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Post by Hollyfall on Sept 21, 2022 12:16:48 GMT -5
There's been at least one impulsive and eager protagonist nearly every arc, most of whom have gotten in trouble before. Nightheart isn't really all that unique, except for the source of his conflict. We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think Nightheart is quite different in the way he goes about what he says and does. Actively doing the opposite of what he's told to do simply because he doesn't want to be bossed around, not letting his injuries show by not letting himself limp, I think it's interesting in my opinion. It's fine to dislike Nightheart, but I think he's interesting. Coming from someone who considers themselves neutral on Nightheart (I like him the most out of the protagonists, but I'm finding him to be kind of irritating), he's definitely unique in his character arc and personality. My problem is how it's being written. He's coming across as whiny, self-loathing, and just...annoying. He certainly says that he's compared to Firestar, but we don't see it? It feels like the authors are going "tell, don't show" because the only time Firestar's ever brought up in conversation to Nightheart was that he was named after him as a means of honoring him. Otherwise Nightheart just bemoans about wanting to be unique and prove himself over and over again. He's all well and good to be his own cat of course, but wallowing in self-pity or openly disobeying orders just makes him kind of unsympathetic. Not that other cats like Squirrelflight or Sparkpelt are helping matters much either and are giving him way too much of a hard time when it comes to the subject. While the Clan obviously isn't treating him as well as they could be, I feel Nightheart's also taking it a lot of it way too personally (eg. Lionblaze's concern for him over being a new warrior and not his character). Just my opinion on the topic. People are allowed to like Nightheart, and I do as well to an extent. He's definitely interesting from a writing perspective, but it seems either he's an unreliable narrator (which definitely would be interesting), or the editors are going for telling us, and not showing us.
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Post by halogen on Sept 21, 2022 12:57:48 GMT -5
SHADOWCLAN QUEEN CONTENT edit: i swear on my LIFE if brightheart dies, im gonna be so mad. because then we're gonna get a cloudtail depression arc. she should die alongside cloudtail. I mean I'm just happy to see them finally tamp down on their tendency of making TPB generation live disproportionately longer than previous generations, and most mates not conveniently dying at the exact same time is just how life works, and preferable to forcing a contrived way to make the death seem dramatic and heroic to any old cat that was important before, like what they did with Graystripe in ALITM.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2022 14:38:19 GMT -5
Hmm. I think the amount of criticism Nightheart is getting is surprisingly too harsh. It's only been two books (second one isn't even out yet) and he's still fairly young timeline wise. I feel like one shouldn't mix up his character's morals, behavior and development with the fact that the Erins are lacking on their writing narrative. When to me its pretty clear, at least from the get-go, what angle they were going with his character, but that's just me. I still fail to see how he's "whiney" or "angsty" when the way he developed is perfectly explained already, and why he ended up the way he did. It's realistic even, more so than a lot of recent other protagonists. I fail to see the other sides of the story when they feel much more unsympathetic imo. People keep saying there's no "showing" of why Nightheart felt pressured, when the ceremony was literally just the confirmation for all of his doubts leading up to that point. And considering how people are treating him after, it's just further confirmation and proof. As for Finchlight, we do see her defend her brother, but not after he receives his new name, so we never see how she reacted to that, only when everyone else got angry at him for rejecting the ceremony. But it's obvious now that she ended up taking her mother's side in the end because what ever energy she has toward her son is definitely rolling off to her. Finchlight also wasn't as amazingly supportive as people seem to think in the last book, she was just better at it than her mother. And unsurprisingly the rest of the clan still don't respect his new name, so him wanting to try and prove himself, isn't just a thing he was trying to do for just one cat, it was for everyone else that were still judging him. Was he being reckless, of course. But its pretty much because he's youth and acting under pressure and trying to surpass to standards that he never will be able to. Just because we see Nightheart's thoughts of doubt, sadness, disappointment, and other negative feelings, doesn't change how his clanmates are treating him. Regardless if one thinks he's a unreliable narrator, there's a difference between for example: Shadowsight thinking Mothwing intentionally was trying to punish him because of her status, vs Nightheart feeling genuinely hurt by the judgement his own kin and clan were blatantly giving him. Other things I want to ramble about a bit: The other clanmates don't need to bring up Firestar to point out how much annoying pressure that put on his legacy. Firestar is so overly glorified in the clans at this point, even other clans roll their eyes at it. Newer generations have gotten to the point that they think they have a reputation to uphold, because of the "standard" Firestar has set. Because he was known as "the great leader of the forest". The only difference now is that we're seeing it from one of his kin's pov, down the line more. We don't get this with Alderheart because his pov was overshadowed mostly by Twig and Violet, and Spark didn't even get a pov. But now it's confirmed that they had similar situations, just it wasn't in the spotlight as much. ThunderClan is so caught up in their legacy of Firestar, and representing firekin, that they've become "stuck up and self righteous" with annoying standards, and I fail to see how that's surprising.
Nightheart not going with his mother and sister, imo, is an understandable choice as well. He was an apprentice, him and Finchlight are two different cats. I think it's understandable for him to be hesitant and unsure about whether to stay or go from the clan that was raising him during such strange times. Ya know, when a tyrannical murderous vengeful spirit was using his leader's body, manipulating the masses, and causing confusion. Sparkpelt was labelled as a disloyal, and was exiled, and Finchlight went with her of her own accord, but to Nightheart at the time it felt like it was them abandoning everything that he knew up to that point, including him. Do I think he's too harsh on them for this? Yes. But at the same time, one has to also note that Sparkpelt never did go back for him too, and only returned to the clans after the impostor was disposed of. It's also obvious in the time Spark and Finch were together they formed a much closer bond, which probably caused Spark to play favorites, which is still yikes no matter how you look at it.
Regardless of how one looks at the few moments of his life too, Nightheart, and Finchlight, still barely had a strong connection with Sparkpelt because of the situation surrounding their father's death. Sparkpelt was still grieving, she felt distant, and another cat had to step in, Sorrelstripe, to nurse them. Even if Nightheart didn't remember, he'd obviously find out about this stuff later when he's older, and who knows, maybe another reason why Sparkpelt was also so distant IS because he looked more like his father. We don't know, in fact, we don't know a lot of the details about how some of these cats felt about those blurred moments between these times. But we do know Nightheart's.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 21, 2022 14:40:08 GMT -5
Honestly, if even the people who liked Nightheart in the first book are finding him annoying, I'd say there's a problem. Again, it'd be one thing if it were a consistent thing and if maybe we'd gotten some glimpses of it in TBC, but that never happens. I can see how Sparkpelt's and even Bramblestar's words could be seen as comparing him to Firestar, but the problem with Nightheart is that he keeps acting like the entire Clan is doing it, when this hasn't been the case at all unless you also want to count Thornclaw's words in TBC. Even in this excerpt, it's said that Lilyheart and Squirrelflight constantly failed him because they kept comparing him to Firestar, even though that literally never happened in the previous book at all.
They failed him because he'd tried to go after a hawk, a bird of prey that is known for killing cats. Squirrelflight even says that she had faith in him doing better than he did! Firestar was never a factor in any of this at all! And then there's him being angry at Sparkpelt and acting like she hadn't been there for him throughout his kithood, which I'd totally understand if this were true. But it isn't. Actually, unless I'm missing something, this is the timeline from Larksong and Flickerkit's deaths until Sparkpelt's last scene: Larksong dies the same day the kits are born. ThunderClan visits the Sisters the next day. Leafpool joins the Clan for a hunt on what's implied to be the next day; a Gathering occurs that very night. Squirrelflight and SkyClan speak with the Sisters the morning after; Squirrelflight has a nightmare about Moonlight's kits that very night. Moonlight starts to give birth as dawn nears; the Clans attack and Squirrelflight and Leafpool go to StarClan. When Squirrelflight goes back to ThunderClan, it's mentioned as being the afternoon and that it's been days since the battle; she goes back to StarClan later that day before returning to the world of the living; Leafpool's vigil is held that very night. Sparkpelt plays with her kits the next day. There's another Gathering at the end of the book, so this entire subplot with Sparkpelt takes place in less than a moon. Here is Sparkpelt's final scene in SqH, btw. So even if it had been longer, Sparkpelt is still shown to be putting in the effort by the end. And unless it gets revealed later on that she ended up relapsing, for Nightheart to be this angry about it is just excessive! And if the inconsistencies aren't intentional, then that just means the timeline has been messed up just to make Nightheart look sympathetic! And when it comes to writing, there's nothing I hate more than that! And another thing, even though she had to be encouraged, Sparkpelt actually does nurse the kits while she's grieving. And it's weird that Sorrelstripe is treated as more of a mother to Flamepaw, when really, the one who spends the most time with them is Daisy.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2022 15:27:52 GMT -5
If people are changing their minds over an excerpt of the second book, that isn't even out yet, then I'm not sure what to say about that. Personally, I don't like to judge characters, or at least criticize them so harshly until at least 4 to 5 books in.
It wouldn't make sense to get glimpses of this in TBC because it wasn't the focus. We didn't even know who would be the main characters of the next arc at that point.
As for Nightheart's feelings about his clan judging him, that is just typically how things are when someone feels like they're being judged by the masses. It's no secret that Firekin practically run ThunderClan, and they're all in high positions in some way. Bramblestar himself is mates with one, who also is deputy, and both of these cats are indeed Nightheart's grandparents. While the medicine cat is another one of his relatives, and more of the higher profile cats are also firekin too, such as Lionblaze, Ivypool, etc. Thornclaw had a point when he pointed out how they've been practically running the clan in previous arcs, there was that much truth at least. And it's because of this that Clan Culture for ThunderClan has changed so much over the generations.
Nightheart's pov is that he feels like he's being judged by the masses of his clan, he's put on a pedestal because of his direct lineage, and especially after everything that happened the last few arcs, it makes sense. At least to me it does. However, there's a difference between him feeling the pressure of clan expectation, vs it being blatantly shown in the books and heavily implied via Squirrel, Spark, etc. And considering how his clanmates reacted to his warrior ceremony, and how they're treating him now, it only further confirms Nightheart's doubts, hence why he felt the need to prove himself so badly. Myrtlebloom probably meant no harm by what she said, but it was insensitive, and it's obvious that is just the norm of how the clan cats were thinking. She is a mouth piece, just like Thornclaw was in previous books. This tends to happen in general when writing stories about characters in large character pools, surrounding their environment. They interact with key players, and then side characters are mouth pieces, and this isn't the first time the Erins have done this.
And also are you referring to this piece here:
"He narrowed his eyes. He had failed twice as an apprentice, both in assessments having to do with his judgment when it came to hunting. But he was a warrior now, and this time he wasn’t going to make any mistakes." Because it makes it pretty clear it's referring to his poor judgment during hunting, and not the judgment he endures as a character that he perceives. Unless people are referring to something else?
Or unless you meant this: "He was determined to prove he was a good warrior and make every cat in the Clan forget that it had taken him three attempts to pass his warrior assessment." Which is true, and also proves my point of what I said. He's trying to prove himself to his clan as Nightheart, so they'd forget about his past failures.
"The mouse was small, but its sweet smell made his mouth water as he looked for a space to settle down to eat it. Sparkpelt and Finchlight were sharing a pigeon outside the warriors’ den, and he padded toward them. His mother and sister looked up as he approached, but then exchanged a disapproving glance. Shock pulsed in his paws. They don’t want to eat with me. He stared at them, stung by their unkindness. Are they still angry that I changed my name to Nightheart? He’d never been as close to them as they were to each other—the impostor who’d pretended to be Bramblestar had exiled them when he’d been an apprentice, and they’d had to leave him in camp—but they were his kin. Shouldn’t they welcome him no matter what he’d done, especially when he’d just recovered from an injury?"
This is just a fact. Because at the end of the day, even if Finchlight did bond with her mother, regardless of Sparkpelt relapsing or not, it doesn't change the possibility that maybe Nightheart didn't. Again, Finch and Night are two different characters, obviously reacting two different ways. But him saying they weren't as close, isn't him accusing her of being neglectful, he doesn't even seem angry, he was more upset and mortified at their reaction. I'm not sure where supposed this "unjustified anger" for them is coming from.
And Daisy is a mother figure it practically the majority of the clan. So either way it just means to Nightheart, Sorrel and Daisy were more of a mother to him than Sparkpelt.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Sept 21, 2022 18:19:14 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something.
Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused.
It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 21, 2022 18:45:44 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. might just be me, but i see nightheart as more whiney and pathetic than how jayfeather used to be
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 21, 2022 19:07:43 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. might just be me, but i see nightheart as more whiney and pathetic than how jayfeather used to be Compared to Nightheart, we also got to see Jaypaw being constantly underestimated by everyone except for his siblings. Whereas with Nightheart, it really is more of a telling and not showing situation for the most part, so it feels alot more contrived. Seriously, how hard could it have been to show even just one cat comparing him to Firestar who wasn't in his immediate family in the previous book? And besides having two completely different stories, Jayfeather also focused on other things besides his resentment—in his case, the prophecy—whereas Nightheart just always seems angry and not in a fun way, either. I've said this before and I'll say it again, but just because two or more characters seem similar doesn't really mean much—it's important to consider the context as well.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 21, 2022 19:36:01 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. It baffles me too. Especially in Nightheart's case when it's his own kin, and closer immediate family putting expectations on him. And now the rest of the clan are giving him flack too just because he rejected the first name he got, which for the most part just confirms his fear of their judgement toward them. I feel like people are making it seem like his feelings are nonsensical, or even doesn't matter compared to other characters, which is?? Like suddenly he's a brat, and his feelings should be dismissed, just because he's unhappy with his circumstances. Jayfeather, even with his circumstances, was just objectively worse. He whined about how he was treated, both inwardly AND outwardly, snapped at other cats, including his kin and his own mentors. Snapped at other cats outside of his clan, for even just showing him some sort of sympathy. And continued to have this behavior even before the secret of his bloodline got out. Even with the addition of the prophecy, he had no reason to be rude to Brightheart, and so aggressive the way he was. I get his frustration, and I think he's allowed to be upset, but when compared to Nightheart, he was worse.
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Post by Jaysnow on Sept 21, 2022 19:39:01 GMT -5
Nightheart is still my favorite protagonist. However he could be much better than he is at the moment. I don't hate him or anything. I still kinda feel bad for him.
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Post by Hollyfall on Sept 21, 2022 20:26:26 GMT -5
Nightheart is still my favorite protagonist. However he could be much better than he is at the moment. I don't hate him or anything. I still kinda feel bad for him. Likewise. I have my gripes with his character (mostly how it's being written with their "tell, don't show" narrative going on) but overall I'd say he's got the most going on for him. I'm find just finding both him and how people are treating him to be irritating.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Sept 21, 2022 22:10:14 GMT -5
SHADOWCLAN QUEEN CONTENT edit: i swear on my LIFE if brightheart dies, im gonna be so mad. because then we're gonna get a cloudtail depression arc. she should die alongside cloudtail. I mean I'm just happy to see them finally tamp down on their tendency of making TPB generation live disproportionately longer than previous generations, and most mates not conveniently dying at the exact same time is just how life works, and preferable to forcing a contrived way to make the death seem dramatic and heroic to any old cat that was important before, like what they did with Graystripe in ALITM. i dont care if its not how life works they should die beside each other
also ?? idk if you've noticed but this book series isn't realistic. in the slightest. they can die alongside each other if whoever the hell makes the decisions thinks they can
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Sept 21, 2022 22:15:16 GMT -5
also why the hell is myrtlebloom talking about how much people would give their lives to be firekin? YOU'RE firekin? ON BOTH SIDES OF YOUR FAMILY????
also everyone's making me rlly pissed off in this excerpt why'd they make everyone seem so annoying and rude. like it's not your business what nightheart's name is lol. he still has the 'heart' in his name so what's the problem?? sorry that the crushing weight of living up to the expectations of everyone around him who expects him to be like a guy who died ages before he was even born that he doesnt even look like (and to be frank, has no personality traits that really relate to firestar) is something that he doesn't want. he literally changed one tiny bit of his name and the whole clan flips its so annoying why'd they write it like that
sorry myrtlebloom why dont you go change your name to firebloom if it makes you that annoyed. "go take back your real name" shut up omg its none of ur business
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Post by Punkpaw on Sept 21, 2022 22:39:07 GMT -5
Getting real sick of the writing behind Thunderclan for this arc. I know it's not a common story arc, but I have a hard time believing that its own are really this unaccepting of somebody that wants to be himself rather than their own dead leader, or acting like asserting his identity is rejecting Firestar. At this rate, I'm actually glad Graystripe is dead; whoever's heading this arc would probably have him actively snubbing Nightheart and moaning about how his dear best friend deserved better.
Like, I get that this is meant to be leading to push Nightheart to say "**** this" and hop ship to Shadowclan reverse Tawnypelt style, but it feels so stupid.
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Post by Aku on Sept 22, 2022 2:39:45 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. My best guess as to why could be Jayfeather was the "first" character to really act in such a way that really stuck with many of the younger readers (who have now grown up), so he holds a lot of nostalgia to many fans. Seeing someone kinda like your old favorite (and Jayfeather was pretty popular back in the day, likely still is, I don't know) can make some people pretty defensive for some reason. Doesn't make it right, though :/
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Sept 22, 2022 2:43:43 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. My best guess as to why could be Jayfeather was the "first" character to really act in such a way that really stuck with many of the younger readers (who have now grown up), so he holds a lot of nostalgia to many fans. Seeing someone kinda like your old favorite (and Jayfeather was pretty popular back in the day, likely still is, I don't know) can make some people pretty defensive for some reason. Doesn't make it right, though :/ Yeah, that's true. I love Jayfeather, but he really isn't that different to Nightheart imho
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Post by halogen on Sept 22, 2022 10:00:25 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. I feel being underestimated due to ableism is more compelling/sympathetic/relatable than being supposedly compared to your great grandfather that half the Clan shares, which seems more like a "first world problem" and contrived that it somehow only affects him just because of his dumb name. Plus it felt more deliberate with Jayfeather and the three in general, like basically a character-driven arc exploring what would happen if you take a bratty teenager with a chip on his shoulder and gave him access to power that is a terrifying force in the context of what the Clans believe in. They kind of dropped this arc and just turned it into "they are Good Guys who will save the Clans and can do no wrong because destiny says so, and also we won't let Jayfeather make the dramatic kind of choices that his character is set up to make with the power he has because Destiny", but at least that was was they were clearly going for at first and it was an interesting direction. While Nightheart's brattiness isn't really setting up for any interesting character moments yet, rather than the character arc being the plot because the characters have the power to shape everything by their own will, it's just a distraction from the plot.
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 22, 2022 10:43:10 GMT -5
Not really a jab or anything, but I noticed something. Jayfeather was just as obnoxious, if not worse, than Nightheart when he was younger. He also took out his insecurities on other cats around him, and continues to do so. Yet gets little to no flack for it, or its excused. It just baffles me considering how much hate I see thrown towards Nightheart, when Jayfeather was way worse when he was young. I dislike Jayfeather, and as of right now I'm not a hug fan of Nightheart, but I disliked Jayfeather for his rudeness and with Nightheart I dislike him for not listening and messing things up due to him not listening. I never thought of Jayfeather and Nightheart being comparable though, that's interesting.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 22, 2022 13:41:53 GMT -5
ShadowClan eating frogs, my beloved <3
Also really hoping this catmint shortage means we'll get a big greencough plague and awful winter a la the Great Starvation, and thin out the clans a good amount.
I personally kinda like Sunbeam's chapters. I'm curious to see if she develops complex interpersonal relationships in her clan, and primarily character-driven conflicts are my favorite to read (provided they're written compellingly).
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 22, 2022 14:23:19 GMT -5
I don't know if Nightheart is "whiny". I think his angst is based in a legitimate issue, and being upset about legacy pressure is understandable. However, the way he goes about solving the problem is frustrating, because he's terrible at honestly communicating his feelings and reasons, instead resorting to emotional outbursts that just cats' perception of him worse. He never clearly explains why having a legacy name bothers him so much, beyond complaining that "it doesn't fit because I'm not ginger" (which...plenty of characters have names unrelated to their physical appearance, so that's not unique to him). Looking at his conflict with his mother, and the follow-up with Myrtlebloom: “I only asked for a name that suits me better than Flameheart!” he objected. “What’s wrong with that?” Sparkpelt’s ears flattened. “It’s disrespectful, that’s what’s wrong.” “To whom?” He stared at her. “To you?” “To Firestar,” Sparkpelt snapped. “How can I be disrespectful to a cat I never met?” Nightheart tried to hold his anger in check, but it was impossible. She was being so unfair. “You never met him either!” “I don’t need to have met him to know what a great warrior he was,” Sparkpelt snapped back. “So what if he was a great warrior?” Nightheart’s tail quivered. “Does that mean every warrior has to have a name like his?” “His kin should,” Sparkpelt growled. “Why?” Nightheart mewed hotly. “Are you scared his kin will forget who he is? Or are you scared the rest of the Clan might forget we’re related to him?” Sparkpelt scrambled to her paws, her pelt spiking along her spine. “How dare you?” she hissed. “I gave you that name because kin is important to me, and it breaks my heart that it’s not important to you!” “If kin’s so important to you, why are you giving me such a hard time?” he retorted. “Because I don’t understand why you’re not honored to be related to Firestar!” Her tail was lashing with fury. “You chose to turn your back on his memory no matter how much you hurt your family. Firestar would never have done such a thing.” You don’t know that. Nightheart swallowed back the words. She wanted to be angry. Nothing he said would change that. “It was a shock,” Myrtlebloom told him. “You changed your name in front of everyone. Without even warning Sparkpelt.” “It’s not like I rejected my father’s name,” Nightheart grumbled. “I could understand Sparkpelt being angry if I’d done that.” “But you did reject Firestar’s name,” Myrtlebloom mewed gently. “In a way.” “Why shouldn’t I? I’m nothing like him,” Nightheart mewed. “My fur’s not even ginger, it’s black. Flamekit was a ridiculous name to give me. Anyway, I kept part of his name, remember? I’m Nightheart.” Myrtlebloom didn’t look terribly impressed, and Nightheart’s frustration hardened. “Can’t any cat in the Clan just accept me for who I am?” [...] “It’s not that I’m ungrateful for having such great kin,” he conceded. “I’m proud of them. Firestar was a great leader—” “See?” Myrtlebloom’s eyes brightened. “You can see how important your kin are.” She nudged him with a flick of her tail. “It’s not too late. Everyone will realize that it was just a mistake and that you’ve changed your mind after thinking about it. You can go and ask for your real name back.” Nightheart glared at her. “Nightheart is my real name.” Anger was throbbing afresh beneath his pelt. I’m never asking for my old name back! “No cat gets to decide what kind of warrior I am. Only I get to decide that.” And the scene from River when he requests the public name change: "I don't know yet," Flamepaw confessed. "I just know I want something that reflects the cat I am, not some cat from the past that you all wish me to be." Hi anger overflowed, and he spat the words out. "I'm not Firestar! I don't even look like him, in case you haven't noticed. I will think of a perfect name for myself and let you know." I bolded the lines where Nightheart is actively speaking aloud some sort of explanation for why he changed his name.
Do you see the issue here? We as the reader understand why it bothers Nightheart so much, because we can see his internal monologue. But other characters can't. They only know what he tells them. And what is the justification he gives for changing his name? That he's not ginger and never met Firestar so therefore his name is awful and prevents him from being "his own cat".
Now obviously, that's not all there is to it. But he never once clearly tells other characters, "I feel like being named after Firestar puts way more pressure on me to be exactly like him, and my name reminds the cats around me of him instead of seeing me for me. Even though Firestar was a great warrior, I'd like to change my name to regain a sense of individual identity." Instead he just grumbles to himself and lashes out emotionally, and gives shallow reasons the amount to "I don't like the name and don't care about Firestar". No wonder other cats are reacting poorly.
Like put yourself in Sparkpelt's shoes: you name your kid after your grandfather, because he was a good person, and familial connection is important to you; then your kid turns 15 and angrily denounces their birth name in front of everyone, the only reason given that he doesn't physically resemble the grandfather, "and also he's dead so why does anyone care if i share his name", and when asked what he wants to be called, basically says "idk but anything besides THAT". i'd be offended too.
I also understand that part of all this is because he's still young and immature, and that does explain his poor emotional communication skills. However, as someone who is...not very emotional, it still annoys me to read. Same reason I never cared for Dove/Ivy.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 22, 2022 14:48:16 GMT -5
sparkpelt also comes off as annoying. she should have had the firestar legacy subplot/conflict bc sparks r related to flames/fires, and she actually LOOKS like firestar.
and also, most of thunderclan can be traced back to firekin (mostly thanks to cloudtail's side and lion x cinder kin having kits with other sides of the tree, such as spotfur getting with blossom's kit stemleaf). thunderclan just comes off as mega stupid and annoying bc of this firekin nonsense. most of y'all r firekin in some way, stfu.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 22, 2022 15:17:40 GMT -5
I don't know if Nightheart is "whiny". I think his angst is based in a legitimate issue, and being upset about legacy pressure is understandable. However, the way he goes about solving the problem is frustrating, because he's terrible at honestly communicating his feelings and reasons, instead resorting to emotional outbursts that just cats' perception of him worse. He never clearly explains why having a legacy name bothers him so much, beyond complaining that "it doesn't fit because I'm not ginger" (which...plenty of characters have names unrelated to their physical appearance, so that's not unique to him). Honestly, I think you've described my main issue with Nightheart perfectly! Characters never communicate in this series, but I personally feel like Nightheart takes it to another level and that's what makes him so irritating to read about, never mind that all he's done so far is be angry all the time and blame other cats for his own irresponsibility without there being any progress except for a prefix change. The fact that most of the Clan is related to Firestar in some way by this point anyway also does tend to take one out of it a bit, at least for me personally, on top of his overreactions to the point where certain events just become inconsistent (again, I'm still holding out hope that it's intentional). Either way, so far, Nightheart just hasn't been all that fun to read about.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Sept 22, 2022 16:29:29 GMT -5
Eee
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Sept 22, 2022 18:56:01 GMT -5
Saw people elsewhere say that Sparkpelt was forced and ruined in this and I was dreading to see what they had done with her, but nah, imo she's totally in-character. Based on all the stuff she said about SkyClan in AVOS, it makes sense to me that she'd be a stickler for tradition. (not trying to diss Spark btw, I've always loved her)
I really hope nothing bad happens to Rowankit and oooohhhh I'm getting scared for Brightheart. Also loving the RiverClan plot so far I 100% agree. If anything, Sparkpelt is one of the cats who is actually annoyingly in character. I would've loved to see her be a loving and supportive mother, but the way she's reacting to this is a very in-character reaction. Now, what they're doing to Finchlight on the other hand is super frustrating for me (we can't say it's really out of character since she barely has any characterization yet, but still). My only hope is that maybe Finchlight will become more and more obsessive about tradition and all and end up becoming some type of antagonist (as many of us had hoped for when the arc was first announced).
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 22, 2022 20:18:40 GMT -5
I don't know if Nightheart is "whiny". I think his angst is based in a legitimate issue, and being upset about legacy pressure is understandable. However, the way he goes about solving the problem is frustrating, because he's terrible at honestly communicating his feelings and reasons, instead resorting to emotional outbursts that just cats' perception of him worse. He never clearly explains why having a legacy name bothers him so much, beyond complaining that "it doesn't fit because I'm not ginger" (which...plenty of characters have names unrelated to their physical appearance, so that's not unique to him). Looking at his conflict with his mother, and the follow-up with Myrtlebloom: “I only asked for a name that suits me better than Flameheart!” he objected. “What’s wrong with that?” Sparkpelt’s ears flattened. “It’s disrespectful, that’s what’s wrong.” “To whom?” He stared at her. “To you?” “To Firestar,” Sparkpelt snapped. “How can I be disrespectful to a cat I never met?” Nightheart tried to hold his anger in check, but it was impossible. She was being so unfair. “You never met him either!” “I don’t need to have met him to know what a great warrior he was,” Sparkpelt snapped back. “So what if he was a great warrior?” Nightheart’s tail quivered. “Does that mean every warrior has to have a name like his?” “His kin should,” Sparkpelt growled. “Why?” Nightheart mewed hotly. “Are you scared his kin will forget who he is? Or are you scared the rest of the Clan might forget we’re related to him?” Sparkpelt scrambled to her paws, her pelt spiking along her spine. “How dare you?” she hissed. “I gave you that name because kin is important to me, and it breaks my heart that it’s not important to you!” “If kin’s so important to you, why are you giving me such a hard time?” he retorted. “Because I don’t understand why you’re not honored to be related to Firestar!” Her tail was lashing with fury. “You chose to turn your back on his memory no matter how much you hurt your family. Firestar would never have done such a thing.” You don’t know that. Nightheart swallowed back the words. She wanted to be angry. Nothing he said would change that. “It was a shock,” Myrtlebloom told him. “You changed your name in front of everyone. Without even warning Sparkpelt.” “It’s not like I rejected my father’s name,” Nightheart grumbled. “I could understand Sparkpelt being angry if I’d done that.” “But you did reject Firestar’s name,” Myrtlebloom mewed gently. “In a way.” “Why shouldn’t I? I’m nothing like him,” Nightheart mewed. “My fur’s not even ginger, it’s black. Flamekit was a ridiculous name to give me. Anyway, I kept part of his name, remember? I’m Nightheart.” Myrtlebloom didn’t look terribly impressed, and Nightheart’s frustration hardened. “Can’t any cat in the Clan just accept me for who I am?” [...] “It’s not that I’m ungrateful for having such great kin,” he conceded. “I’m proud of them. Firestar was a great leader—” “See?” Myrtlebloom’s eyes brightened. “You can see how important your kin are.” She nudged him with a flick of her tail. “It’s not too late. Everyone will realize that it was just a mistake and that you’ve changed your mind after thinking about it. You can go and ask for your real name back.” Nightheart glared at her. “Nightheart is my real name.” Anger was throbbing afresh beneath his pelt. I’m never asking for my old name back! “No cat gets to decide what kind of warrior I am. Only I get to decide that.” And the scene from River when he requests the public name change: "I don't know yet," Flamepaw confessed. "I just know I want something that reflects the cat I am, not some cat from the past that you all wish me to be." Hi anger overflowed, and he spat the words out. "I'm not Firestar! I don't even look like him, in case you haven't noticed. I will think of a perfect name for myself and let you know." I bolded the lines where Nightheart is actively speaking aloud some sort of explanation for why he changed his name.
Do you see the issue here? We as the reader understand why it bothers Nightheart so much, because we can see his internal monologue. But other characters can't. They only know what he tells them. And what is the justification he gives for changing his name? That he's not ginger and never met Firestar so therefore his name is awful and prevents him from being "his own cat".
Now obviously, that's not all there is to it. But he never once clearly tells other characters, "I feel like being named after Firestar puts way more pressure on me to be exactly like him, and my name reminds the cats around me of him instead of seeing me for me. Even though Firestar was a great warrior, I'd like to change my name to regain a sense of individual identity." Instead he just grumbles to himself and lashes out emotionally, and gives shallow reasons the amount to "I don't like the name and don't care about Firestar". No wonder other cats are reacting poorly.
Like put yourself in Sparkpelt's shoes: you name your kid after your grandfather, because he was a good person, and familial connection is important to you; then your kid turns 15 and angrily denounces their birth name in front of everyone, the only reason given that he doesn't physically resemble the grandfather, "and also he's dead so why does anyone care if i share his name", and when asked what he wants to be called, basically says "idk but anything besides THAT". i'd be offended too.
I also understand that part of all this is because he's still young and immature, and that does explain his poor emotional communication skills. However, as someone who is...not very emotional, it still annoys me to read. Same reason I never cared for Dove/Ivy.
I somewhat agree with you, I see what you're talking about, but again at the same time, I still think Nightheart is justifiable in how he felt. As I've said in my previous replies, the way he behaves in the first book was him going along with everything, every cat was saying for him while he was an apprentice. His fear of being perceived, and the pressure his mother was putting on him, were things that he was weary of, but as some pointed out, not outwardly said much. Confirmation wasn't solidified (at least not so blatantly) until NOW. Up to this point, it was just him suspecting it, and it being implied, with some statements from Squirrel, Thorn, Finch, and Spark, etc. As an apprentice, he followed orders, did what he was told, was constantly judged, even at gatherings, but he never complained about it much, even outwardly. Yes he was upset sometimes, yes he did feel disheartened, but that because his confidence was constantly being jabbed at, and he was trying to brush it off. He focused much harder on trying to be HIMSELF, and proving that he can do it on his own, and not just because of the bloodline running through his veins. What his higher kin kept chalking all of his accomplishments to eventually. It was never exactly a win win situation for him. It was either, he wasn't living up to his name and blood legacy, or anything he succeeded in was because of his name and blood legacy. This is why the moment of his name change was such an impactful moment. It quite literally crumbled him. Because at that point he didn't care anymore, he was just finally happy to get his warrior name, and being known for something that HE was known for. So him still being named after Firestar came off like a slap to the face. Hence why he got upset again: Like in this example. Flameheart is quite blatantly a nod to Fireheart, no matter how you look at it. And it's now confirmed in the first chapter of the second book, that was very much the intent behind it. So his feelings of resentfulness is understandable. And then when he says he didn't want the name, and Bramblestar changes it to something that reflected him more, "Nightheart", since his coat is black, he was more okay with that. This should have been the compromise, but it wasn't something that Sparkpelt, or Finchlight, and it seems the rest of the clan, was satisfied with. They don't even see it as his real name, Sparkpelt and Finchlight have gotten to the point where they're isolating him on purpose and now he's left on his own. They're offended he didn't want to be named after Firestar regardless of whenever or however he wanted his name change. There is no pleasing them, like Nightheart pointed out, there's no way to argue with them, they've made up their minds. It doesn't matter how different he approached this situation, it would have most likely still ended with the same results, his clanmates rejecting him because he rejected Firestar. And personally... I prefer characters that make choices based on mind over emotions, but it doesn't mean I still don't understand said characters when they do make emotional choices. Nightheart is still young, it's only been two books, technically one book and 4 more chapters, and the amount of harsh criticism he's getting, to me at least, seems much.
And the other thing is that, I can see now and understand why people say that Nightheart's character reads as trans-coded, because as a trans person myself, I can understand exactly what he's going through. Having to live up to the expectations of your family, being judged by those around you that perceive you. Always trying to do good by your family, I suppose clan in this case, but then feeling upset when your individuality is being stomped out. And then the struggle to want to keep it when it at least comes to your name, something that is supposed to reflect you and make you happy. Nightheart wanting to be referred to as Nightheart but then being rejected because of it is something that hit a bit too close imo. And then the line from Myrtlebloom, although probably not intentional, hurt too, and it's obvious it hurt Nightheart.
I think at this point Nightheart deserves better. If his clan won't respect him for his new name and identity I wouldn't even hold it against him for wanting to leave that kind of environment. I can understand if they're mad at him for disobeying orders, or failing at other things (which is ironically what he assumed at first) but it's obvious it's simply because of his name change and rejection of Firestar's legacy.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Sept 22, 2022 22:11:39 GMT -5
I don't know if Nightheart is "whiny". I think his angst is based in a legitimate issue, and being upset about legacy pressure is understandable. However, the way he goes about solving the problem is frustrating, because he's terrible at honestly communicating his feelings and reasons, instead resorting to emotional outbursts that just cats' perception of him worse. He never clearly explains why having a legacy name bothers him so much, beyond complaining that "it doesn't fit because I'm not ginger" (which...plenty of characters have names unrelated to their physical appearance, so that's not unique to him). Looking at his conflict with his mother, and the follow-up with Myrtlebloom: “I only asked for a name that suits me better than Flameheart!” he objected. “What’s wrong with that?” Sparkpelt’s ears flattened. “It’s disrespectful, that’s what’s wrong.” “To whom?” He stared at her. “To you?” “To Firestar,” Sparkpelt snapped. “How can I be disrespectful to a cat I never met?” Nightheart tried to hold his anger in check, but it was impossible. She was being so unfair. “You never met him either!” “I don’t need to have met him to know what a great warrior he was,” Sparkpelt snapped back. “So what if he was a great warrior?” Nightheart’s tail quivered. “Does that mean every warrior has to have a name like his?” “His kin should,” Sparkpelt growled. “Why?” Nightheart mewed hotly. “Are you scared his kin will forget who he is? Or are you scared the rest of the Clan might forget we’re related to him?” Sparkpelt scrambled to her paws, her pelt spiking along her spine. “How dare you?” she hissed. “I gave you that name because kin is important to me, and it breaks my heart that it’s not important to you!” “If kin’s so important to you, why are you giving me such a hard time?” he retorted. “Because I don’t understand why you’re not honored to be related to Firestar!” Her tail was lashing with fury. “You chose to turn your back on his memory no matter how much you hurt your family. Firestar would never have done such a thing.” You don’t know that. Nightheart swallowed back the words. She wanted to be angry. Nothing he said would change that. “It was a shock,” Myrtlebloom told him. “You changed your name in front of everyone. Without even warning Sparkpelt.” “It’s not like I rejected my father’s name,” Nightheart grumbled. “I could understand Sparkpelt being angry if I’d done that.” “But you did reject Firestar’s name,” Myrtlebloom mewed gently. “In a way.” “Why shouldn’t I? I’m nothing like him,” Nightheart mewed. “My fur’s not even ginger, it’s black. Flamekit was a ridiculous name to give me. Anyway, I kept part of his name, remember? I’m Nightheart.” Myrtlebloom didn’t look terribly impressed, and Nightheart’s frustration hardened. “Can’t any cat in the Clan just accept me for who I am?” [...] “It’s not that I’m ungrateful for having such great kin,” he conceded. “I’m proud of them. Firestar was a great leader—” “See?” Myrtlebloom’s eyes brightened. “You can see how important your kin are.” She nudged him with a flick of her tail. “It’s not too late. Everyone will realize that it was just a mistake and that you’ve changed your mind after thinking about it. You can go and ask for your real name back.” Nightheart glared at her. “Nightheart is my real name.” Anger was throbbing afresh beneath his pelt. I’m never asking for my old name back! “No cat gets to decide what kind of warrior I am. Only I get to decide that.” And the scene from River when he requests the public name change: "I don't know yet," Flamepaw confessed. "I just know I want something that reflects the cat I am, not some cat from the past that you all wish me to be." Hi anger overflowed, and he spat the words out. "I'm not Firestar! I don't even look like him, in case you haven't noticed. I will think of a perfect name for myself and let you know." I bolded the lines where Nightheart is actively speaking aloud some sort of explanation for why he changed his name.
Do you see the issue here? We as the reader understand why it bothers Nightheart so much, because we can see his internal monologue. But other characters can't. They only know what he tells them. And what is the justification he gives for changing his name? That he's not ginger and never met Firestar so therefore his name is awful and prevents him from being "his own cat".
Now obviously, that's not all there is to it. But he never once clearly tells other characters, "I feel like being named after Firestar puts way more pressure on me to be exactly like him, and my name reminds the cats around me of him instead of seeing me for me. Even though Firestar was a great warrior, I'd like to change my name to regain a sense of individual identity." Instead he just grumbles to himself and lashes out emotionally, and gives shallow reasons the amount to "I don't like the name and don't care about Firestar". No wonder other cats are reacting poorly.
Like put yourself in Sparkpelt's shoes: you name your kid after your grandfather, because he was a good person, and familial connection is important to you; then your kid turns 15 and angrily denounces their birth name in front of everyone, the only reason given that he doesn't physically resemble the grandfather, "and also he's dead so why does anyone care if i share his name", and when asked what he wants to be called, basically says "idk but anything besides THAT". i'd be offended too.
I also understand that part of all this is because he's still young and immature, and that does explain his poor emotional communication skills. However, as someone who is...not very emotional, it still annoys me to read. Same reason I never cared for Dove/Ivy.
I somewhat agree with you, I see what you're talking about, but again at the same time, I still think Nightheart is justifiable in how he felt. As I've said in my previous replies, the way he behaves in the first book was him going along with everything, every cat was saying for him while he was an apprentice. His fear of being perceived, and the pressure his mother was putting on him, were things that he was weary of, but as some pointed out, not outwardly said much. Confirmation wasn't solidified (at least not so blatantly) until NOW. Up to this point, it was just him suspecting it, and it being implied, with some statements from Squirrel, Thorn, Finch, and Spark, etc. As an apprentice, he followed orders, did what he was told, was constantly judged, even at gatherings, but he never complained about it much, even outwardly. Yes he was upset sometimes, yes he did feel disheartened, but that because his confidence was constantly being jabbed at, and he was trying to brush it off. He focused much harder on trying to be HIMSELF, and proving that he can do it on his own, and not just because of the bloodline running through his veins. What his higher kin kept chalking all of his accomplishments to eventually. It was never exactly a win win situation for him. It was either, he wasn't living up to his name and blood legacy, or anything he succeeded in was because of his name and blood legacy. This is why the moment of his name change was such an impactful moment. It quite literally crumbled him. Because at that point he didn't care anymore, he was just finally happy to get his warrior name, and being known for something that HE was known for. So him still being named after Firestar came off like a slap to the face. Hence why he got upset again: Like in this example. Flameheart is quite blatantly a nod to Fireheart, no matter how you look at it. And it's now confirmed in the first chapter of the second book, that was very much the intent behind it. So his feelings of resentfulness is understandable. And then when he says he didn't want the name, and Bramblestar changes it to something that reflected him more, "Nightheart", since his coat is black, he was more okay with that. This should have been the compromise, but it wasn't something that Sparkpelt, or Finchlight, and it seems the rest of the clan, was satisfied with. They don't even see it as his real name, Sparkpelt and Finchlight have gotten to the point where they're isolating him on purpose and now he's left on his own. They're offended he didn't want to be named after Firestar regardless of whenever or however he wanted his name change. There is no pleasing them, like Nightheart pointed out, there's no way to argue with them, they've made up their minds. It doesn't matter how different he approached this situation, it would have most likely still ended with the same results, his clanmates rejecting him because he rejected Firestar. And personally... I prefer characters that make choices based on mind over emotions, but it doesn't mean I still don't understand said characters when they do make emotional choices. Nightheart is still young, it's only been two books, technically one book and 4 more chapters, and the amount of harsh criticism he's getting, to me at least, seems much.
And the other thing is that, I can see now and understand why people say that Nightheart's character reads as trans-coded, because as a trans person myself, I can understand exactly what he's going through. Having to live up to the expectations of your family, being judged by those around you that perceive you. Always trying to do good by your family, I suppose clan in this case, but then feeling upset when your individuality is being stomped out. And then the struggle to want to keep it when it at least comes to your name, something that is supposed to reflect you and make you happy. Nightheart wanting to be referred to as Nightheart but then being rejected because of it is something that hit a bit too close imo. And then the line from Myrtlebloom, although probably not intentional, hurt too, and it's obvious it hurt Nightheart.
I think at this point Nightheart deserves better. If his clan won't respect him for his new name and identity I wouldn't even hold it against him for wanting to leave that kind of environment. I can understand if they're mad at him for disobeying orders, or failing at other things (which is ironically what he assumed at first) but it's obvious it's simply because of his name change and rejection of Firestar's legacy. Perfectly said. Thank you
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Post by streamflower on Sept 22, 2022 22:28:22 GMT -5
I don't know if Nightheart is "whiny". I think his angst is based in a legitimate issue, and being upset about legacy pressure is understandable. However, the way he goes about solving the problem is frustrating, because he's terrible at honestly communicating his feelings and reasons, instead resorting to emotional outbursts that just cats' perception of him worse. He never clearly explains why having a legacy name bothers him so much, beyond complaining that "it doesn't fit because I'm not ginger" (which...plenty of characters have names unrelated to their physical appearance, so that's not unique to him). Looking at his conflict with his mother, and the follow-up with Myrtlebloom: “I only asked for a name that suits me better than Flameheart!” he objected. “What’s wrong with that?” Sparkpelt’s ears flattened. “It’s disrespectful, that’s what’s wrong.” “To whom?” He stared at her. “To you?” “To Firestar,” Sparkpelt snapped. “How can I be disrespectful to a cat I never met?” Nightheart tried to hold his anger in check, but it was impossible. She was being so unfair. “You never met him either!” “I don’t need to have met him to know what a great warrior he was,” Sparkpelt snapped back. “So what if he was a great warrior?” Nightheart’s tail quivered. “Does that mean every warrior has to have a name like his?” “His kin should,” Sparkpelt growled. “Why?” Nightheart mewed hotly. “Are you scared his kin will forget who he is? Or are you scared the rest of the Clan might forget we’re related to him?” Sparkpelt scrambled to her paws, her pelt spiking along her spine. “How dare you?” she hissed. “I gave you that name because kin is important to me, and it breaks my heart that it’s not important to you!” “If kin’s so important to you, why are you giving me such a hard time?” he retorted. “Because I don’t understand why you’re not honored to be related to Firestar!” Her tail was lashing with fury. “You chose to turn your back on his memory no matter how much you hurt your family. Firestar would never have done such a thing.” You don’t know that. Nightheart swallowed back the words. She wanted to be angry. Nothing he said would change that. “It was a shock,” Myrtlebloom told him. “You changed your name in front of everyone. Without even warning Sparkpelt.” “It’s not like I rejected my father’s name,” Nightheart grumbled. “I could understand Sparkpelt being angry if I’d done that.” “But you did reject Firestar’s name,” Myrtlebloom mewed gently. “In a way.” “Why shouldn’t I? I’m nothing like him,” Nightheart mewed. “My fur’s not even ginger, it’s black. Flamekit was a ridiculous name to give me. Anyway, I kept part of his name, remember? I’m Nightheart.” Myrtlebloom didn’t look terribly impressed, and Nightheart’s frustration hardened. “Can’t any cat in the Clan just accept me for who I am?” [...] “It’s not that I’m ungrateful for having such great kin,” he conceded. “I’m proud of them. Firestar was a great leader—” “See?” Myrtlebloom’s eyes brightened. “You can see how important your kin are.” She nudged him with a flick of her tail. “It’s not too late. Everyone will realize that it was just a mistake and that you’ve changed your mind after thinking about it. You can go and ask for your real name back.” Nightheart glared at her. “Nightheart is my real name.” Anger was throbbing afresh beneath his pelt. I’m never asking for my old name back! “No cat gets to decide what kind of warrior I am. Only I get to decide that.” And the scene from River when he requests the public name change: "I don't know yet," Flamepaw confessed. "I just know I want something that reflects the cat I am, not some cat from the past that you all wish me to be." Hi anger overflowed, and he spat the words out. "I'm not Firestar! I don't even look like him, in case you haven't noticed. I will think of a perfect name for myself and let you know." I bolded the lines where Nightheart is actively speaking aloud some sort of explanation for why he changed his name.
Do you see the issue here? We as the reader understand why it bothers Nightheart so much, because we can see his internal monologue. But other characters can't. They only know what he tells them. And what is the justification he gives for changing his name? That he's not ginger and never met Firestar so therefore his name is awful and prevents him from being "his own cat".
Now obviously, that's not all there is to it. But he never once clearly tells other characters, "I feel like being named after Firestar puts way more pressure on me to be exactly like him, and my name reminds the cats around me of him instead of seeing me for me. Even though Firestar was a great warrior, I'd like to change my name to regain a sense of individual identity." Instead he just grumbles to himself and lashes out emotionally, and gives shallow reasons the amount to "I don't like the name and don't care about Firestar". No wonder other cats are reacting poorly.
Like put yourself in Sparkpelt's shoes: you name your kid after your grandfather, because he was a good person, and familial connection is important to you; then your kid turns 15 and angrily denounces their birth name in front of everyone, the only reason given that he doesn't physically resemble the grandfather, "and also he's dead so why does anyone care if i share his name", and when asked what he wants to be called, basically says "idk but anything besides THAT". i'd be offended too.
I also understand that part of all this is because he's still young and immature, and that does explain his poor emotional communication skills. However, as someone who is...not very emotional, it still annoys me to read. Same reason I never cared for Dove/Ivy.
I somewhat agree with you, I see what you're talking about, but again at the same time, I still think Nightheart is justifiable in how he felt. As I've said in my previous replies, the way he behaves in the first book was him going along with everything, every cat was saying for him while he was an apprentice. His fear of being perceived, and the pressure his mother was putting on him, were things that he was weary of, but as some pointed out, not outwardly said much. Confirmation wasn't solidified (at least not so blatantly) until NOW. Up to this point, it was just him suspecting it, and it being implied, with some statements from Squirrel, Thorn, Finch, and Spark, etc. As an apprentice, he followed orders, did what he was told, was constantly judged, even at gatherings, but he never complained about it much, even outwardly. Yes he was upset sometimes, yes he did feel disheartened, but that because his confidence was constantly being jabbed at, and he was trying to brush it off. He focused much harder on trying to be HIMSELF, and proving that he can do it on his own, and not just because of the bloodline running through his veins. What his higher kin kept chalking all of his accomplishments to eventually. It was never exactly a win win situation for him. It was either, he wasn't living up to his name and blood legacy, or anything he succeeded in was because of his name and blood legacy. This is why the moment of his name change was such an impactful moment. It quite literally crumbled him. Because at that point he didn't care anymore, he was just finally happy to get his warrior name, and being known for something that HE was known for. So him still being named after Firestar came off like a slap to the face. Hence why he got upset again: Like in this example. Flameheart is quite blatantly a nod to Fireheart, no matter how you look at it. And it's now confirmed in the first chapter of the second book, that was very much the intent behind it. So his feelings of resentfulness is understandable. And then when he says he didn't want the name, and Bramblestar changes it to something that reflected him more, "Nightheart", since his coat is black, he was more okay with that. This should have been the compromise, but it wasn't something that Sparkpelt, or Finchlight, and it seems the rest of the clan, was satisfied with. They don't even see it as his real name, Sparkpelt and Finchlight have gotten to the point where they're isolating him on purpose and now he's left on his own. They're offended he didn't want to be named after Firestar regardless of whenever or however he wanted his name change. There is no pleasing them, like Nightheart pointed out, there's no way to argue with them, they've made up their minds. It doesn't matter how different he approached this situation, it would have most likely still ended with the same results, his clanmates rejecting him because he rejected Firestar. And personally... I prefer characters that make choices based on mind over emotions, but it doesn't mean I still don't understand said characters when they do make emotional choices. Nightheart is still young, it's only been two books, technically one book and 4 more chapters, and the amount of harsh criticism he's getting, to me at least, seems much.
And the other thing is that, I can see now and understand why people say that Nightheart's character reads as trans-coded, because as a trans person myself, I can understand exactly what he's going through. Having to live up to the expectations of your family, being judged by those around you that perceive you. Always trying to do good by your family, I suppose clan in this case, but then feeling upset when your individuality is being stomped out. And then the struggle to want to keep it when it at least comes to your name, something that is supposed to reflect you and make you happy. Nightheart wanting to be referred to as Nightheart but then being rejected because of it is something that hit a bit too close imo. And then the line from Myrtlebloom, although probably not intentional, hurt too, and it's obvious it hurt Nightheart.
I think at this point Nightheart deserves better. If his clan won't respect him for his new name and identity I wouldn't even hold it against him for wanting to leave that kind of environment. I can understand if they're mad at him for disobeying orders, or failing at other things (which is ironically what he assumed at first) but it's obvious it's simply because of his name change and rejection of Firestar's legacy. I completely agree with you; very well said. One of the parts that stuck out to me the most as trans-coded was when Myrtlebloom was asking when Nightheart was going to use his 'real name.' I'm kind of wondering if cats will call Nightheart 'Flameheart' instead, or if it will come up in a gathering? Because I feel like that blatant disrespect and pushing an identity/agenda on him will likely push his moving to Shadowclan. Edit: A prediction: To kind of expand on the gathering part, my guess is that Nightheart will go to the next gathering and Bramblestar will announce his name.
Few Thunderclan warriors will cheer his name, or they'll chant 'Flameheart' instead which will lead to questions. This will greatly upset Nightheart and he (or Bramblestar) will try to explain the situation in as vague a way as possible. Thunderclan cats will hiss angrily, call him ungrateful for not being Firekin, etc.
Sunbeam (and other cats) might hear how Thunderclan is reacting and will support Nightheart saying that it's fine that he wants to be his own cat, probably saying something about how Firestar being your kin shouldn't be your whole personality. *That* will trigger Nightheart into liking Sunbeam and/or considering moving to Shadowclan, because unlike Thunderclan they'll support his identity.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 22, 2022 23:16:06 GMT -5
I somewhat agree with you, I see what you're talking about, but again at the same time, I still think Nightheart is justifiable in how he felt. As I've said in my previous replies, the way he behaves in the first book was him going along with everything, every cat was saying for him while he was an apprentice. His fear of being perceived, and the pressure his mother was putting on him, were things that he was weary of, but as some pointed out, not outwardly said much. Confirmation wasn't solidified (at least not so blatantly) until NOW. Up to this point, it was just him suspecting it, and it being implied, with some statements from Squirrel, Thorn, Finch, and Spark, etc. As an apprentice, he followed orders, did what he was told, was constantly judged, even at gatherings, but he never complained about it much, even outwardly. Yes he was upset sometimes, yes he did feel disheartened, but that because his confidence was constantly being jabbed at, and he was trying to brush it off. He focused much harder on trying to be HIMSELF, and proving that he can do it on his own, and not just because of the bloodline running through his veins. What his higher kin kept chalking all of his accomplishments to eventually. It was never exactly a win win situation for him. It was either, he wasn't living up to his name and blood legacy, or anything he succeeded in was because of his name and blood legacy. This is why the moment of his name change was such an impactful moment. It quite literally crumbled him. Because at that point he didn't care anymore, he was just finally happy to get his warrior name, and being known for something that HE was known for. So him still being named after Firestar came off like a slap to the face. Hence why he got upset again: Like in this example. Flameheart is quite blatantly a nod to Fireheart, no matter how you look at it. And it's now confirmed in the first chapter of the second book, that was very much the intent behind it. So his feelings of resentfulness is understandable. And then when he says he didn't want the name, and Bramblestar changes it to something that reflected him more, "Nightheart", since his coat is black, he was more okay with that. This should have been the compromise, but it wasn't something that Sparkpelt, or Finchlight, and it seems the rest of the clan, was satisfied with. They don't even see it as his real name, Sparkpelt and Finchlight have gotten to the point where they're isolating him on purpose and now he's left on his own. They're offended he didn't want to be named after Firestar regardless of whenever or however he wanted his name change. There is no pleasing them, like Nightheart pointed out, there's no way to argue with them, they've made up their minds. It doesn't matter how different he approached this situation, it would have most likely still ended with the same results, his clanmates rejecting him because he rejected Firestar. And personally... I prefer characters that make choices based on mind over emotions, but it doesn't mean I still don't understand said characters when they do make emotional choices. Nightheart is still young, it's only been two books, technically one book and 4 more chapters, and the amount of harsh criticism he's getting, to me at least, seems much.
And the other thing is that, I can see now and understand why people say that Nightheart's character reads as trans-coded, because as a trans person myself, I can understand exactly what he's going through. Having to live up to the expectations of your family, being judged by those around you that perceive you. Always trying to do good by your family, I suppose clan in this case, but then feeling upset when your individuality is being stomped out. And then the struggle to want to keep it when it at least comes to your name, something that is supposed to reflect you and make you happy. Nightheart wanting to be referred to as Nightheart but then being rejected because of it is something that hit a bit too close imo. And then the line from Myrtlebloom, although probably not intentional, hurt too, and it's obvious it hurt Nightheart.
I think at this point Nightheart deserves better. If his clan won't respect him for his new name and identity I wouldn't even hold it against him for wanting to leave that kind of environment. I can understand if they're mad at him for disobeying orders, or failing at other things (which is ironically what he assumed at first) but it's obvious it's simply because of his name change and rejection of Firestar's legacy. I completely agree with you; very well said. One of the parts that stuck out to me the most as trans-coded was when Myrtlebloom was asking when Nightheart was going to use his 'real name.' I'm kind of wondering if cats will call Nightheart 'Flameheart' instead, or if it will come up in a gathering? Because I feel like that blatant disrespect and pushing an identity/agenda on him will likely push his moving to Shadowclan. Edit: A prediction: To kind of expand on the gathering part, my guess is that Nightheart will go to the next gathering and Bramblestar will announce his name.
Few Thunderclan warriors will cheer his name, or they'll chant 'Flameheart' instead which will lead to questions. This will greatly upset Nightheart and he (or Bramblestar) will try to explain the situation in as vague a way as possible. Thunderclan cats will hiss angrily, call him ungrateful for not being Firekin, etc.
Sunbeam (and other cats) might hear how Thunderclan is reacting and will support Nightheart saying that it's fine that he wants to be his own cat, probably saying something about how Firestar being your kin shouldn't be your whole personality. *That* will trigger Nightheart into liking Sunbeam and/or considering moving to Shadowclan, because unlike Thunderclan they'll support his identity. I hope it doesn't get to that point. If they refer to Nightheart as his older name, they'd basically be deadnaming him, which I'm sure many would find even more uncomfortable.
It's obvious that this arc is supposed to be more "meta" I suppose, compared to previous arcs so far. Already in the first book they were tackling with other realistic issues that are very eerie, and realistic issues you can see prevalent in society.
ShadowClan for example is laying it on thick that the theme is surrounding xenophobia, with older gen vs newer gen argument rhetoric. Traditional clan values of the code vs the newer changes of the code. It doesn't help that Sunbeam's own mother is trying to encourage her to join secret meetings that revolve around cats who are against the changes. While in this excerpt Gullswoop was being uncomfortably pushy about Sunbeam hopefully getting with a "good ShadowClan tom" one day. Probably because Blazefire wasn't clan born, and her brother got with Fringewhisker.
On the other hand with Frostpaw and RiverClan's plot so far seems to be surrounding religious belief, in this case Frostpaw and her fragile connection to StarClan in a leaderless clan. But it's also tackling Frostpaw's severe trauma, and the depression that followed. She's obviously developed PTSD, she can recount the very moments of what happened, and how much it affects her. She's depressed to the point she doesn't want to eat for days, get up from her nest, and gets upset when she's disturbed. But now her clanmates are losing patience with her, and forcing her to do something she really isn't personally ready to face. I don't think the trip to moonpool will be very kind to her either, because she might suffer from a panic attack, or worse.
All three of the themes surrounding the main characters are very realistic, and very much things that newer generation readers are dealing with more and more every day. So I can see why some of this stuff really hits harder, and we're not even half way through this arc yet. But how their characters are handled is what I'm more on the fence about. As for your prediction, I rather like it, I think it's a good prediction. If it does happen in that way, I think I wouldn't even be against the idea of Night x Sun tbh. As long as it's them being in same clan and not breaking rules or anything, I don't really mind interclan relationships. Also there's a lot of plot potential there. ThunderClan will get angry and accuse ShadowClan of taking all the good warriors (referencing when Fringewhisker also switched clans) and ShadowClan will be split about it. Either welcoming Nightheart for who he is, and finding it amusing that cats prefer their clan. Or angry their blood is being mixed even more, which will kick off the side plot of Berryheart being an antagonist.
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Post by Jaysnow on Sept 22, 2022 23:21:48 GMT -5
Not really on topic I guess but is anyone else kind of annoyed with the title since "Shattered Sky" already exists?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 22, 2022 23:59:56 GMT -5
Not really on topic I guess but is anyone else kind of annoyed with the title since "Shattered Sky" already exists? Slightly, yes. At least it's not as bad as Darkest Night and Darkness Within. Or worse, the Raging Storm vs Rising Storm.
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