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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2022 9:21:42 GMT -5
"Submissive" Tawnypelt: Tells Tigerstar to eff off, beats up Scorchfur for insulting Rowanstar while Rowanstar sits passively, calls out Tigerheart on being a tool in her novella and effs off to do what she wants, brutalizes Berrynose, named her kid Tigerkit just out of sheer spite. "Dominant" Bramblestar: Wants daddy's attention really badly, sits there uselessly with his tail between his legs when Rowanstar demands Violetkit, spends the entirety of TBC as a damsel in distress, can't control his clan in Squirrelflight's Hope, only beat Hawkfrost with cheap tactics. Calling Tawnypelt submissive is definitely hilarious. Given everything she's been through, she's constantly smacking people down. Ironically, she's also a lot tougher than her mate - Rowanstar. Like, I love Rowanstar, but Tawnypelt is the real one you don't want to mess with
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 16, 2022 10:46:46 GMT -5
(Editing sucks on mobile. So, apologies on the added post.) But provided I counted correctly. It’s 19 toms and 21 she-cats that have had povs across the various books in which they have either had a mate or love interest.) And even then, I'd kind of waffle on including Hollyleaf, because it's barely hinted at in the actual books. Ivypool also never had a love interest for the entirety of her POV, it wasn't until much later that she got one, so her plot never revolved around any sort of romance.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2022 14:57:07 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see some f and t-tests examining the distribution of screentime and lines and such. The statistical aspect here is genuinely fascinating and that's why I have to praise this video even if I think it could have done more, because at least there's an ATTEMPT at something more than just reading out lines from the books.
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Post by tema on May 16, 2022 16:28:36 GMT -5
Regardless of my thoughts on the video, I'm still glad it was posted and this thread created, as, at the very least, it stirred up some Tawnypelt appreciation.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2022 17:30:44 GMT -5
I also want to say this since I see it come up in media all the time: I'm tired of kind women also being seen as somehow submissive or weak. I feel that there's this idea that only "badass" (often bitchy) women are the strong ones.
Like, I don't think Leafpool or Daisy are weak or submissive in the least. Yeah, Leafpool is kind and patient, but she also sticks to her principles and isn't afraid to stand up for what she believes in or protect her family. She's very emotionally strong and she is very clear on not regretting her relationship with Crowfeather or the fact she had her kits.
Likewise, Daisy is a permaqueen, but...she's also probably one of the side characters with the most development in the series. She went from unsure to a cat respected by all her clan who can body DF cats and scold Bramblestar without hesitation.
Idk. I feel like a she-cat being kind and gentle somehow making her "submissive" is a misogynistic idea in itself. You can be quiet and gentle while also being strong.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2022 18:10:02 GMT -5
I also want to say this since I see it come up in media all the time: I'm tired of kind women also being seen as somehow submissive or weak. I feel that there's this idea that only "badass" (often bitchy) women are the strong ones. Like, I don't think Leafpool or Daisy are weak or submissive in the least. Yeah, Leafpool is kind and patient, but she also sticks to her principles and isn't afraid to stand up for what she believes in or protect her family. She's very emotionally strong and she is very clear on not regretting her relationship with Crowfeather or the fact she had her kits. Likewise, Daisy is a permaqueen, but...she's also probably one of the side characters with the most development in the series. She went from unsure to a cat respected by all her clan who can body DF cats and scold Bramblestar without hesitation. Idk. I feel like a she-cat being kind and gentle somehow making her "submissive" is a misogynistic idea in itself. You can be quiet and gentle while also being strong. I think there is an element of truth to the idea that there is a traditional idea that while male characters can have a range of characterizations, female characters are often pigeonholed into the role of a peacemaker, healer, or a fighter who fights from range/with trickery rather than with strength. That's what the idea refers to. However, I think this idea is rather muted in Warriors, because female warriors are very much a thing. This isn't a case like, for the sake of an example, a stereotypical fantasy work where knights and other melee fighters are represented entirely by males while the token "girl" character is some waif shooting arrows from far away or casting healing spells while being utterly incapable of anything in a straight fight.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2022 18:20:24 GMT -5
I also want to say this since I see it come up in media all the time: I'm tired of kind women also being seen as somehow submissive or weak. I feel that there's this idea that only "badass" (often bitchy) women are the strong ones. Like, I don't think Leafpool or Daisy are weak or submissive in the least. Yeah, Leafpool is kind and patient, but she also sticks to her principles and isn't afraid to stand up for what she believes in or protect her family. She's very emotionally strong and she is very clear on not regretting her relationship with Crowfeather or the fact she had her kits. Likewise, Daisy is a permaqueen, but...she's also probably one of the side characters with the most development in the series. She went from unsure to a cat respected by all her clan who can body DF cats and scold Bramblestar without hesitation. Idk. I feel like a she-cat being kind and gentle somehow making her "submissive" is a misogynistic idea in itself. You can be quiet and gentle while also being strong. I think there is an element of truth to the idea that there is a traditional idea that while male characters can have a range of characterizations, female characters are often pigeonholed into the role of a peacemaker, healer, or a fighter who fights from range/with trickery rather than with strength. That's what the idea refers to. However, I think this idea is rather muted in Warriors, because female warriors are very much a thing. This isn't a case like, for the sake of an example, a stereotypical fantasy work where knights and other melee fighters are represented entirely by males while the token "girl" character is some waif shooting arrows from far away or casting healing spells while being utterly incapable of anything in a straight fight. I definitely have issues with consistent damsel in distress character. But I'm talking about characters who are genuinely kind and well meaning getting labeled as that even if they aren't? Like, there are very few she-cats in Warriors who fit into that description. And I'd argue the majority of she-cats are willing to tell others off when they're being unreasonable And a lot of our female medicine cats have been pretty awesome. Some even more headstrong than their male counterparts
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 16, 2022 18:38:51 GMT -5
Thinking about it, the closest the series comes to directly addressing any gender disparity are whenever the possibility of kits is brought up. Leafstar (something she ends going against anyway):
In the very next chapter, we get this:
Squirrelflight's conversation with Hollypaw: And then there's Whitewing's conversation with Dovewing: That last one I can definitely see why it would make people consider the series misogynistic, especially given Whitewing's wording. I guess you can also count Bluestar, but that had more to do with the fact that she was currently nursing kits at the time of Tawnyspots getting sick, not that she was barred from becoming leader at all. It was just a matter of poor timing, and even then, we still have Squirrelflight, who was apparently able to have kits without a temporary deputy being needed.
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Post by halogen on May 16, 2022 18:58:52 GMT -5
I feel like people are missing the point by saying that a female character isn't poorly written/misogynistic if their mate and kits are an important part of their arc. Sunny isn't saying they are, she makes it clear that she's talking about an aggregate pattern, that any given one of the characters she lists isn't misogynistic at all and might be very well-written and a good representation for female characters, but that in general female characters seem more likely to get certain arcs compared to male characters and the pattern is a problem.
I don't think Ivypool having a mate and children fits in this pattern at all though, as she has a whole arc that has nothing to do with them and then has kids in the background, which makes her closer to the male characters who just happen to have kids.
Concerning the Whitewing conversation with Dovewing, this seems to be part of a pattern that I wish she would have addressed - the way the books put the sentiment that every she-cat should have kids in the mouth of a cat described as the perfect angelic ideal warrior type, while the sentiment of not wanting to have kits is given to cats who pursue ambition over kits in a way that leads to their complete mental breakdown and downfall (Hollyleaf, Bluestar) or completely failing as leader and letting a tyrant take power (Leopardstar), and in one case to an outright abusive mother (Lizardstripe). The only exception is Twigbranch and even then she's saying she wants to wait until later to have kits, not necessarily that she doesn't want one at all. Now a lot of those characters are very interesting for their self-destruction and I don't have a problem with them, again it's the pattern that's troubling. It would just be nice if more she-cats expressed the sentiment of not wanting kits and lived a happy and successful life without it being portrayed as a tragic mistake or a foreshadowing to being abusive.
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Omnisexual
Fernflower
I forgot how amazing Firestar is
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Post by Fernflower on May 16, 2022 21:16:38 GMT -5
That was a nice watch, thanks for sharing. (If anyone thinks the video is too long, I would recommend doing a mindless activity while you watch it, like drawing. This video is worth watching.) I liked how Sunny started out by listing all of the stats. Personally I don't even think the disparity is that bad--it's discouraging but not terrible--but I appreciate having all of the facts right at the beginning for reference. What really bugs me about the gender issue is the fact that basically all of the she-cats have been involved in romantic relationships at some point of their lives. I'm still not happy Ivypool got a mate when she never showed any desire for a mate in OOTS (at least from what I remember). And I didn't know about Leopardstar getting a love interest in her super edition--what a terrible change. That was one of the things about Leopardstar I really liked. I don't understand why the authors felt the need to change that. My theory on why the she-cats are always shoved into relationships is because there's an increasing risk of inbreeding in the clans. So the authors feel like they have to pair all of the she-cats to get enough variety in the bloodlines. Which is why I think there needs to be a change to the way clans work so this issue isn't as prevalent. Do the male cats have less relationships though? I haven't read DOTC, but quite literally every single male protagonist in the main series has ALSO had a romantic relationship plotline with the exception of Shadowsight (No I'm not counting Flametail's short-lived butt). And with the way ASC is progressing, it seems likely Frostpaw will also end up similarly, so even that small disparity is likely to be fixed. This is also true for every single SE protagonist. Warriors just really, really likes pairing off characters Yeah that's a good point. Maybe it's less about gender and more about having cats without relationships or kits in general. Relationship plotlines make for good drama, I can't deny that.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on May 17, 2022 0:53:36 GMT -5
I have appreciation for the creators dedication and hardwork and effort put forth into compiling such an exhaustive list of the statistical disparities. It’s admittedly more thoughtfully put together than your typical analysis videos. However, there’s definitely some holes in the forethought and where the analysis time is placed. And she definitely spends too much time pensively mauling over statistics which are very subjective and arbitrary, and doesn’t devote any enough time delving into the context of the subject material used in her comparisons.
And it certainly doesn’t help she make’s some rather non-factual claims. Tawnypelt and Daisy certainly don’t fit the description of being labeled as submissive. And the connotation that having a peaceable, gentle and kind-spirited demeanor makes someone submissive or weak is rather derogatory. one doesn’t have to be a self-conceited jerk in order to be considered strong or independent.
And using Tigerstar for an example of she-cats and Tom’s being treated differently when taking multiple mates probably isn’t the best option if trying to gain traction on the argument. Given the context that Tigerstar is a antagonist, that’s dishonorable and lacks nobility and is expected to do things that are unprincipled. Critiquing a villain for committing obscenities would be like harshly criticizing a hero for being too honorable.
Now this might be derailing off the topic, but having an exorbitant number of she-cats falling into the same personality archetype could be partly due to the books being written by the same 2 people for nearly 2 decades, and it’s possible they’ve just gotten into a comfortable routine of writing characters a particular way, and given the strict deadlines they have to write these books(which they’ve spoken out is 2 months typically)doesn’t exactly give much wiggle room for them to really explore or develop character stories that they’d be inexperienced with(easier to stick to a routine you’ve done a hundred times over then trying something new). And while following the same writing patterns does become repetitious and insipid after awhile. Repetition of a pattern doesn’t contribute to sexism.
And there might be some genuine elements that could be construed as misogyny. Though the creator didn’t do the best job illustrating any evidence, and feels a lot like cherry picking to stir up the community for views, not that I’m implying that’s her intention with the video. Though it is a common occurrence that people will nitpick out some nonsensical bit and label it as prejudice/derogatory etc to illicit discourse and gain attention. For the sake of an example, how apparently Disney’s Pixar movie “Soul” was called out for being racist/oppressive to POC because the Main character was Soul between life and death for majority of the movie and his body being possessed by another for a large section as well, and his soul being transferred to a cat and ajdiwhdjdsk honestly I can’t even comprehend exactly what one could consider racist about the movie, and I’m not going to bother pondering on it.
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Post by tema on May 17, 2022 2:07:14 GMT -5
I feel like people are missing the point by saying that a female character isn't poorly written/misogynistic if their mate and kits are an important part of their arc. Sunny isn't saying they are, she makes it clear that she's talking about an aggregate pattern, that any given one of the characters she lists isn't misogynistic at all and might be very well-written and a good representation for female characters, but that in general female characters seem more likely to get certain arcs compared to male characters and the pattern is a problem. God forbid we have females often get pregnant. Oh, the misogyny...
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Post by tema on May 17, 2022 2:18:30 GMT -5
Now this might be derailing off the topic, but having an exorbitant number of she-cats falling into the same personality archetype could be partly due to the books being written by the same 2 people for nearly 2 decades, and it’s possible they’ve just gotten into a comfortable routine of writing characters a particular way, and given the strict deadlines they have to write these books(which they’ve spoken out is 2 months typically)doesn’t exactly give much wiggle room for them to really explore or develop character stories that they’d be inexperienced with(easier to stick to a routine you’ve done a hundred times over then trying something new). And while following the same writing patterns does become repetitious and insipid after awhile. Repetition of a pattern doesn’t contribute to sexism. I think this is a perfectly valid suspicion. This might be me projecting a bit of my insecurities, but often times when I'm bored, I'll sit down and write part of a script for some project that will never be anything, because I find it fun. If I like a particular bit enough, I'll revisit it and flesh out the characters while expanding the story. With two of my favorites so far, I realized that I had written the protagonists (a male and female pairing) for both to be remarkably similar characters, the female a stoic "larger picture" leader dealing with outside responsibility and the male a "smaller details" crowdpleaser wrestling with internal insecurities. I stopped and analyzed why and came to the conclusion that it was because I found the personality clash interesting to write about, and it wasn't really a problem if I added in enough to make both pairings distinct. Now, I'm not a professional writer by any means, but on the other hand I have all the time in the world to change how these are handled. With only two months given to write, I can easily imagine that, once the Erins found something that they could reliably work with, they decided to similarly roll with it since it fits the story elements they're comfortable treading.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on May 17, 2022 9:04:39 GMT -5
Another thing I find ridiculous, is she’s implying that Leafstar’s Manga is belittling/prejudice to women because it’s revolves around her struggle of balancing her time as mother and leader. Now just to say, I know quite a few mothers that are overtly fond of her manga over all the others specifically for how and what subject matter is being written about. It gives female representation of a real world struggle and stigma that women face. However, it’s not handled in some contemptuous or derogatory fashion, or slanderous manner towards women. It’s just more or less acknowledged the stigma exists, but is never indulged or given facsimile justifications by the narrative. but than, and pardon my French, Leafstar traipses all over that shit, and tramples the stigma into the dust. And does an absolutely banging kick-ass job of showcasing just because she’s a mother, doesn’t mean she can’t be leader, or that’s she’s any less capable to do so. Perfectly highlights that she can be a mother, and still have a career and ambitions to go with it, and that’s she’s defined by more than her kits and relationships. It’s pretty empowering imo.
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Post by Sand on May 17, 2022 12:15:03 GMT -5
I feel like people are missing the point by saying that a female character isn't poorly written/misogynistic if their mate and kits are an important part of their arc. Sunny isn't saying they are, she makes it clear that she's talking about an aggregate pattern, that any given one of the characters she lists isn't misogynistic at all and might be very well-written and a good representation for female characters, but that in general female characters seem more likely to get certain arcs compared to male characters and the pattern is a problem. God forbid we have females often get pregnant. Oh, the misogyny... Please stop being rude and snarky towards other members. Thanks.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 17, 2022 12:23:38 GMT -5
Another thing I find ridiculous, is she’s implying that Leafstar’s Manga is belittling/prejudice to women because it’s revolves around her struggle of balancing her time as mother and leader. Now just to say, I know quite a few mothers that are overtly fond of her manga over all the others specifically for how and subject matter being written about. It gives female representation of a real world struggle and stigma that women face. However, it’s not handled in some contemptuous or derogatory fashion, or slanderous manner towards women. It’s just more or less acknowledged the stigma exists, but than, and pardon my French, Leafstar traipses all over that shit, and tramples the stigma into the dust. And does an absolutely banging kick-ass job of showcasing just because she’s a mother, doesn’t mean she can’t be leader, or that’s she’s any less capable to do so. Perfectly highlights that she can be a mother, and still have a career and ambitions to go with it. It’s pretty empowering imo. I very much feel this way about her as well. Also, people seem to always forget that Bluestar initially believed that she could do both, too. It was only because Goosefeather kept telling her that having kits/being a mother wasn't part of her destiny that she gave them up.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 17, 2022 13:20:40 GMT -5
Another thing I find ridiculous, is she’s implying that Leafstar’s Manga is belittling/prejudice to women because it’s revolves around her struggle of balancing her time as mother and leader. Now just to say, I know quite a few mothers that are overtly fond of her manga over all the others specifically for how and subject matter being written about. It gives female representation of a real world struggle and stigma that women face. However, it’s not handled in some contemptuous or derogatory fashion, or slanderous manner towards women. It’s just more or less acknowledged the stigma exists, but than, and pardon my French, Leafstar traipses all over that shit, and tramples the stigma into the dust. And does an absolutely banging kick-ass job of showcasing just because she’s a mother, doesn’t mean she can’t be leader, or that’s she’s any less capable to do so. Perfectly highlights that she can be a mother, and still have a career and ambitions to go with it. It’s pretty empowering imo. I very much feel this way about her as well. Also, people seem to always forget that Bluestar initially believed that she could do both, too. It was only because Goosefeather kept telling her that having kits/being a mother wasn't part of her destiny that she gave them up. i forget what sunstar said too, but didnt he also contribute to why bluefur felt like she had to give up her kits? it's all ridiculous. she could have easily put her foot down and said no, make me deputy, i can literally give orders and organize patrols within the walls of camp.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 17, 2022 13:42:50 GMT -5
I very much feel this way about her as well. Also, people seem to always forget that Bluestar initially believed that she could do both, too. It was only because Goosefeather kept telling her that having kits/being a mother wasn't part of her destiny that she gave them up. i forget what sunstar said too, but didnt he also contribute to why bluefur felt like she had to give up her kits? it's all ridiculous. she could have easily put her foot down and said no, make me deputy, i can literally give orders and organize patrols within the walls of camp. It might also be a preference thing, since again, Squirrelflight was apparently able to stay deputy without a substitute being needed. Then again, she'd also been deputy for awhile by the time she got pregnant, whereas Bluefur was still a warrior at the time. As for what he said, are you referring to this part? It's the only conversation they have while Bluefur is pregnant. Which is interesting, because after Bluefur gives up her kits, he says this. It was also a harsh leaf-bare at the time and RiverClan was doing well in terms of prey, so that was also a contributing factor as to why Bluefur did what she did when she did.
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Post by leopardclan on May 17, 2022 13:43:49 GMT -5
The people in here claiming that there's barely any misogyny in books anymore are so funny. i wish i lived in that world!
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Currently sick with the flu...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on May 17, 2022 14:11:38 GMT -5
The people in here claiming that there's barely any misogyny in books anymore are so funny. i wish i lived in that world! Your comment seems like bait to start an argument. Please stop trying to provoke others.
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Post by leopardclan on May 17, 2022 14:18:00 GMT -5
The people in here claiming that there's barely any misogyny in books anymore are so funny. i wish i lived in that world! Your comment seems like bait to start an argument. Please stop trying to provoke others. I don't think disagreeing is bait but eh I'll be more gentle about it next time.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on May 17, 2022 14:23:52 GMT -5
The people in here claiming that there's barely any misogyny in books anymore are so funny. i wish i lived in that world! I don’t see anyone explicitly stating there isn’t misogyny in the books, though?. Just that statistical graphs without discernible substance to backup Sunnyfall’s argument of misogyny in books kind of lacks traction. Especially when non-factual data is being presented(I.e Tawnypelt being submissive). And she does make some contradictory, and albeit inadvertently, statements that could be construed as more misogynistic than the content she’s illustrating as being such.
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Post by tema on May 17, 2022 14:56:08 GMT -5
Your comment seems like bait to start an argument. Please stop trying to provoke others. I don't think disagreeing is bait but eh I'll be more gentle about it next time. The "I wish I lived in that world" comment pushes further than disagreement since it directly accuses the people you don't agree with as being delusional.
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Post by halogen on May 17, 2022 15:19:22 GMT -5
I feel like people are missing the point by saying that a female character isn't poorly written/misogynistic if their mate and kits are an important part of their arc. Sunny isn't saying they are, she makes it clear that she's talking about an aggregate pattern, that any given one of the characters she lists isn't misogynistic at all and might be very well-written and a good representation for female characters, but that in general female characters seem more likely to get certain arcs compared to male characters and the pattern is a problem. God forbid we have females often get pregnant. Oh, the misogyny... Sunny wasn't talking about them being pregnant, obviously both male and female characters can have mates and kits and the female ones get pregnant first. Just talking about a pattern that female characters with mates and kits are more likely to have a larger percentage of the focus of their character arcs revolve around them compared to male characters with mates and kits, none of which would be a problem for the individual characters or implies the individual characters are poorly or misogynistically written, again the issue is the pattern. Please try to actually read what I was saying instead of reducing my argument to a straw man.
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Post by tema on May 17, 2022 15:36:38 GMT -5
God forbid we have females often get pregnant. Oh, the misogyny... Sunny wasn't talking about them being pregnant, obviously both male and female characters can have mates and kits and the female ones get pregnant first. Just talking about a pattern that female characters with mates and kits are more likely to have a larger percentage of the focus of their character arcs revolve around them compared to male characters with mates and kits, none of which would be a problem for the individual characters or implies the individual characters are poorly or misogynistically written, again the issue is the pattern. Please try to actually read what I was saying instead of reducing my argument to a straw man. The idea that a series repeatedly using child-rearing as a plot element would be fair to criticize as, as Sunny puts it, "setting expectations" or "making patterns," in a series where the survival of a group of animals isn't the focus. Warriors is a saga based around several generations of wild cats. To say that we shouldn't see how these cats form relationships is a disservice to the worldbuilding by introducing characters "out of the blue" or arbitrarily pairing cats, which makes for worse storytelling. The scope of the series has expanded so far that we know what happens for most seasons in ThunderClan after Rusty's arrival (as the main focus of Warriors is based around a bloodline that might as well be a dynasty at this point), so how these generations form should be explained There are two alternatives to these aspects. First choice is that we kits appearing out of the blue or from unexplained parentage, which reintroduces a problem of the cats not having established families (leading to things like Graystripe's unfortunate heritage), or we have kits appear from unestablished relationships, which reintroduces problems such as Whitestorm's unusual pairings. The common factor here is that you're asking to undo a fix to two problems from early in the series, for no real benefit other than to appease people who are, if we're being honest, working backwards to justify an ideology. Regarding the strawman accusation, do not mistaken summary for strawman, as you're defending a video which commits this vice far more egregiously than I am. Whether or not I'm polite about pointing this out (the users of this forum REALLY need to learn that whining about tone is not an argument) doesn't actually distract from this double standard. I understand your argument beneath the long-winded prose. That's the problem.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on May 17, 2022 18:32:56 GMT -5
God forbid we have females often get pregnant. Oh, the misogyny... Sunny wasn't talking about them being pregnant, obviously both male and female characters can have mates and kits and the female ones get pregnant first. Just talking about a pattern that female characters with mates and kits are more likely to have a larger percentage of the focus of their character arcs revolve around them compared to male characters with mates and kits, none of which would be a problem for the individual characters or implies the individual characters are poorly or misogynistically written, again the issue is the pattern. Please try to actually read what I was saying instead of reducing my argument to a straw man. the phenomena of female’s with romance happening in their lives being of greater focus probably can be attributed to the fact that romance, regardless of whether or not it’s the main genre, sub-genre, subplot or side theme etc. is the top-selling category of literature, and definitely sparks the greatest amount of divisive conversation/drama and overall discussion in practically every fandom. There’s more shipping wars/ shipping art and discussion over romance than other topics, there’s no denying people get very involved and passionate about who’s romancing who in literature/movies and other entertainment. And speaking purely from a objective statistical standpoint, the number of female readers that indulge in romance literature when compared to men is a staggering 5:1 ratio approximately. So from a marketing and writing standpoint, makes more sense for there to be more She-cats getting romance focused stories than Tom’s given there’s a proportionately larger number of women than men in the audience that engages in romance much more frequently. I mean. Just seems logical for there to be more she-cat focused romances, given that women engage more actively in romance than men. And generally the audience has easier time and forms a greater connection, and finds the character more relatable when they match the readers gender. Makes it easier to walk in their shoes sort of speak.
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Post by halogen on May 18, 2022 11:24:30 GMT -5
Sunny wasn't talking about them being pregnant, obviously both male and female characters can have mates and kits and the female ones get pregnant first. Just talking about a pattern that female characters with mates and kits are more likely to have a larger percentage of the focus of their character arcs revolve around them compared to male characters with mates and kits, none of which would be a problem for the individual characters or implies the individual characters are poorly or misogynistically written, again the issue is the pattern. Please try to actually read what I was saying instead of reducing my argument to a straw man. The idea that a series repeatedly using child-rearing as a plot element would be fair to criticize as, as Sunny puts it, "setting expectations" or "making patterns," in a series where the survival of a group of animals isn't the focus. Warriors is a saga based around several generations of wild cats. To say that we shouldn't see how these cats form relationships is a disservice to the worldbuilding by introducing characters "out of the blue" or arbitrarily pairing cats, which makes for worse storytelling. The scope of the series has expanded so far that we know what happens for most seasons in ThunderClan after Rusty's arrival (as the main focus of Warriors is based around a bloodline that might as well be a dynasty at this point), so how these generations form should be explained There are two alternatives to these aspects. First choice is that we kits appearing out of the blue or from unexplained parentage, which reintroduces a problem of the cats not having established families (leading to things like Graystripe's unfortunate heritage), or we have kits appear from unestablished relationships, which reintroduces problems such as Whitestorm's unusual pairings. The common factor here is that you're asking to undo a fix to two problems from early in the series, for no real benefit other than to appease people who are, if we're being honest, working backwards to justify an ideology. Regarding the strawman accusation, do not mistaken summary for strawman, as you're defending a video which commits this vice far more egregiously than I am. Whether or not I'm polite about pointing this out (the users of this forum REALLY need to learn that whining about tone is not an argument) doesn't actually distract from this double standard. I understand your argument beneath the long-winded prose. That's the problem. But neither I or Sunny is criticizing child-rearing being a plot element, or are saying that those should never be plot points. I agree it is a good thing that those are plot points and they can form interesting plots. Just that the male characters should have romance and their relationships with their children on average be equally a focus of their plots as the female ones. The presence of those plots are not the issue, them being disproportionately given to female characters over male ones is.
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Post by tema on May 18, 2022 12:26:12 GMT -5
But neither I or Sunny is criticizing child-rearing being a plot element, or are saying that those should never be plot points. The latter there is a strawman. Nobody here presented that idea - you are dismissing a notion that nobody except you is saying. And with regards to the former, Sunny outright said that the series seemingly "expects" females to be queens as part of an author bias. There is an entire section dedicated to it. I agree it is a good thing that those are plot points and they can form interesting plots. Just that the male characters should have romance and their relationships with their children on average be equally a focus of their plots as the female ones. The presence of those plots are not the issue, them being disproportionately given to female characters over male ones is. Lionblaze's entire drama in TPoT was based around whether or not he felt he could pursue romance while the prophecy hung over his head. Firestar's Quest used the title character's feelings towards Sandstorm and Spottedleaf being divided as his internal conflict (and, before anyone handwaves this with Spottedleaf being a ghost, death doesn't stop love in Warriors. Spottedleaf was killed in OotS because the authors knew this plot would need to be retreaded since Firestar still had feelings for her. There's a point to be made about killing a female character and viewing one as disposable, but the counters for this are that Firestar's relationship drama plots need acknowledged for this to be made, and, if the number of thrrads on here of people wishing certain characters to die off is anything to go by, characters do have a lifespan of usefulness in the story and Spottedleaf's was as spent as someone like Hawkfrost). Graystripe copes with the passing of both of his mates and left ThunderClan to be with his first litter. Bramblestar's Storm. Ravenpaw's Farewell. Crowfeather's Trial. None of this is mentioned in any great detail (and, yes, I went back and finished the video, after a break since making that reaction comment). The revision you present here is unsubstantiated; the idea that the males in the series lacks romance centered on men dismissed that there are entire books that use it as the main internal conflict.
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Post by Sand on May 18, 2022 12:38:55 GMT -5
Your comment seems like bait to start an argument. Please stop trying to provoke others. I don't think disagreeing is bait but eh I'll be more gentle about it next time. Please do. Sometimes posts come off snarky or as bait to members. We don’t allow that.
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