Gender In Warrior Cats (a video essay by Sunnyfall)
May 14, 2022 15:13:34 GMT -5
mrnnki, dreamingof, and 1 more like this
Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on May 14, 2022 15:13:34 GMT -5
I fully expected Moonkitti to release a video with a similar premise one of these days like she alluded to back in her Ashfur Addendum. But it seems like Sunny did it sooner.
Speaking of Sunnyfall, she has made her own disclaimer at the very start of this video to go into it with an open mind and to be respectful in regards to the opinions of others and how things are worded. So I ask that this thread will be handled the same way.
My own thoughts on this video and the topic of discussion:
Presence in the Books
While I personally don't have much to say on this section focused mostly on gender distribution percentages and statistics across the various books and as a whole, this being included still must've taken Sunnyfall some time and effort to put together and was quite interesting to look at even though there will probably never be an equal number of toms and she-cats when it comes to positions of power, PoVs and everything else included in the Warriors series.
Roles and Characterization
The trend of female character archetypes like being kind and polite, motherly at the right age, bubbly and ditzy or soft-spoken and submissive being in the clear majority across these books while bold and strong she-cats are present but a bit underrepresented overall is rather true.
Antagonists
Once again, there is not much I'm able to add to this conversation or even disagree with. All I want is more female villains who achieve similar heights of popularity than the only two she-cats who managed it so far, Mapleshade and Sleekwhisker, to an extent in the latter case. Most others have largely been forgotten about or never received much characterization in the narrative or focus by the fandom to begin with. Best not to get into the Frecklewish discourse again since it has been debated to death and there is not much anyone can do about her place in the Dark Forest now. Except for the writers but who knows what they might have planned for her in potential future books to come out. I do very much agree that other characters from Mapleshade's Vengeance, who all happen to be toms except for Frecklewish, deserved to go there as well if she did *stares at Oakstar and Appledusk*.
Leadership Roles
There are more gender statistics here about cats in position of power, specifically leaders, deputies and medicine cats. Surprisingly, even I thought that she-cats had a higher percentage than toms at least in the medicine cat position. But even here toms are in the majority once again. As I've said before, there is probably not going to be an even number in any of these statistics ever. Still, it could at least be attempted to get done if the writing team wanted it to. I for one, would love to see a majority of she-cats in leadership positions someday. Just like there was a majority of toms at the same time fullfilling this role on at least two occasions in modern arcs.
Mates and Kits
There is not much for me to say about this section of the video since it mostly consists of pointing out a lot of the she-cat storylines revolving around romace and having kits, with different examples. I do agree that it gets tiring to see almost every she-cat with a similar end goal in mind one way or the other. Or that it seems to be the main focus of some of their stories.
Comparison with Toms
Yet another section with various instances of comparison of the storylines toms get as opposed to she-cats and how many of them involve romance. The only two things from this I personally did not agree with was the take that MothLeaf (or Mothpool) could potentially be seen just as (semi-)canon as TallJake or BarleyRaven if there was more content on their relationship. But that is up to shipping preferences since I no longer ship the latter in fanon and in retrospect do not think one line of Leafpool thinking that Mothwing was beautiful means they are in love. Maybe Leafpool had a crush on Mothwing but Mothwing never seems to act in a way which indicates stronger feelings than friendship towards Leafpool. Then again, I see Mothwing as aroace these days anyways so my bias might be the one talking. But anyone is still obviously allowed to ship these two, of course.
And the other thing was the comparison of Jake and Moonlight with how he is respected by his former mate Quince after he moved on with Nutmeg while Moonlight was hated by Root. I'm not sure if these two can be used as examples of the same or a similar thing. Like Sunny said, the timeline of when Jake became mates with Nutmeg after Quince is unclear although I did see somewhere that Scourge is supposed to be at least four years older than his half-siblings which includes Firestar so who really knows. Anyway, all I'm saying is that Jake and Moonlight handled their lifestyles differently and comparing these two seems not exactly far-fetched but also not very comparable either since we have no real information on the manner in which Quince and Jake broke things off while Root told his viewpoint of Moonlight and her way of life which he simply did not agree with.
The Two Problem Arcs
About TPB and DotC, I'm not sure that I agree that much with most of the examples for TPB except for how FireSand was handled. But one of her other examples is that Swiftpaw gets more credit for fighting the dogs than Brightheart does and I just don't remember that to be true. Yes, he gets mentioned in relation to it occasionally simply because it was his idea to go after them in the first place and then that's it. The other concerns were that she-cats have so many relationships with toms, either platonic or romantic. But that just seems like Clan life to me in this regard so I do not really see an issue.
With DotC, having three tom PoVs in the first place was unnecessary and I do agree with most of the things shown in this segment for that arc in particular. Especially with the amount of she-cats who died to give a tom pain or just how many of the female characters are involved in romantic plotlines, some of which are love triangles.
Parallel Situations
This section consists of more comparisons and I heavily disagree with the alleged one between Firestar and Squirreflight going behind their leaders backs making it seem like the situations with Bluestar and Bramblestar were similar in this regard, the former was confirmed to have dementia and was shocked into paranoia by Tigerstar I's initial betrayal while the latter was letting his nephew Tigerstar II walk all over him in regards to The Sisters but still was considered to be mentally healthy and stable, at least back then. He made those choices willingly while she (Bluestar) was not even aware of a lot of things she said or did being bad decisions during the time Firestar was her deputy. Other than this though, Squirrelflight does get punished way more than most other deputies for disobeying her leader (who also happens to be her mate).
Hurting Toms Too
I agree with quite a bit in this video chapter here but still think the body types thing might just have to do with biological aspects of cat physique even though there certainly are exceptions to these rules to be found in the real world and that of Warrior Cats. I do heavily agree that there definitely need to be way more toms who can handle rejection (like Thrushpelt) or take more active roles with their kits in the nursery (Fernsong novella when).
The Contrary Example
I'm glad The Sisters are presented as being in the wrong here. Yes, they could be seen as interesting but still are horrible and sexist despite this notion. Because with them, toms are the ones being forced into a role they might not want and abandoned when they are not ready.
Moving Forward
Overall, I liked this video and watching it did give me some newer perspectives on adressed matters. I'm glad to have watched it and thankful to Sunnyfall for putting it together.
Speaking of Sunnyfall, she has made her own disclaimer at the very start of this video to go into it with an open mind and to be respectful in regards to the opinions of others and how things are worded. So I ask that this thread will be handled the same way.
My own thoughts on this video and the topic of discussion:
Presence in the Books
While I personally don't have much to say on this section focused mostly on gender distribution percentages and statistics across the various books and as a whole, this being included still must've taken Sunnyfall some time and effort to put together and was quite interesting to look at even though there will probably never be an equal number of toms and she-cats when it comes to positions of power, PoVs and everything else included in the Warriors series.
Roles and Characterization
The trend of female character archetypes like being kind and polite, motherly at the right age, bubbly and ditzy or soft-spoken and submissive being in the clear majority across these books while bold and strong she-cats are present but a bit underrepresented overall is rather true.
Antagonists
Once again, there is not much I'm able to add to this conversation or even disagree with. All I want is more female villains who achieve similar heights of popularity than the only two she-cats who managed it so far, Mapleshade and Sleekwhisker, to an extent in the latter case. Most others have largely been forgotten about or never received much characterization in the narrative or focus by the fandom to begin with. Best not to get into the Frecklewish discourse again since it has been debated to death and there is not much anyone can do about her place in the Dark Forest now. Except for the writers but who knows what they might have planned for her in potential future books to come out. I do very much agree that other characters from Mapleshade's Vengeance, who all happen to be toms except for Frecklewish, deserved to go there as well if she did *stares at Oakstar and Appledusk*.
Leadership Roles
There are more gender statistics here about cats in position of power, specifically leaders, deputies and medicine cats. Surprisingly, even I thought that she-cats had a higher percentage than toms at least in the medicine cat position. But even here toms are in the majority once again. As I've said before, there is probably not going to be an even number in any of these statistics ever. Still, it could at least be attempted to get done if the writing team wanted it to. I for one, would love to see a majority of she-cats in leadership positions someday. Just like there was a majority of toms at the same time fullfilling this role on at least two occasions in modern arcs.
Mates and Kits
There is not much for me to say about this section of the video since it mostly consists of pointing out a lot of the she-cat storylines revolving around romace and having kits, with different examples. I do agree that it gets tiring to see almost every she-cat with a similar end goal in mind one way or the other. Or that it seems to be the main focus of some of their stories.
Comparison with Toms
Yet another section with various instances of comparison of the storylines toms get as opposed to she-cats and how many of them involve romance. The only two things from this I personally did not agree with was the take that MothLeaf (or Mothpool) could potentially be seen just as (semi-)canon as TallJake or BarleyRaven if there was more content on their relationship. But that is up to shipping preferences since I no longer ship the latter in fanon and in retrospect do not think one line of Leafpool thinking that Mothwing was beautiful means they are in love. Maybe Leafpool had a crush on Mothwing but Mothwing never seems to act in a way which indicates stronger feelings than friendship towards Leafpool. Then again, I see Mothwing as aroace these days anyways so my bias might be the one talking. But anyone is still obviously allowed to ship these two, of course.
And the other thing was the comparison of Jake and Moonlight with how he is respected by his former mate Quince after he moved on with Nutmeg while Moonlight was hated by Root. I'm not sure if these two can be used as examples of the same or a similar thing. Like Sunny said, the timeline of when Jake became mates with Nutmeg after Quince is unclear although I did see somewhere that Scourge is supposed to be at least four years older than his half-siblings which includes Firestar so who really knows. Anyway, all I'm saying is that Jake and Moonlight handled their lifestyles differently and comparing these two seems not exactly far-fetched but also not very comparable either since we have no real information on the manner in which Quince and Jake broke things off while Root told his viewpoint of Moonlight and her way of life which he simply did not agree with.
The Two Problem Arcs
About TPB and DotC, I'm not sure that I agree that much with most of the examples for TPB except for how FireSand was handled. But one of her other examples is that Swiftpaw gets more credit for fighting the dogs than Brightheart does and I just don't remember that to be true. Yes, he gets mentioned in relation to it occasionally simply because it was his idea to go after them in the first place and then that's it. The other concerns were that she-cats have so many relationships with toms, either platonic or romantic. But that just seems like Clan life to me in this regard so I do not really see an issue.
With DotC, having three tom PoVs in the first place was unnecessary and I do agree with most of the things shown in this segment for that arc in particular. Especially with the amount of she-cats who died to give a tom pain or just how many of the female characters are involved in romantic plotlines, some of which are love triangles.
Parallel Situations
This section consists of more comparisons and I heavily disagree with the alleged one between Firestar and Squirreflight going behind their leaders backs making it seem like the situations with Bluestar and Bramblestar were similar in this regard, the former was confirmed to have dementia and was shocked into paranoia by Tigerstar I's initial betrayal while the latter was letting his nephew Tigerstar II walk all over him in regards to The Sisters but still was considered to be mentally healthy and stable, at least back then. He made those choices willingly while she (Bluestar) was not even aware of a lot of things she said or did being bad decisions during the time Firestar was her deputy. Other than this though, Squirrelflight does get punished way more than most other deputies for disobeying her leader (who also happens to be her mate).
Hurting Toms Too
I agree with quite a bit in this video chapter here but still think the body types thing might just have to do with biological aspects of cat physique even though there certainly are exceptions to these rules to be found in the real world and that of Warrior Cats. I do heavily agree that there definitely need to be way more toms who can handle rejection (like Thrushpelt) or take more active roles with their kits in the nursery (Fernsong novella when).
The Contrary Example
I'm glad The Sisters are presented as being in the wrong here. Yes, they could be seen as interesting but still are horrible and sexist despite this notion. Because with them, toms are the ones being forced into a role they might not want and abandoned when they are not ready.
Moving Forward
Overall, I liked this video and watching it did give me some newer perspectives on adressed matters. I'm glad to have watched it and thankful to Sunnyfall for putting it together.