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Post by tema on May 15, 2022 15:45:11 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Moonlight is generally hated and it is mentioned about her taking mates and leaving them. Moonlight is hated because she's an idiot and abandons her children. Nobody cares about her taking up multiple mates.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 15, 2022 16:27:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, people negatively mention two toms taking on mates at the same time or in rapid succession. Those two being Whitestorm, who many wanted him to be loyal to only Willowpelt, and Appledusk, who is hated. In fact, I see people defending Appledusk at times, arguing the question of if he really cheated on Mapleshade or not. Meanwhile, Moonlight is generally hated and it is mentioned about her taking mates and leaving them. Are you speaking from an in-universe perspective or meta? Because as you've said, people already don't like the idea of Whitestorm being with Brindleface for one reason or another and Appledusk is of course hated for his cheating and any defense to this is very much a minority. I don't think I've seen anyone hate Moonlight specifically for leaving her mates, but when her second mate is mentioned, she's neither praised nor demonized for leaving him like she is with Root. Meta, the two toms I listed are the only ones that receive crap while people are fine with Blizzard(forgot the prefix) from ShadowClan having two mates in succession or at the same time. Jake also doesn't receive critique for this, not does Tigerstar.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 15, 2022 16:28:24 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Moonlight is generally hated and it is mentioned about her taking mates and leaving them. Moonlight is hated because she's an idiot and abandons her children. Nobody cares about her taking up multiple mates. It's both, I have seen people mention her mates. --- "31:46 ("Tigerstar and Sasha" as a name.) - She's complaining about Tigerstar's name being first now as a sign of sexism? Really? There's actually a very simple reason that doesn't add more tinfoil to your hat - Tigerstar and Sasha rolls off the tongue better. The entire thing can be smoothly read back; switching it means putting the last 'a' in Sasha beside the 'a' in and. The conscious break when reading it back is obtrusive. And, yeah, the name Tigerstar could have been dropped from it (or at least after the first issue), but the entire point of the comic was to showcase a character who had direct relationship towards one of the series' villains, so there's no real issue with having it be the overarching title. Acknowledging this feeds back into the whole "but she's there in relation to the male characters," but the book averts this by exploring Sasha's character independently of Tigerstar. She's literally judging a book by its cover and still getting it wrong." I think she meant it is moreso that they could name it without Tigerstar, and by doing so, somewhat taking away from Sasha? The book can easily just be about her without mentioning him. However, I think that was more of a marketing aim than a point if sexism. People know Tigerstar, not Sasha really. So I have to half her point here.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 15, 2022 16:38:26 GMT -5
I appreciate the effort put into the video, it definitely holds up better than some video essays that are just "let me read an excerpt from the book dramatically and then ramble about it". This one has actual numbers and what have you which help make it appear like a lot more time was spent on it. Some of its statistical analysis does seem to be rather faulty though. I feel like a more rigorous form of statistical analysis would be great for this kind of thing, as it would help determine the prevalence of outliers. Simple mean calculation is not always adequate
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
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Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 15, 2022 16:43:59 GMT -5
Rainleaf Said. Except people don’t want her to explicitly be wrong all the time? Moreover people want Squirrelflight to take responsibility and accountability for her insubordination and often disruptive behavior and influence and actually grow up and stop behaving like an entitled 15 year old when she is wrong. and no disrespect, but Squirrelflight literally tried to gaslight/blackmail Bramblestar into having a second litter of kits when he clearly didn’t want to, and even goes so far as getting indignant and claiming he didn’t love her anymore simply because he didn’t want more children. And I’m perplexed that people think that’s not abusive?? Sorry?? manipulating or using coercion to get something out of your partner involuntary without their consent is wrong no matter how you slice it. And it’s frankly downright ludicrous to suggest otherwise. And talking about double-standards, it’s quite bothersome that people where up in arms when Finleap was being disgusting and tried to force Twigbranch to have kits when she didn’t want too. Then when the roles are reversed, the she-cat is validated and the Tom is considered abusive for not giving in to his wife’s demands for children. Which has gross implications written all over it. Since it construes that She-cats are within their rights to not have kits(which they are), while a husbands love for his wife is invalidated because he doesn’t want children, and is being abusive when refusing to have them, and that a husband is morally obligated to give their wife kids, whether he consents or wants them. this is why it’s difficult for gender equality discussions to gain traction and have civil and constructive debates over. People speak of equality and social justice for one side, while subsequently blackballing the other. People don’t seem to realize that in order to achieve true equality, both sides must be kept in mind in the trajectory for a better world. Both sides must improve and work together. Now listen. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for gender equality, equal pay, opportunities etc. and the day a women abuser commits domestic violence against a man, and immediately gets locked in jail, no questions asked like the opposition, will be a triumphant victory for male abuse victims. A world where a man doesn’t have to just standby and take the blunt of abuse, without any real resource to take action against their abuser without being tied in a huge legal, and financial battle, and having to compile huge stockpiles of evidence to even dream of winning such a case would be a blessing. if a person is abusive, regardless of their gender. Should receive just and equal punishment and consequences for their heinous crimes. But Squirrelflight did learn? She backed off and accepted not having another litter? He didn't, ever. Meanwhile he couldn't listen to her without throwing stuff in her face and trying to make her seem like all she cared about was kits. Which wasn't the case. He refuses to listen to her and it's a vicious cycle of her trying to prove she knows what she's doing because her mate obviously doesn't trust her or her abilities. Like he literally seems to stuff his ears with moss whenever she has something to say regardless of the topic. He was emotionally neglecting her throughout that but people focused on the kits part. Both are at fault here but there have been several red flags coming him moreso than her. But, a lot of people hate Squirrelflight so they don't really want to see past that. We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.
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Post by stupidflower on May 15, 2022 16:50:48 GMT -5
I personally like listening to analysis and commentary videos, so I did not find the video to be too long or tedious. I went in not thinking Warriors was sexist, and came out thinking the same thing. While Sunny makes good points, she doesn’t go to in depth into the situations, such as when talking about why ThunderClan cats seem to respect Graystripe more than Squirrelflight. She doesn’t really consider that perhaps the bias isn’t about gender, but personality, and fitness for the role. I never found ThunderClan being against Squirrelflight to be sexist, just them perhaps not thinking her to be fit for leadership. Overall she made some good points, but maybe didn’t look as deep into the scenarios as was necessary to make these judgements.
also, 100% agree with what Cloudstorm said about how females verses males are thought of in bad relationships. The gender really doesn’t matter, the action does, and it’s kind of infuriating that people often seem to view a female as being more ‘right’ or more of a ‘victim’ in a bad relationship, no matter the situation or her role.
I agree that Bramblestar rejecting the idea of kits was in no way abusive. People might argue that he wouldn’t have to do as much as a father as a mother would, and should give Squirrelflight what she wants, but that really implies that a father isn’t as important as a mother to their kit, and isn’t a good argument if we’re talking about gender equality. Squirrelflight, in my opinion, shouldn’t have tried to pressure Bramblestar into having kits, and while I disagree with many of Bramblestar’s actions in SqH, I don’t think he was wrong for not wanting more kits. I do believe him bringing up Squirrelflight’s need to have kits as an argument tactic when talking about the Sisters was unnecessary and kind of, for lack of a better word, jerk-ish.
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Post by tema on May 15, 2022 17:00:47 GMT -5
Moonlight is hated because she's an idiot and abandons her children. Nobody cares about her taking up multiple mates. It's both, I have seen people mention her mates. "People" is that they can say whatever they want, but the meanderings of some prat don't necessarily reflect the mainstream view of the fandom. Speaking from experience with "people," I have literally never heard anyone even comment on Moonlight taking multiple mates since she's introduced in the series well after several characters of both genders have done so, and only one of her past relationships is explored (in contrast to Graystripe, who gets flak for actively pining over two characters). "31:46 ("Tigerstar and Sasha" as a name.) - She's complaining about Tigerstar's name being first now as a sign of sexism? Really? There's actually a very simple reason that doesn't add more tinfoil to your hat - Tigerstar and Sasha rolls off the tongue better. The entire thing can be smoothly read back; switching it means putting the last 'a' in Sasha beside the 'a' in and. The conscious break when reading it back is obtrusive. And, yeah, the name Tigerstar could have been dropped from it (or at least after the first issue), but the entire point of the comic was to showcase a character who had direct relationship towards one of the series' villains, so there's no real issue with having it be the overarching title. Acknowledging this feeds back into the whole "but she's there in relation to the male characters," but the book averts this by exploring Sasha's character independently of Tigerstar. She's literally judging a book by its cover and still getting it wrong."I think she meant it is moreso that they could name it without Tigerstar, and by doing so, somewhat taking away from Sasha? The book can easily just be about her without mentioning him. However, I think that was more of a marketing aim than a point if sexism. People know Tigerstar, not Sasha really. So I have to half her point here. I already addressed this argument, see the bold in quote. ----- "[Bramblestar] refuses to listen to [Squirrelflight] and it's a vicious cycle of her trying to prove she knows what she's doing because her mate obviously doesn't trust her or her abilities" The book actually has Squirrelflight make this accusation (page 98-99 on paperback, the sentence splits between two pages). Bramblestar reveals he did listen, but Squirrelflight's proposal (with regards to the SkyClan move) has too many issues that she didn't account for. This trend, of acting (or even speaking) before thinking, continues throughout the book, up until Firestar points it out directly to Squirrelflight (p 344).
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 15, 2022 17:05:50 GMT -5
Are you speaking from an in-universe perspective or meta? Because as you've said, people already don't like the idea of Whitestorm being with Brindleface for one reason or another and Appledusk is of course hated for his cheating and any defense to this is very much a minority. I don't think I've seen anyone hate Moonlight specifically for leaving her mates, but when her second mate is mentioned, she's neither praised nor demonized for leaving him like she is with Root. Meta, the two toms I listed are the only ones that receive crap while people are fine with Blizzard(forgot the prefix) from ShadowClan having two mates in succession or at the same time. Jake also doesn't receive critique for this, not does Tigerstar. Do you mean Blizzardwing, Blackstar's father? To be fair, him cheating on Featherstorm was revealed only pretty recently and the novellas don't really get talked about all that much in general, save for a few exceptions like with MV, and even then, I never see Blizzardwing being liked whenever it does get brought up. And it's different with Jake and Tigerstar since neither of them ever cheated on their mates (at most, you can argue that Jake was an absent father for one reason or another, but Quince nor her kits ever resent him for it and Scourge and his littermates are several seasons older than Firestar anyway). Context is important. And from what I've seen, people are only bothered by Whitestorm having two mates either because of the timing since both Brindleface and Willowpelt were in the nursery at the same time, they think it doesn't seem like something he'd do, or they just don't think Ashfur deserves him as a father.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 15, 2022 18:41:08 GMT -5
I personally like listening to analysis and commentary videos, so I did not find the video to be too long or tedious. I went in not thinking Warriors was sexist, and came out thinking the same thing. While Sunny makes good points, she doesn’t go to in depth into the situations, such as when talking about why ThunderClan cats seem to respect Graystripe more than Squirrelflight. She doesn’t really consider that perhaps the bias isn’t about gender, but personality, and fitness for the role. I never found ThunderClan being against Squirrelflight to be sexist, just them perhaps not thinking her to be fit for leadership. Overall she made some good points, but maybe didn’t look as deep into the scenarios as was necessary to make these judgements. I definitely think the argument about them respecting Graystripe over Squirrel in that moment wasn't a sexist thing and something the creator should have considered. Squirrelflight WASN'T fit to be the leader given the situation about Ashfur and Bramblestar. It was something that was harming her and making her make some questionable decisions to try and protect her mate's body. While what she was doing was understandable, it probably didn't make her the best leader to try and keep a crumbling clan together. Graystripe WAS really wise in TBC and his experience, and the fact he had distance from the situation, honestly made him a better choice in that moment.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 15, 2022 19:32:21 GMT -5
wait why are people talking about Jake having two mates at the same time? Scourge, Ruby, and Socks are canonically years older than Firestar and his littermates. (We know this because Scourge was a kit when Tigerstar was an apprentice). There’s not really any reason to think Quince and Nutmeg overlapped as Jake’s mates.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on May 15, 2022 19:37:36 GMT -5
Rainleaf Said. Except people don’t want her to explicitly be wrong all the time? Moreover people want Squirrelflight to take responsibility and accountability for her insubordination and often disruptive behavior and influence and actually grow up and stop behaving like an entitled 15 year old when she is wrong. and no disrespect, but Squirrelflight literally tried to gaslight/blackmail Bramblestar into having a second litter of kits when he clearly didn’t want to, and even goes so far as getting indignant and claiming he didn’t love her anymore simply because he didn’t want more children. And I’m perplexed that people think that’s not abusive?? Sorry?? manipulating or using coercion to get something out of your partner involuntary without their consent is wrong no matter how you slice it. And it’s frankly downright ludicrous to suggest otherwise. And talking about double-standards, it’s quite bothersome that people where up in arms when Finleap was being disgusting and tried to force Twigbranch to have kits when she didn’t want too. Then when the roles are reversed, the she-cat is validated and the Tom is considered abusive for not giving in to his wife’s demands for children. Which has gross implications written all over it. Since it construes that She-cats are within their rights to not have kits(which they are), while a husbands love for his wife is invalidated because he doesn’t want children, and is being abusive when refusing to have them, and that a husband is morally obligated to give their wife kids, whether he consents or wants them. this is why it’s difficult for gender equality discussions to gain traction and have civil and constructive debates over. People speak of equality and social justice for one side, while subsequently blackballing the other. People don’t seem to realize that in order to achieve true equality, both sides must be kept in mind in the trajectory for a better world. Both sides must improve and work together. Now listen. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for gender equality, equal pay, opportunities etc. and the day a women abuser commits domestic violence against a man, and immediately gets locked in jail, no questions asked like the opposition, will be a triumphant victory for male abuse victims. A world where a man doesn’t have to just standby and take the blunt of abuse, without any real resource to take action against their abuser without being tied in a huge legal, and financial battle, and having to compile huge stockpiles of evidence to even dream of winning such a case would be a blessing. if a person is abusive, regardless of their gender. Should receive just and equal punishment and consequences for their heinous crimes. first of all squirrelflight diddent try to ford bramblestar to have kits secund of all she's aloud to want something and be opset if she doesn't get it. If she was perfect people would hate her for being a Mary Sue if she has flaws than people hate her for those what I'm saying is characters have flaws sometimes there selfish but those flaws make her my favorite character!
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 15, 2022 19:42:33 GMT -5
wait why are people talking about Jake having two mates at the same time? Scourge, Ruby, and Socks are canonically years older than Firestar and his littermates. (We know this because Scourge was a kit when Tigerstar was an apprentice). There’s not really any reason to think Quince and Nutmeg overlapped as Jake’s mates. And even if they did, I feel like early Warriors was much more lax about multiple mates? In recent books, Blackstar's dad and Appledusk have been called out for cheating. This is why it's so hard to do an analysis like this over such an old book series. The in-universe rules have pretty drastically changed.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 15, 2022 19:55:21 GMT -5
I personally like listening to analysis and commentary videos, so I did not find the video to be too long or tedious. I went in not thinking Warriors was sexist, and came out thinking the same thing. While Sunny makes good points, she doesn’t go to in depth into the situations, such as when talking about why ThunderClan cats seem to respect Graystripe more than Squirrelflight. She doesn’t really consider that perhaps the bias isn’t about gender, but personality, and fitness for the role. I never found ThunderClan being against Squirrelflight to be sexist, just them perhaps not thinking her to be fit for leadership. Overall she made some good points, but maybe didn’t look as deep into the scenarios as was necessary to make these judgements. I definitely think the argument about them respecting Graystripe over Squirrel in that moment wasn't a sexist thing and something the creator should have considered. Squirrelflight WASN'T fit to be the leader given the situation about Ashfur and Bramblestar. It was something that was harming her and making her make some questionable decisions to try and protect her mate's body. While what she was doing was understandable, it probably didn't make her the best leader to try and keep a crumbling clan together. Graystripe WAS really wise in TBC and his experience, and the fact he had distance from the situation, honestly made him a better choice in that moment. Some cat also brought up Ivypool as the cat who should lead them after Squirrelflight gets kidnapped. Granted, it was because she was Firestar's kin, but still. Squirrelflight's gender really has nothing to do with anything. I guess you can make an argument that she was being written stereotypically in TBC as yet another female character who only cares about her significant other to the point of being irrational, but given the circumstances, I don't think this should really mean anything, either. I don't know, I just feel like there are better hills to die on. Like I said, I get the arguments, but I also can't help but feel like a lot of it is just being kinda nitpicky. Like I keep saying, context is important.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 15, 2022 20:05:06 GMT -5
wait why are people talking about Jake having two mates at the same time? Scourge, Ruby, and Socks are canonically years older than Firestar and his littermates. (We know this because Scourge was a kit when Tigerstar was an apprentice). There’s not really any reason to think Quince and Nutmeg overlapped as Jake’s mates. And even if they did, I feel like early Warriors was much more lax about multiple mates? In recent books, Blackstar's dad and Appledusk have been called out for cheating. This is why it's so hard to do an analysis like this over such an old book series. The in-universe rules have pretty drastically changed. Then again, there's also a huge difference between cheating and being in an open or poly relationship. Mapleshade and Featherstorm clearly had no idea what their respective mates did, but someone like, say, Toadskip, could have two mates at the same time so long as everyone involved was fine with it. And if we still take the whole "queens can keep the father's name a secret" thing seriously, then who's to say some toms simply didn't just agree to become surrogates without it meaning anything? That said, I do agree. When looking at the other arcs, the early books are just weird.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2022 20:15:11 GMT -5
first of all squirrelflight diddent try to ford bramblestar to have kits secund of all she's aloud to want something and be opset if she doesn't get it. If she was perfect people would hate her for being a Mary Sue if she has flaws than people hate her for those what I'm saying is characters have flaws sometimes there selfish but those flaws make her my favorite character! She did though. Here’s the quote, and if you want the pages it’s 22-23 of Squirrelflight’s Hope: There’s nothing wrong with liking Squirrelflight. Nobody said she’s a mary sue either. People are allowed to dislike her because of her flaws just as are people are allowed to like her for her flaws. I’m personally very mixed on Squirrelflight. While I like her sense of nobility and dedication, it also makes her extremely annoying and unbearable at times. As for her being upset at something she didn’t get, can’t you say the same thing for Finleap? Is it alright for him to force Twigbranch to have his kits and be upset when she says no? Notice how bad that sounds. Bramblestar is not entitled to have her kits if he doesn’t want to. It should be an equal say. Period.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 15, 2022 20:36:22 GMT -5
I definitely think the argument about them respecting Graystripe over Squirrel in that moment wasn't a sexist thing and something the creator should have considered. Squirrelflight WASN'T fit to be the leader given the situation about Ashfur and Bramblestar. It was something that was harming her and making her make some questionable decisions to try and protect her mate's body. While what she was doing was understandable, it probably didn't make her the best leader to try and keep a crumbling clan together. Graystripe WAS really wise in TBC and his experience, and the fact he had distance from the situation, honestly made him a better choice in that moment. Some cat also brought up Ivypool as the cat who should lead them after Squirrelflight gets kidnapped. Granted, it was because she was Firestar's kin, but still. Squirrelflight's gender really has nothing to do with anything. I guess you can make an argument that she was being written stereotypically in TBC as yet another female character who only cares about her significant other to the point of being irrational, but given the circumstances, I don't think this should really mean anything, either. I don't know, I just feel like there are better hills to die on. Like I said, I get the arguments, but I also can't help but feel like a lot of it is just being kinda nitpicky. Like I keep saying, context is important. Maybe it's an unpopular opinion of mine, but I don't really get the insistence that Ivypool lead. Graystripe had already been a temporary leader in the past, and he was a cat the entire clan respected and trusted. Maybe I'm biased though, because I'm glad they had Graystripe do something so significant for his clan before he died. Much better than what Sandstorm got. I also don't see how that's written stereotypically? These cats are written like humans. Most humans, who are deeply in love with their SO and have been through so much together, are going to do ANYTHING within their power to get their loved ones back. It's just how it's realistic that Lionblaze lashes out at Shadowsight because he needs someone to blame for the loss of his parents. I agree that the video gets nitpicky, which also kind of hinders the arguments. I think when you do this kind of video, you really have to consider 'is this sexism or is there another, more likely reason, that the events may have gone this way?' I personally think TBC does a pretty good job with the ladies. Daisy's importance to the clan is reiterated, Bristlefrost ends up being a strong protagonist near the end, Spotfur is shown to be spunky and willing to stand up for what is right. I get what she's trying to say, but I think in trying to grab at any example that might be remotely sexist, it really waters down the video
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on May 15, 2022 20:44:38 GMT -5
first of all squirrelflight diddent try to ford bramblestar to have kits secund of all she's aloud to want something and be opset if she doesn't get it. If she was perfect people would hate her for being a Mary Sue if she has flaws than people hate her for those what I'm saying is characters have flaws sometimes there selfish but those flaws make her my favorite character! She did though. Here’s the quote, and if you want the pages it’s 22-23 of Squirrelflight’s Hope: There’s nothing wrong with liking Squirrelflight. Nobody said she’s a mary sue either. People are allowed to dislike her because of her flaws just as are people are allowed to like her for her flaws. I’m personally very mixed on Squirrelflight. While I like her sense of nobility and dedication, it also makes her extremely annoying and unbearable at times. As for her being upset at something she didn’t get, can’t you say the same thing for Finleap? Is it alright for him to force Twigbranch to have his kits and be upset when she says no? Notice how bad that sounds. Bramblestar is not entitled to have her kits if he doesn’t want to. It should be an equal say. Period. the difference between finleap and squirrelflight is that finleap was litterly financing kits and squirrelflight was asking and if afraid of getting older and wants to care for cats she doesn't dimand that they have kits. Also in this sentence bramblestar is the one to get made even if she just mentioned kits.
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#a3c5e6
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 15, 2022 21:17:42 GMT -5
Some cat also brought up Ivypool as the cat who should lead them after Squirrelflight gets kidnapped. Granted, it was because she was Firestar's kin, but still. Squirrelflight's gender really has nothing to do with anything. I guess you can make an argument that she was being written stereotypically in TBC as yet another female character who only cares about her significant other to the point of being irrational, but given the circumstances, I don't think this should really mean anything, either. I don't know, I just feel like there are better hills to die on. Like I said, I get the arguments, but I also can't help but feel like a lot of it is just being kinda nitpicky. Like I keep saying, context is important. Maybe it's an unpopular opinion of mine, but I don't really get the insistence that Ivypool lead. Graystripe had already been a temporary leader in the past, and he was a cat the entire clan respected and trusted. Maybe I'm biased though, because I'm glad they had Graystripe do something so significant for his clan before he died. Much better than what Sandstorm got. I also don't see how that's written stereotypically? These cats are written like humans. Most humans, who are deeply in love with their SO and have been through so much together, are going to do ANYTHING within their power to get their loved ones back. It's just how it's realistic that Lionblaze lashes out at Shadowsight because he needs someone to blame for the loss of his parents. I agree that the video gets nitpicky, which also kind of hinders the arguments. I think when you do this kind of video, you really have to consider 'is this sexism or is there another, more likely reason, that the events may have gone this way?' I personally think TBC does a pretty good job with the ladies. Daisy's importance to the clan is reiterated, Bristlefrost ends up being a strong protagonist near the end, Spotfur is shown to be spunky and willing to stand up for what is right. I get what she's trying to say, but I think in trying to grab at any example that might be remotely sexist, it really waters down the video Yeah, I really don't get the insistence on Ivypool, either. I really feel like she's way too overhyped as both a character and a deputy/leader candidate. Out of everyone, Graystripe was the perfect choice, and I don't even like him that much. And it's hard for me to explain, but you know that whole "women are shallow and emotional" thing? Someone trying to argue that the series has an issue with gender may run with this idea and use Squirrelflight's selfishness as evidence that it's giving into a harmful and outdated stereotype, even though, again, her actions were done under very specific circumstances. And yeah, it's also one that doesn't really hold much weigh if you think about it for more than five seconds. Firestar was willing to put his SkyClan mission on hold to find Sandstorm and even Graystripe told Jaypaw to save Millie over the kits if something went wrong during the birth. I would think that wanting to save your partner no matter the cost was normal. Squirrelflight just so happens to be a she-cat who was in charge during a very unusual time in the Clan's history. Again, there are better hills to die on.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2022 21:40:33 GMT -5
the difference between finleap and squirrelflight is that finleap was litterly financing kits and squirrelflight was asking and if afraid of getting older and wants to care for cats she doesn't dimand that they have kits. Also in this sentence bramblestar is the one to get made even if she just mentioned kits. There really isn’t a difference tbh. In both situations, they think kits = love which is completely ridiculous. Considering all the stuff that was going on with SkyClan at the time it completely makes sense why Bramblestar wouldn’t want any. He could definitely control his anger better though. Anyways, Squirrelflight played the “don’t you love me anymore?” card which comes off as incredibly manipulative and guilt-trippy imo. We’ll just have to agree to disagree cause nobody is going to change my mind on this particular issue. 👍
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Post by whiteflight on May 15, 2022 21:53:34 GMT -5
She did though. Here’s the quote, and if you want the pages it’s 22-23 of Squirrelflight’s Hope: There’s nothing wrong with liking Squirrelflight. Nobody said she’s a mary sue either. People are allowed to dislike her because of her flaws just as are people are allowed to like her for her flaws. I’m personally very mixed on Squirrelflight. While I like her sense of nobility and dedication, it also makes her extremely annoying and unbearable at times. As for her being upset at something she didn’t get, can’t you say the same thing for Finleap? Is it alright for him to force Twigbranch to have his kits and be upset when she says no? Notice how bad that sounds. Bramblestar is not entitled to have her kits if he doesn’t want to. It should be an equal say. Period. the difference between finleap and squirrelflight is that finleap was litterly financing kits and squirrelflight was asking and if afraid of getting older and wants to care for cats she doesn't dimand that they have kits. Also in this sentence bramblestar is the one to get made even if she just mentioned kits. It is kind of a demand. As you can see Squrrielflight wants more kits but when Bramblestar says no Squrrielflight says "Don't you love me anymore." Just because Bramblestar doesn't want to have more kits doesn't mean he doesn't love Squrrielflight. I know this is kinda off topic but I've seen some couples do this to their partner. If their partner doesn't want to do what the person wants the person always gets sad or mad and say the same thing Squrrielflight says this causes the partner to feel guilty and force themselves to do what the person wants. This is not good because it's a type of manipulation.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 15, 2022 22:31:53 GMT -5
"Submissive" Tawnypelt: Tells Tigerstar to eff off, beats up Scorchfur for insulting Rowanstar while Rowanstar sits passively, calls out Tigerheart on being a tool in her novella and effs off to do what she wants, brutalizes Berrynose, named her kid Tigerkit just out of sheer spite.
"Dominant" Bramblestar: Wants daddy's attention really badly, sits there uselessly with his tail between his legs when Rowanstar demands Violetkit, spends the entirety of TBC as a damsel in distress, can't control his clan in Squirrelflight's Hope, only beat Hawkfrost with cheap tactics.
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Post by Chicken on May 15, 2022 22:45:34 GMT -5
I'll probably watch the video soon, but I don't think I need to in order to see that it's absolute crap just like all the other "Warriors is sexist against she-cat" arguments. (I'm not saying the video is crap, I'm sure it's very well put together, I mean the argument is) Yeah, statistics may say one thing, but who gets the most characterization in most of these arcs? (she-cats) Who is usually written as being in the right? (she-cats) Who is the majority of the cheaters and the murderers in this series? (toms). The writers give the she-cats the woe is me storylines so readers will root for them, they want people to like them, I just can't get behind this argument at all.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 15, 2022 22:58:00 GMT -5
I'll probably watch the video soon, but I don't think I need to in order to see that it's absolute crap just like all the other "Warriors is sexist against she-cat" arguments. (I'm not saying the video is crap, I'm sure it's very well put together, I mean the argument is) Yeah, statistics may say one thing, but who gets the most characterization in most of these arcs? (she-cats) Who is usually written as being in the right? (she-cats) Who is the majority of the cheaters and the murderers in this series? (toms). The writers give the she-cats the woe is me storylines so readers will root for them, they want people to like them, I just can't get behind this argument at all. THIS. i've been saying this for years. not just for warriors, but a lot of media now a days. most peoples favorites in warriors end up being female characters becuase they get all the attention. people claim the writers make them "suffer" but what does that do? it only serves to make the reader root for them even MORE. it all has a purpose. and yet majority male characters dont get half of this special attention or cheering from the audience.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 15, 2022 23:22:04 GMT -5
protagonist she-cats suffer a lot… because they’re protagonists. part of a story is that the main character is often the spotlight and recipient of all the plot’s drama and horrors, because otherwise they become a bland bystander who observes bad things happening to some distant third party, and that’s…not a compelling story.
like lionblaze is regularly regarded as the most boring protagonist largely because nothing interesting (RE: tragic) really happens to him compared to his siblings.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 15, 2022 23:37:43 GMT -5
That was a nice watch, thanks for sharing. (If anyone thinks the video is too long, I would recommend doing a mindless activity while you watch it, like drawing. This video is worth watching.) I liked how Sunny started out by listing all of the stats. Personally I don't even think the disparity is that bad--it's discouraging but not terrible--but I appreciate having all of the facts right at the beginning for reference. What really bugs me about the gender issue is the fact that basically all of the she-cats have been involved in romantic relationships at some point of their lives. I'm still not happy Ivypool got a mate when she never showed any desire for a mate in OOTS (at least from what I remember). And I didn't know about Leopardstar getting a love interest in her super edition--what a terrible change. That was one of the things about Leopardstar I really liked. I don't understand why the authors felt the need to change that. My theory on why the she-cats are always shoved into relationships is because there's an increasing risk of inbreeding in the clans. So the authors feel like they have to pair all of the she-cats to get enough variety in the bloodlines. Which is why I think there needs to be a change to the way clans work so this issue isn't as prevalent. Do the male cats have less relationships though? I haven't read DOTC, but quite literally every single male protagonist in the main series has ALSO had a romantic relationship plotline with the exception of Shadowsight (No I'm not counting Flametail's short-lived butt). And with the way ASC is progressing, it seems likely Frostpaw will also end up similarly, so even that small disparity is likely to be fixed. This is also true for every single SE protagonist. Warriors just really, really likes pairing off characters
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Post by tema on May 16, 2022 0:30:41 GMT -5
Some cat also brought up Ivypool as the cat who should lead them after Squirrelflight gets kidnapped. Granted, it was because she was Firestar's kin, but still. Squirrelflight's gender really has nothing to do with anything. I guess you can make an argument that she was being written stereotypically in TBC as yet another female character who only cares about her significant other to the point of being irrational, but given the circumstances, I don't think this should really mean anything, either. I don't know, I just feel like there are better hills to die on. Like I said, I get the arguments, but I also can't help but feel like a lot of it is just being kinda nitpicky. Like I keep saying, context is important. Maybe it's an unpopular opinion of mine, but I don't really get the insistence that Ivypool lead. Graystripe had already been a temporary leader in the past, and he was a cat the entire clan respected and trusted. Maybe I'm biased though, because I'm glad they had Graystripe do something so significant for his clan before he died. Much better than what Sandstorm got. Graystripe has the experience, but he doesn't want to lead. He's not someone who likes to make those heavy-handed responsibilities, even if he has the skills for it. That's not to say he wants to be a complete oaf, but it's a viewpoint that a lot of people would actually hold in a similar position, as he realizes that each decision he makes could cost the lives of his Clanmates (even if his reign is only temporary). I believe part of that view spills into a lack of a real effort on his part in TBC. Ivypool, meanwhile, while she hasn't exactly been in a leadership position before, demonstrated through her spying that she's capable of handling tense situations and acting on behalf of her Clanmates. She has a cool head and partially understands how the Dark Forest works. She's not the best choice that ThunderClan had at the time (that would still be Graystripe), but she's still a viable candidate, and, unlike Graystripe, one that could be seen actually becoming an official leader one day.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on May 16, 2022 0:34:42 GMT -5
Rainleaf Said. Except she doesn’t actually learn from her mistake. she more or less comes into acceptance that she doesn’t need a second litter of kits to be happy. But never acknowledges that pressuring Bramblestar was wrong to begin with, or that constantly undermining and being insubordinate was wrong. And there’s not exactly any moments highlighting what a stellar performance Squirrelflight is doing as deputy to exactly procure much respect or aptitude of her abilities. And bramblestar did listen to her about moving Skyclan, and was mostly angered by her not conferring with him first before presenting her idea, and showcasing a disunited and contradicting front. And then she runs off on a private excursion against his wishes and gets captured for 3 days, undoubtedly worrying everyone. She’s proven multiple times to not be able to follow even the most basic of instructions. and there’s incidents of him attempting to be emotionally supportive to her, one example being him being sympathetic towards her longing to have more kits, and it being difficult to witness Sparkpelt giving Birth, and she immediately gets snarky and throws it back in his face derisively. bristlefrost #1 Squirrelflight was basically financing as you put it just like Finleap. She lays down an ultimatum that not satiating her desire for more kits somehow signifies that he doesn’t her love anymore. It’s a manipulative tactic used when people don’t get their own way, by guilt-tripping him that he’s at fault for not wanting more kits.
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Post by Katanaheart on May 16, 2022 0:37:14 GMT -5
All pov cats (hopefully I didn’t miss anyone!) that have had love interests or mates Firestar Bramblestar Feathertail Stormfur Squirrelflight Leafpool Lionblaze Hollyleaf (Technically Fallen Leaves?) Jayfeather Dovewing Ivypool Bristlefrost Rootspring Gray Wing Clear Sky Thunder Wind Runner Bluestar Yellowfang Crookedstar Tallstar Leopardstar Tigerstar II Crowfeather Moth Flight Leafstar Hawkwing Mistystar Cloudstar Tigerstar I Mapleshade Ravenpaw Spottedleaf Pinestar Tawnypelt Pebbleshine Tree Daisy Spotfur Sasha
Pov Cats that lack both Shadowstar Goosefeather Redtail potentially. Mothwing Blackstar potentially. Scourge Mudclaw With the lack of cats being a total of: 6/7. With two she-cats and four toms. Although if Blackstar or Redtail were ever confirmed to have mates/kits or a love interest, it’s fifty fifty for both toms and she-cats that have had povs without mates or love interests. (Well, scratch the fifty fifty by one! I forgot Mudclaw. And soon, Nightstar will also be added as to my knowledge he had no love interest, unless it gets mentioned in his graphic novel.)
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Post by Katanaheart on May 16, 2022 0:45:41 GMT -5
(Editing sucks on mobile. So, apologies on the added post.) But provided I counted correctly. It’s 19 toms and 21 she-cats that have had povs across the various books in which they have either had a mate or love interest.)
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