status, bottom line is he had a duty to protect them and failed. While I don't think he deserved murder and do believe he was a victim in a way, I do think he is by far the worst medicine cat and deserved some modicum of punishment (not necessarily death though) for his actions. And that's totally fine, agree to disagree
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Post by Rippleshine on May 29, 2023 7:05:24 GMT -5
i mentioned it before, but he did basically take a side. hes stated to be “glaring/staring icily” at mapleshade the whole time. even if he didnt verbally say anything, its kinda clear what side he was on. I think this part can be heavily left up for interpretation; imo, i don't think that staring icily = being angry at her, but somebody else may think the opposite. With such little information it can be hard to put into perspective. i don't see how it could mean anything other than anger and bias
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Post by Darkwillow on May 30, 2023 19:42:03 GMT -5
I love Clear Sky and his character development I hate Sparkpelt :) I don't mind that Bramblestar gave up his clan so easily, I just really despise the thought of Squilf being leader
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Post by Darkwillow on May 31, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5
Oh! I also don't like Briarlight. I didn't like reading her parts, and there are many times she should've died but didn't.
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Post by Katanaheart on May 31, 2023 11:43:26 GMT -5
-One of the TigerXDove kits should have died on the journey back to ShadowClan. Preferably Lightkit or Shadowkit since I care very little for either of their adult iterations. (Spire could have taken over Shadowsight’s role with more interesting results as he was named after Spiresight.)
-Birchkit should have also died along with Rowankit as it would have made Tigerstar’s temper tantrum a little more “reasonable,” in regards to taking over RiverClan.
-Snowbush and Dewnose should not have been the fathers of their respective litters. Snowbush should have been taken by the owl instead of Ambermoon given how lackluster his death was.
-The toms should have moved to their respective she-cat’s clan to not continue Dovewing’s set precedent. (Although with the way SpireXFringe is going as of Sky, they may move to SkyClan anyway. The Clan they should have moved too in the first place.)
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