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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 25, 2021 20:39:58 GMT -5
She wanted Ivypaw to eat the prey because she's worried about her. Right in the scene shows Ivypaw's just taunting her yet again out of spite and acting like a brat about it. Dovepaw cared about her safety in the scene you posted. She even says she doesn't want to fight her yet Ivypaw starts crap again. :/ It's nice that she's worried about her sister but it doesn't make what she was trying to do right. Dovepaw was trying to convince her sister to break the code, Ivypaw even turns away the suggestion twice before getting annoyed. Ivypaw has every right to be upset with her sister, that's like a sibling trying to encourage another sibling to steal from a grocery store because they look hungry. It's against the clan laws, it doesn't make what she was trying to do right, even if it's with good intention. Good intentions aren't always going to give good results, we've seen this time and time again especially with characters like Squirrelflight, or even Firepaw who was punished for breaking this very same rule. Or what about when Darkstripe convinced Longtail to eat prey, and later Poppydawn died because of it? The scene shows right there, "It was the best piece of fresh-kill she’d seen in days." so eating it would be quite selfish especially since they had other mouths to feed back at camp. Ivypaw may have been manipulated to join the DF but she at least still had morals when it came to putting her clan first.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 25, 2021 21:13:58 GMT -5
Ohhh man , This is thread is bringing back Memories of all the Flame wars that plagued the forums from 2011-2012 about these 3 , and is a Painful Reminder why all my OoTS Books have been doing nothing but Collect Dust on my bookshelf for the last 10 years . It’s Stated so many times in internal monologues that these care for each other so much, and that neither could bare the lose of losing the other , yet Rarely are these 2 not spatting with eachother , or on the Verge of tearing eachother apart . Constantly Blaming the other for there relationship falling apart , and neither willing to try to resolve there issues . I thinks it fair to Say that they were Both little shits as Paws , but at least for the most part Ivypools character has Matured and Developed , while Dovewings imo has practically remained Stagnant . Bruh help, my OOTS books were all on my Kindle that’s been dead and broken for years so now I can only access them on my laptop and even then it hurts to read them from the sheer lack of arc consistency.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 25, 2021 21:19:16 GMT -5
Ohhh man , This is thread is bringing back Memories of all the Flame wars that plagued the forums from 2011-2012 about these 3 , and is a Painful Reminder why all my OoTS Books have been doing nothing but Collect Dust on my bookshelf for the last 10 years . It’s Stated so many times in internal monologues that these care for each other so much, and that neither could bare the lose of losing the other , yet Rarely are these 2 not spatting with eachother , or on the Verge of tearing eachother apart . Constantly Blaming the other for there relationship falling apart , and neither willing to try to resolve there issues . I thinks it fair to Say that they were Both little shits as Paws , but at least for the most part Ivypools character has Matured and Developed , while Dovewings imo has practically remained Stagnant . Bruh help, my OOTS books were all on my Kindle that’s been dead and broken for years so now I can only access them on my laptop and even then it hurts to read them from the sheer lack of arc consistency. Your kindle isn't connected to an Amazon account? Every time I get a new one, it asks me to transfer information from the user.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 25, 2021 21:21:56 GMT -5
Bruh help, my OOTS books were all on my Kindle that’s been dead and broken for years so now I can only access them on my laptop and even then it hurts to read them from the sheer lack of arc consistency. Your kindle isn't connected to an Amazon account? Every time I get a new one, it asks me to transfer information from the user. No no it is, that’s why I can only access my kindle books on my laptop, cause my physical Kindle is broken to the pits of hell and probably in a landfill at the moment, but my account has all my dusty OOTS books and also like Yellowfang’s SE lmao
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Oct 25, 2021 21:44:06 GMT -5
Ohhh man , This is thread is bringing back Memories of all the Flame wars that plagued the forums from 2011-2012 about these 3 , and is a Painful Reminder why all my OoTS Books have been doing nothing but Collect Dust on my bookshelf for the last 10 years . It’s Stated so many times in internal monologues that these care for each other so much, and that neither could bare the lose of losing the other , yet Rarely are these 2 not spatting with eachother , or on the Verge of tearing eachother apart . Constantly Blaming the other for there relationship falling apart , and neither willing to try to resolve there issues . I thinks it fair to Say that they were Both little shits as Paws , but at least for the most part Ivypools character has Matured and Developed , while Dovewings imo has practically remained Stagnant . Bruh help, my OOTS books were all on my Kindle that’s been dead and broken for years so now I can only access them on my laptop and even then it hurts to read them from the sheer lack of arc consistency. I’m holding on to them in Dear memory of Wayne mcloughlin and the Fact that there First Printings , so eventually they’ll have collectors Value .
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Oct 26, 2021 0:52:04 GMT -5
She wanted Ivypaw to eat the prey because she's worried about her. Right in the scene shows Ivypaw's just taunting her yet again out of spite and acting like a brat about it. Dovepaw cared about her safety in the scene you posted. She even says she doesn't want to fight her yet Ivypaw starts crap again. :/ I 100% agree with you. Dovepaw was just childish, sometimes selfish, and fell out ONE time. Ivypaw was mean, a bully, did things to spite her sister and taunted Dovepaw about everything just because she was jealous. I can see why Dovepaw gets more excuses about "she was young and naive".
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 5:22:18 GMT -5
She wanted Ivypaw to eat the prey because she's worried about her. Right in the scene shows Ivypaw's just taunting her yet again out of spite and acting like a brat about it. Dovepaw cared about her safety in the scene you posted. She even says she doesn't want to fight her yet Ivypaw starts crap again. :/ I 100% agree with you. Dovepaw was just childish, sometimes selfish, and fell out ONE time. Ivypaw was mean, a bully, did things to spite her sister and taunted Dovepaw about everything just because she was jealous. I can see why Dovepaw gets more excuses about "she was young and naive". It's exactly the reason why I'm less harsh on her. Was Dovewing selfish to others later on in the books? Well, yeah, and I don't think any fan can deny that, but, she's served her clan most of her life because of the prophecy and did her best to help her sister. She was never truly happy in ThunderClan, I just can't be entirely mad at her for picking ShadowClan. The only things I can find fault in what she's done was using Bumblestripe to move on from Tigerheart and forcing him to choose between him and her clan. Dovewing should've treated Bumblestripe nicer and explained why they broke up, but other than that, she really hasn't done anything wrong apart from those mistakes. She owes her clan and Ivypool nothing. Ivypool has treated her like crap most of her life and Dovewing's served her clan since the moment she was born. I just don't feel that sorry for Ivypool. She took out her anger and jealousy on Dovewing MULTIPLE times and then when she was tired of her seeing Tigerheart, she stopped talking to her completely instead of hearing her own sister out. She just assumed Dovewing wanted approval, which wasn't true. I can understand her worries about Dovewing's safety with Tigerheart, but honestly, Ivypool's really mean and too harsh on her. She never understood what Dovewing wanted until she had a litter of her own, and then stopped bothering her about Tigerheart. She never tried to understand her feelings and that was my problem with Ivypool. Dovewing always tried to understand her feelings. I just wish Ivypool did the same for her without cutting her off all the time.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 26, 2021 13:32:58 GMT -5
Just because you understand how someone feels doesn't mean you should approve of their actions. At the end of the day, fans aren't angry that Dovewing moved clans, they're mad at her method of how she went about it. Digging up and dragging out unnecessary drama, involving her entire clan in her ridiculous feats, and then forcing her own mate into an ultimatum while putting her unborn children in danger. She lied through her teeth for moons, but doesn't have the decency to at least be honest to her family and clanmates. She took an oath, broke the rules, then lied to everyone's face. She owed her clan an explanation especially after leading them on a wild goose chase having them worry sick for her safety while also wasting resources.
Dovewing has done plenty of idiotic things in her life on her own accord, from the moment she was an apprentice, and her character has remained stagnant since.
Also, Dovepaw really is no angel. If anything, imo she was worse, she was preaching about loyalty but ironically was sneaking out every night to see some shaggy tom. Then talks crap about her sister just because she calls her out for it.
Honestly, just an absolute yikes. Dovepaw knew about Ivypaw's insecurities and knows how the clan treats her, yet she wasted no time jabbing at that just because she didn't want to face the truth. Going as far as to accusing Ivy of even having feelings for Tiger too is just... so petty. This scene, and what she said, will just forever leave a sour taste in my mouth. "Ivy goaded her into it, she deserves it" yet...two wrongs don't make a right and as I pointed out already it was only after Dove tried to convince her sister to break the code.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 26, 2021 14:15:38 GMT -5
Now that I think about it...
In the first book, Ivypaw was upset because she and her sister promised to do everything together, but was jealous when Dovepaw constantly got attention and then later went on the beaver dam journey. However, later she's shown to be wary and admits to Dovepaw when she gets back that she thought she wouldn't miss her anymore. Dove and her made up, and then promised to each other again.
Then there's the situation where Dovepaw convinced Ivypaw to come with her to WindClan, breaking the code, and them both getting in trouble. Yet despite the punishment, Dovepaw was treated quite obviously differently from Ivypaw. The clan blatantly ignored her in favor of Dovepaw, and it got even worse because of Blossompaw just straight-up crap talks her and compares them. Even when Ivypaw first met Hawkfrost, she spoke quite highly of her sister, despite feeling isolated.
Ivypaw also planned to tell her sister about Hawkfrost (back when she still believed he was a StarClan cat) but her time with Dovepaw was constantly always cut in half because of the senior warriors always calling for her. When Ivypaw confronts her over the argument she was having with Lionblaze, this is where 1. She finds out that Dovepaw is lying to her about something, and 2. she reveals her jealousy and frustration, thinking that Dovepaw didn't care for her. So it's from this point on that she's indifferent to Dovepaw in general.
The first major argument they actually had was when Dovepaw confronted Ivypaw out of anger because she found out she was training in the DF through Jayfeather. But I doubt people will remember that. Quite literally the two of them only had two actual major arguments? This one, and later the one with Ivypaw biting back with knowing about Tigerheart after Dove went after her for being a DF cat. I'm not sure why people make it out to be more than it actually is, when it really isn't, at least went they were both apprentices.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 14:28:09 GMT -5
Just because you understand how someone feels doesn't mean you should approve of their actions. At the end of the day, fans aren't angry that Dovewing moved clans, they're mad at her method of how she went about it. Digging up and dragging out unnecessary drama, involving her entire clan in her ridiculous feats, and then forcing her own mate into an ultimatum while putting her unborn children in danger. She lied through her teeth for moons, but doesn't have the decency to at least be honest to her family and clanmates. She took an oath, broke the rules, then lied to everyone's face. She owed her clan an explanation especially after leading them on a wild goose chase having them worry sick for her safety while also wasting resources. Dovewing has done plenty of idiotic things in her life on her own accord, from the moment she was an apprentice, and her character has remained stagnant since. Also, Dovepaw really is no angel. If anything, imo she was worse, she was preaching about loyalty but ironically was sneaking out every night to see some shaggy tom. Then talks crap about her sister just because she calls her out for it. Like lol, I don't remember Ivypaw ever saying crap to this level to Dovepaw before: Honestly, just an absolute yikes. Dovepaw knew about Ivypaw's insecurities and knows how the clan treats her, yet she wasted no time jabbing at that just because she didn't want to face the truth. Going as far as to accusing Ivy of even having feelings for Tiger too is just... so petty. This scene, and what she said, will just forever leave a sour taste in my mouth. "Ivy goaded her into it, she deserves it" yet...two wrongs don't make a right and as I pointed out already it was only after Dove tried to convince her sister to break the code. We don't know for sure that's what Dovewing wanted back in TS. Like Cinder said, just because it's what Ivypool said, doesn't mean it's necessarily true. What if Dovewing just wanted someone to talk to about her fears? She was going through a lot of stress at the time, and it didn't exactly help that Darktail nearly destroyed the clans recently. I can't blame her for being scared for her safety and her kits. ShadowClan collapsed and didn't even exist for a while, SkyClan lost their home, and RiverClan closed their boarders and dropped all contact with the clans. EVERYONE was scared.It wasn't just Dovewing. She had a point when she said the clans were a mess at the time. If you're going to point out that Dovepaw wanted Ivypaw to break the code about the prey, she was doing it out of concern for her sister's health. Ivypaw made these actions just to spite her sister and get back at her because of her insecurities. I know Dovepaw was harsh, but I just can't feel sorry for Ivypaw. Nobody's saying Dovepaw's an angel either btw. But Ivypaw is NOT any more innocent than Dovepaw. She talked crap about her with Hawkfrost all the time, ignoring her because she was mad at her, and put a lot of pressure onto her and made the three worry because she wanted to be better than her. She has been mean to her the day she was jealous. Avoiding your sister, pressuring her and making her hear things she doesn't want to hear, getting mad at her over a misunderstanding, crap talking about her with Hawkfrost, blaming her for being in the Dark Forest, really aren't the nicest things to do with your own siblings. So really, Dovepaw saying that one mean thing once out pressure because Ivypaw didn't respect her is pretty forgivable imo. Especially since she felt bad for it and was willing to fix things between them right after. Ivypaw was bullying Dovepaw in that scene. She wouldn't respect Dovepaw and refused to stop telling her about Tigerheart, when it was CLEAR that she didn't want to hear it, and was under stress from it. When someone asks you to stop, you STOP. Ivypaw continued to put pressure onto her about the situation, and Dovepaw was only trying to help her see the truth about the Dark Forest. It's honestly mind boggling to me that you're on Dovepaw's case for making one mistake by yelling at her, because what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw was harrassment. There's a reason why people called Ivypaw a bully, because she acted like one. There's a reason why some people were pissed at her for this scene. And I cannot, and WILL not, feel sorry for Ivypaw for this scene, because she didn't even feel bad for her actions, her eyes were gleaming and she told Dovepaw to catch her prey, and had no ounce of self-reflection for putting her sister into that pressure about her boyfriend. It was WRONG.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Oct 26, 2021 14:58:44 GMT -5
Just because you understand how someone feels doesn't mean you should approve of their actions. At the end of the day, fans aren't angry that Dovewing moved clans, they're mad at her method of how she went about it. Digging up and dragging out unnecessary drama, involving her entire clan in her ridiculous feats, and then forcing her own mate into an ultimatum while putting her unborn children in danger. She lied through her teeth for moons, but doesn't have the decency to at least be honest to her family and clanmates. She took an oath, broke the rules, then lied to everyone's face. She owed her clan an explanation especially after leading them on a wild goose chase having them worry sick for her safety while also wasting resources. Dovewing has done plenty of idiotic things in her life on her own accord, from the moment she was an apprentice, and her character has remained stagnant since. Also, Dovepaw really is no angel. If anything, imo she was worse, she was preaching about loyalty but ironically was sneaking out every night to see some shaggy tom. Then talks crap about her sister just because she calls her out for it. Like lol, I don't remember Ivypaw ever saying crap to this level to Dovepaw before: Honestly, just an absolute yikes. Dovepaw knew about Ivypaw's insecurities and knows how the clan treats her, yet she wasted no time jabbing at that just because she didn't want to face the truth. Going as far as to accusing Ivy of even having feelings for Tiger too is just... so petty. This scene, and what she said, will just forever leave a sour taste in my mouth. "Ivy goaded her into it, she deserves it" yet...two wrongs don't make a right and as I pointed out already it was only after Dove tried to convince her sister to break the code. We don't know for sure that's what Dovewing wanted back in TS. Like Cinder said, just because it's what Ivypool said, doesn't mean it's necessarily true. What if Dovewing just wanted someone to talk to about her fears? She was going through a lot of stress at the time, and it didn't exactly help that Darktail nearly destroyed the clans recently. I can't blame her for being scared for her safety and her kits. ShadowClan collapsed and didn't even exist for a while, SkyClan lost their home, and RiverClan closed their boarders and dropped all contact with the clans. EVERYONE was scared.It wasn't just Dovewing. She had a point when she said the clans were a mess at the time. If you're going to point out that Dovepaw wanted Ivypaw to break the code about the prey, she was doing it out of concern for her sister's health. Ivypaw made these actions just to spite her sister and get back at her because of her insecurities. I know Dovepaw was harsh, but I just can't feel sorry for Ivypaw. Nobody's saying Dovepaw's an angel either btw. But Ivypaw is NOT any more innocent than Dovepaw. She talked crap about her with Hawkfrost all the time, ignoring her because she was mad at her, and put a lot of pressure onto her and made the three worry because she wanted to be better than her. She has been mean to her the day she was jealous. Avoiding your sister, pressuring her and making her hear things she doesn't want to hear, getting mad at her over a misunderstanding, crap talking about her with Hawkfrost, blaming her for being in the Dark Forest, really aren't the nicest things to do with your own siblings. So really, Dovepaw saying that one mean thing once out pressure because Ivypaw didn't respect her is pretty forgivable imo. Especially since she felt bad for it and was willing to fix things between them right after. Ivypaw was bullying Dovepaw in that scene. She wouldn't respect Dovepaw and refused to stop telling her about Tigerheart, when it was CLEAR that she didn't want to hear it, and was under stress from it. When someone asks you to stop, you STOP. Ivypaw continued to put pressure onto her about the situation, and Dovepaw was only trying to help her see the truth about the Dark Forest. It's honestly mind boggling to me that you're on Dovepaw's case for making one mistake by yelling at her, because what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw was harrassment. There's a reason why people called Ivypaw a bully, because she acted like one. There's a reason why some people were pissed at her for this scene. And I cannot, and WILL not, feel sorry for Ivypaw for this scene, because she didn't even feel bad for her actions, her eyes were gleaming and she told Dovepaw to catch her prey, and had no ounce of self-reflection for putting her sister into that pressure about her boyfriend. It was WRONG. Honestly, I wish I could explain things and voice my opinion as clearly as you, but I'm just extremely bad with words lol, so I'm gonna keep saying that I 100% agree with you :D
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 15:07:04 GMT -5
We don't know for sure that's what Dovewing wanted back in TS. Like Cinder said, just because it's what Ivypool said, doesn't mean it's necessarily true. What if Dovewing just wanted someone to talk to about her fears? She was going through a lot of stress at the time, and it didn't exactly help that Darktail nearly destroyed the clans recently. I can't blame her for being scared for her safety and her kits. ShadowClan collapsed and didn't even exist for a while, SkyClan lost their home, and RiverClan closed their boarders and dropped all contact with the clans. EVERYONE was scared.It wasn't just Dovewing. She had a point when she said the clans were a mess at the time. If you're going to point out that Dovepaw wanted Ivypaw to break the code about the prey, she was doing it out of concern for her sister's health. Ivypaw made these actions just to spite her sister and get back at her because of her insecurities. I know Dovepaw was harsh, but I just can't feel sorry for Ivypaw. Nobody's saying Dovepaw's an angel either btw. But Ivypaw is NOT any more innocent than Dovepaw. She talked crap about her with Hawkfrost all the time, ignoring her because she was mad at her, and put a lot of pressure onto her and made the three worry because she wanted to be better than her. She has been mean to her the day she was jealous. Avoiding your sister, pressuring her and making her hear things she doesn't want to hear, getting mad at her over a misunderstanding, crap talking about her with Hawkfrost, blaming her for being in the Dark Forest, really aren't the nicest things to do with your own siblings. So really, Dovepaw saying that one mean thing once out pressure because Ivypaw didn't respect her is pretty forgivable imo. Especially since she felt bad for it and was willing to fix things between them right after. Ivypaw was bullying Dovepaw in that scene. She wouldn't respect Dovepaw and refused to stop telling her about Tigerheart, when it was CLEAR that she didn't want to hear it, and was under stress from it. When someone asks you to stop, you STOP. Ivypaw continued to put pressure onto her about the situation, and Dovepaw was only trying to help her see the truth about the Dark Forest. It's honestly mind boggling to me that you're on Dovepaw's case for making one mistake by yelling at her, because what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw was harrassment. There's a reason why people called Ivypaw a bully, because she acted like one. There's a reason why some people were pissed at her for this scene. And I cannot, and WILL not, feel sorry for Ivypaw for this scene, because she didn't even feel bad for her actions, her eyes were gleaming and she told Dovepaw to catch her prey, and had no ounce of self-reflection for putting her sister into that pressure about her boyfriend. It was WRONG. Honestly, I wish I could explain things and voice my opinion as clearly as you, but I'm just extremely bad with words lol, so I'm gonna keep saying that I 100% agree with you I know I sound harsh, but I don't like her behavior. To me, from my perspective, Ivypaw's behavior was so much worse. Dovepaw was wrong for breaking the code and telling Ivypaw to do the same, but at least she had her reasons for it and had good intentions. The time she wanted to see Sedgewhisker? She was worried, and Ivypaw chose to follow her. The other time about telling Ivypaw to eat the prey? Again, she was concerned about her. The ONLY times I can't excuse her for breaking the code and lying to her clan, is about Tigerheart. Because most people are correct: She WAS selfish for lying to her clan, and she DID betray her Clanmates by making them believe she was dead, only to return to them, and leave them for ShadowClan. The way how she went about it was wrong, when Dovewing could have fessed up and just be honest with them and told ThunderClan she wanted to move with her new family. She was wrong to treat them the way she did, and she was cruel to Bumblestripe for using him. But everything else? She always had good intentions. She wanted to help Ivypool see the truth about the Dark Forest and constantly worried about her. Ivypool, in return, ignored her a lot, just because she was jealous. It's just petty behavior to me. I UNDERSTAND how she feels, but it doesn't make it right, and I can't feel sorry for Ivypool only because of all the crap she put herself through over a misunderstanding. Dovewing and Ivypool are both good cats. But Ivypool has ALWAYS been too harsh and misunderstood Dovewing's true intentions. They're both so bad at communicating and understanding each other. I really wish the writers worked on this between them, because this is probably all it would've taken if Ivypool and Dovewing sat down so much sooner and talked!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 26, 2021 17:36:37 GMT -5
I don't know, imo if feels like people demonize Ivypaw for feeling something as normal as jealousy, but the moment Dovepaw does something just as bad if not worse, her behavior is completely "understandable" or excused and minimized as much as possible. Even more so considering Ivypaw's jealousy quite literally only lasted like 2 books? And was quite a minimal part of her character going forward, compared to Dovepaw who never grew out of her habits.
Also, how is what Ivypaw did to Dovepaw considered harassment when Dovepaw was the one goading at her sister in the first place? Out of concern or not, if she had to tell her to back off twice, that's literally on Dovepaw. Dovepaw was the one that started both of those arguments, the one where she confronted her over Hawkfrost, and then later when she tried to convince her to break the code. While also sitting in denial about Tigerheart and behaving like a naive hypocrite. Dovepaw wasn't some pushover as an apprentice either, and very much was shown to be quite snappish sometimes (which is again, something she never grew out of).
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 18:04:08 GMT -5
I don't know, imo if feels like people demonize Ivypaw for feeling something as normal as jealousy, but the moment Dovepaw does something just as bad if not worse, her behavior is completely "understandable" or excused and minimized as much as possible. Even more so considering Ivypaw's jealousy quite literally only lasted like 2 books? And was quite a minimal part of her character going forward, compared to Dovepaw who never grew out of her habits. Also, how is what Ivypaw did to Dovepaw considered harassment when Dovepaw was the one goading at her sister in the first place? Out of concern or not, if she had to tell her to back off twice, that's literally on Dovepaw. Dovepaw was the one that started both of those arguments, the one where she confronted her over Hawkfrost, and then later when she tried to convince her to break the code. While also sitting in denial about Tigerheart and behaving like a naive hypocrite. Dovepaw wasn't some pushover as an apprentice either, and very much was shown to be quite snappish sometimes (which is again, something she never grew out of). Tbf, I could say the same thing about you demonizing Dovepaw when to me, her actions really aren't that bad. Just like how you feel Ivypaw's own actions aren't too bad, but they are to me. Putting a lot of pressure onto her like that just feels wrong to me. I didn't grow up with a sibling I needed to feel jealous over, so ig I don't relate to Ivypaw's crappy behavior. I'm more sympathetic with Dovepaw's feelings about pressure cause I've gone through situations that stresses me out, and saying things that I don't mean out of pressure or stress. Literally continuing to do something that someone asks you to stop is harrassment. I don't know how else to explain it, and that's exactly what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw. Her crap really shouldn't be justified just because she was jealous. Dovepaw may not have handled things right with Ivypaw either, but she didn't purposely try to act like an asshole like Ivypaw did. There's a reason why I side with a character over the other. Ivypaw did this crap on purpose. Through my eyes, she's a bully because of it; I don't care or sympathize with her insecurities for treating other people like shit for it. Dovepaw didn't mean what she said, and felt guilty afterwords. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I'm just kind of surprised you don't see Ivypaws behavior as harrassment, when clearly, she did this out of spite, she had no good intentions whatsoever, and didn't listen to Dovepaw, when she was showing with her own body language and words that she was stressed out about it and didn't want to hear it anymore. Worst part is Ivypaw didn't even feel guilty for it and kept avoiding her like an asshole. THAT'S why I'm harder on ivypaw about her behavior on this.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 26, 2021 18:20:41 GMT -5
I don't know, imo if feels like people demonize Ivypaw for feeling something as normal as jealousy, but the moment Dovepaw does something just as bad if not worse, her behavior is completely "understandable" or excused and minimized as much as possible. Even more so considering Ivypaw's jealousy quite literally only lasted like 2 books? And was quite a minimal part of her character going forward, compared to Dovepaw who never grew out of her habits. Also, how is what Ivypaw did to Dovepaw considered harassment when Dovepaw was the one goading at her sister in the first place? Out of concern or not, if she had to tell her to back off twice, that's literally on Dovepaw. Dovepaw was the one that started both of those arguments, the one where she confronted her over Hawkfrost, and then later when she tried to convince her to break the code. While also sitting in denial about Tigerheart and behaving like a naive hypocrite. Dovepaw wasn't some pushover as an apprentice either, and very much was shown to be quite snappish sometimes (which is again, something she never grew out of). Tbf, I could say the same thing about you demonizing Dovepaw when to me, her actions really aren't that bad. Just like how you feel Ivypaw's own actions aren't too bad, but they are to me. Putting a lot of pressure onto her like that just feels wrong to me. I didn't grow up with a sibling I needed to feel jealous over, so ig I don't relate to Ivypaw's crappy behavior. I'm more sympathetic with Dovepaw's feelings about pressure cause I've gone through situations that stresses me out, and saying things that I don't mean out of pressure or stress. Literally continuing to do something that someone asks you to stop is harrassment. I don't know how else to explain it, and that's exactly what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw. Her crap really shouldn't be justified just because she was jealous. Dovepaw may not have handled things right with Ivypaw either, but she didn't purposely try to act like an asshole like Ivypaw did. There's a reason why I side with a character over the other. Ivypaw did this crap on purpose. Through my eyes, she's a bully because of it; I don't care or sympathize with her insecurities for treating other people like shit for it. Dovepaw didn't mean what she said, and felt guilty afterwords. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I'm just kind of surprised you don't see Ivypaws behavior as harrassment, when clearly, she did this out of spite, she had no good intentions whatsoever, and didn't listen to Dovepaw, when she was showing with her own body language and words that she was stressed out about it and didn't want to hear it anymore. Worst part is Ivypaw didn't even feel guilty for it and kept avoiding her like an asshole. THAT'S why I'm harder on ivypaw about her behavior on this. I'd hardly see what Ivypaw was doing to Dovepaw being considered "bullying". They're siblings, siblings argue, siblings can have disagreements and even ignore each other for a while. It's quite literally normal and not unheard of. Siblings can also feel jealous of each other, or neglected, and isolated from one another too. Is it healthy? No. But does it normally happen? Yes. Because no relationship is perfect. Stress doesn't excuse behavior, if Ivypaw doesn't get a pass then neither should Dovepaw. Bullying is what Shrewpaw did to Tallpaw, going out of his way to physically, emotionally and verbally attack Tallpaw even before they were apprentices, and even more so after. That wasn't them just having spats, or boys being boys, Shrewpaw quite literally wanted Tallpaw dead for a while, and blamed him for his mother's death. Ivypool may have been jealous of Dovepaw, but she never once maliciously thought that Dovepaw should be dead, gone, or out of the way. Nor has she repeatedly "bullied" Dovepaw like you're claiming. If you see it that way, you're free to do so, but by your logic that means Dovepaw bullied Ivypaw, or tried to pressure Ivypaw into doing things she didn't want to do. Or Dovepaw is manipulative for pressuring her sister into breaking the code, or for getting her to become a spy, etc. It's quite nonsensical to claim either way imo. At the end of the day, both sisters weren't perfect. But even with that in consideration, Ivypaw was manipulated into joining the Dark Forest, while Dovepaw was knowingly aware she was breaking the code by seeing Tigerheart. She also was doing it of her own free will, something Ivypaw didn't have the luxury of. And even AFTER the whole kidnapping situation she still crawled back to him, hence why I tend to criticize Dovepaw more than Ivypaw. Is it now suddenly Ivypaw's fault as well that Dovepaw doesn't know how to be loyal to her clan? Or that Dovepaw doesn't know how to practice what she preaches? Like I've said before, Dovewing doesn't need Ivypool to show how poorly she's written. There's plenty of other things about Dovewing that can be criticized about her character outside of Ivypool.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 18:30:07 GMT -5
Tbf, I could say the same thing about you demonizing Dovepaw when to me, her actions really aren't that bad. Just like how you feel Ivypaw's own actions aren't too bad, but they are to me. Putting a lot of pressure onto her like that just feels wrong to me. I didn't grow up with a sibling I needed to feel jealous over, so ig I don't relate to Ivypaw's crappy behavior. I'm more sympathetic with Dovepaw's feelings about pressure cause I've gone through situations that stresses me out, and saying things that I don't mean out of pressure or stress. Literally continuing to do something that someone asks you to stop is harrassment. I don't know how else to explain it, and that's exactly what Ivypaw has done to Dovepaw. Her crap really shouldn't be justified just because she was jealous. Dovepaw may not have handled things right with Ivypaw either, but she didn't purposely try to act like an asshole like Ivypaw did. There's a reason why I side with a character over the other. Ivypaw did this crap on purpose. Through my eyes, she's a bully because of it; I don't care or sympathize with her insecurities for treating other people like shit for it. Dovepaw didn't mean what she said, and felt guilty afterwords. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I'm just kind of surprised you don't see Ivypaws behavior as harrassment, when clearly, she did this out of spite, she had no good intentions whatsoever, and didn't listen to Dovepaw, when she was showing with her own body language and words that she was stressed out about it and didn't want to hear it anymore. Worst part is Ivypaw didn't even feel guilty for it and kept avoiding her like an asshole. THAT'S why I'm harder on ivypaw about her behavior on this. I'd hardly see what Ivypaw was doing to Dovepaw being considered "bullying". They're siblings, siblings argue, siblings can have disagreements and even ignore each other for a while. It's quite literally normal and not unheard of. Siblings can also feel jealous of each other, or neglected, and isolated from one another too. Bullying is what Shrewpaw did to Tallpaw, going out of his way to physically, emotionally and verbally attack Tallpaw even before they were apprentices, and even more so after. That wasn't them just having spats, or boys being boys, Shrewpaw quite literally wanted Tallpaw dead for a while, and blamed him for his mother's death. Ivypool may have been jealous of Dovepaw, but she never once maliciously thought that Dovepaw should be dead, gone, or out of the way. Nor has she repeatedly "bullied" Dovepaw like you're claiming. If you see it that way, you're free to do so, but by your logic that means Dovepaw bullied Ivypaw, or tried to pressure Ivypaw into doing things she didn't want to do. Or Dovepaw is manipulative for pressuring her sister into breaking the code, or becoming a spy, etc. It's quite nonsensical to claim either one imo. At the end of the day, both sisters weren't perfect. But even with that in consideration, Ivypaw was manipulated into joining the Dark Forest, while Dovepaw was knowingly aware she was breaking the code by seeing Tigerheart. She also was doing it of her own free will, something Ivypaw didn't have the luxury of. And even AFTER the whole kidnapping situation she still crawled back to him, hence why I tend to criticize Dovepaw more than Ivypaw. Is it now suddenly Ivypaw's fault as well that Dovepaw doesn't know how to be loyal to her clan? Or that Dovepaw doesn't know how to practice what she preaches? Bullying is also continuing to do something when someone asks you to stop. It isn't JUST hurting people out of enjoyment. Trust me, I know exactly what bullying is like. I've experienced it half of my life with people bullying me and my friends. We've had this discussion at my job and all of us agreed that's also what harrassment is. I'm honestly actually surprised you don't see this as harrassment. Do you honestly think it's okay and really not see this as bullying when someone will keep doing something even when they clearly show their body language and their words to stop? You seem to have also forgotten that Ivypaw has done something similar as Shrewpaw did: she blamed Dovepaw for being there in the Dark Forest, seething and yelling at her for it. When they talked in that scene in NW, Dovepaw was genuinely confused and couldn't understand why Ivypaw felt the way she did. Ivypool literally admitted in one of TBC books with Bristlefrost that she had very dark thoughts about Dovewing when she was in the Dark Forest and taught her daughter how to reach there. That clearly means she had awful thoughts about Dovewing back in OotS. She really isn't any better than Shrewclaw. Fine. Dovepaw bullied Ivypaw too. But understand that Ivypaw's behavior IS also considered as harrassment, if you're going to say that Dovepaw's behavior is harrassment as well. I'm aware, and have been aware, that she did a bad thing to her. I just sympathize with her more because she was actually sorry for it, while Ivypaw wasn't, continued to be in the Dark Forest because she wanted to be better than her sister. She didn't learn how stupid she was being until she found out Tigerstar was using her.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 26, 2021 18:32:06 GMT -5
I'm done debating. Agree to disagree.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Oct 27, 2021 0:20:34 GMT -5
I don't know, imo if feels like people demonize Ivypaw for feeling something as normal as jealousy, but the moment Dovepaw does something just as bad if not worse, her behavior is completely "understandable" or excused and minimized as much as possible. Even more so considering Ivypaw's jealousy quite literally only lasted like 2 books? And was quite a minimal part of her character going forward, compared to Dovepaw who never grew out of her habits. Also, how is what Ivypaw did to Dovepaw considered harassment when Dovepaw was the one goading at her sister in the first place? Out of concern or not, if she had to tell her to back off twice, that's literally on Dovepaw. Dovepaw was the one that started both of those arguments, the one where she confronted her over Hawkfrost, and then later when she tried to convince her to break the code. While also sitting in denial about Tigerheart and behaving like a naive hypocrite. Dovepaw wasn't some pushover as an apprentice either, and very much was shown to be quite snappish sometimes (which is again, something she never grew out of). Jealously is not a reason to bully and taunt the person you're jealous of lol.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 27, 2021 1:18:15 GMT -5
I don't know, imo if feels like people demonize Ivypaw for feeling something as normal as jealousy, but the moment Dovepaw does something just as bad if not worse, her behavior is completely "understandable" or excused and minimized as much as possible. Even more so considering Ivypaw's jealousy quite literally only lasted like 2 books? And was quite a minimal part of her character going forward, compared to Dovepaw who never grew out of her habits. Also, how is what Ivypaw did to Dovepaw considered harassment when Dovepaw was the one goading at her sister in the first place? Out of concern or not, if she had to tell her to back off twice, that's literally on Dovepaw. Dovepaw was the one that started both of those arguments, the one where she confronted her over Hawkfrost, and then later when she tried to convince her to break the code. While also sitting in denial about Tigerheart and behaving like a naive hypocrite. Dovepaw wasn't some pushover as an apprentice either, and very much was shown to be quite snappish sometimes (which is again, something she never grew out of). Jealously is not a reason to bully and taunt the person you're jealous of lol. And having good intentions doesn't justify trying to convince others to break the law, lol.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 27, 2021 1:23:22 GMT -5
I'd hardly see what Ivypaw was doing to Dovepaw being considered "bullying". They're siblings, siblings argue, siblings can have disagreements and even ignore each other for a while. It's quite literally normal and not unheard of. Siblings can also feel jealous of each other, or neglected, and isolated from one another too. Bullying is what Shrewpaw did to Tallpaw, going out of his way to physically, emotionally and verbally attack Tallpaw even before they were apprentices, and even more so after. That wasn't them just having spats, or boys being boys, Shrewpaw quite literally wanted Tallpaw dead for a while, and blamed him for his mother's death. Ivypool may have been jealous of Dovepaw, but she never once maliciously thought that Dovepaw should be dead, gone, or out of the way. Nor has she repeatedly "bullied" Dovepaw like you're claiming. If you see it that way, you're free to do so, but by your logic that means Dovepaw bullied Ivypaw, or tried to pressure Ivypaw into doing things she didn't want to do. Or Dovepaw is manipulative for pressuring her sister into breaking the code, or becoming a spy, etc. It's quite nonsensical to claim either one imo. At the end of the day, both sisters weren't perfect. But even with that in consideration, Ivypaw was manipulated into joining the Dark Forest, while Dovepaw was knowingly aware she was breaking the code by seeing Tigerheart. She also was doing it of her own free will, something Ivypaw didn't have the luxury of. And even AFTER the whole kidnapping situation she still crawled back to him, hence why I tend to criticize Dovepaw more than Ivypaw. Is it now suddenly Ivypaw's fault as well that Dovepaw doesn't know how to be loyal to her clan? Or that Dovepaw doesn't know how to practice what she preaches? Bullying is also continuing to do something when someone asks you to stop. It isn't JUST hurting people out of enjoyment. Trust me, I know exactly what bullying is like. I've experienced it half of my life with people bullying me and my friends. We've had this discussion at my job and all of us agreed that's also what harrassment is. I'm honestly actually surprised you don't see this as harrassment. Do you honestly think it's okay and really not see this as bullying when someone will keep doing something even when they clearly show their body language and their words to stop? You seem to have also forgotten that Ivypaw has done something similar as Shrewpaw did: she blamed Dovepaw for being there in the Dark Forest, seething and yelling at her for it. When they talked in that scene in NW, Dovepaw was genuinely confused and couldn't understand why Ivypaw felt the way she did. Ivypool literally admitted in one of TBC books with Bristlefrost that she had very dark thoughts about Dovewing when she was in the Dark Forest and taught her daughter how to reach there. That clearly means she had awful thoughts about Dovewing back in OotS. She really isn't any better than Shrewclaw. Fine. Dovepaw bullied Ivypaw too. But understand that Ivypaw's behavior IS also considered as harrassment, if you're going to say that Dovepaw's behavior is harrassment as well. I'm aware, and have been aware, that she did a bad thing to her. I just sympathize with her more because she was actually sorry for it, while Ivypaw wasn't, continued to be in the Dark Forest because she wanted to be better than her sister. She didn't learn how stupid she was being until she found out Tigerstar was using her. I disagree. I think it's ridiculous to put Shrewclaw and Ivypaw on the same level, but you're free to your own opinion. I don't and never will see Ivypaw's behavior as "bullying" or "harassment" and trust me I personally know both of those very well, so yes I think it's perfectly okay not to see either that way from my perspective. Also no where in the books does it say that Ivypool had malicious intents toward Dovewing and that's how she got into the Dark Forest, lol. But anyways, case and point, you can't claim one is harassment while excusing the other, it's nonsensical imo. I still personally think that Dovepaw truly was the worse of the two though, but if you want to agree to disagree that's fine.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 27, 2021 9:46:52 GMT -5
Was Ivypool too harsh on Dovewing and Tigerheart?
On Dovepaw/wing? That's debatable (and has been debated on this thread so I will not reignite the discussion). But on Tigerheart? Never! He deserves to get called out (all day every day).
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Post by Aqua on Oct 27, 2021 13:37:52 GMT -5
Was Ivypool too harsh on Dovewing and Tigerheart? On Dovepaw/wing? That's debatable (and has been debated on this thread so I will not reignite the discussion). But on Tigerheart? Never! He deserves to get called out (all day every day). Ivypool was harsh to me about Dovewing and I'm just gonna leave it at that. However I do agree that Tigerheart 100% deserved the clawing and scolding. It was harsh, but since he used Dovewing for catmint, wouldn't allow her to move on, and allowed her to go off while she was pregnant with his own unborn kits, I can't really blame her for being that pissed at him. Tigerheart's trash and honestly he doesn't deserve Dovewing or his kits after how he treated Dovewing and his own Clanmates for abandoning them because his responsibilities were "too hard" for him. Dovewing sacrificed everything for him and even after she apologized and told him how much she loved him, he STILL tried to make her choose between her and her own clan, and always felt bitter every time she tried to move on yet he does the same to her and constantly picked his clan over her lmao. He's an ass. Dovewing cares for Tigerheart so much and she shows it. Tigerheart has shown Dovewing multiple times that he cares for his clan more than her. He really should've just left her alone to be with ThunderClan and allowed her to move on when she tried to before AVoS.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Oct 27, 2021 21:17:41 GMT -5
Hmmm , has gotten quite Heated in here . And I Feel Quite compelled to take a chunk of the pie , and reiterate just How Disgusting of a character Dovewing is .
While Ivypaw certainly is no Sweetheart in the Situation , and has Jealousy Issues , which are perfectly understandable .
From the Beginning Dovepaw has been Figuratively Risen up onto a Pedestal, and Given Special Treatment and attention by the Senior Warriors , and Peers . All while Ivypaw is Struggling with being Bullied and the insecurity of Feeling unimportant , and Quite clearly Inferior to her Sister , and Dovepaw being chosen as the Only apprentice to go on the Quest to discover the Beaver dam , and save the clans from Drought only further reinforces her sense of inferiority , and with them not spending much time training together with Dovepaw receiving Special Training for reasons unbeknownst to Ivypaw . So it’s understandable that Ivypaw is feeling dejected and neglected , and starts becoming jealous of Dovepaw . Though she confides with Dovepaw about her concerns at the end TFA , and they renew there promise with eachother , clearly these promises have very little meaning to Dovepaw in the next book .
As Not only Does Dovepaw start Secretly sneaking out to see Tigerheart . She Persuades Ivypaw to break the Code by accompanying her to the Windclan Camp , getting them Both in Trouble , though Ivypaw is treated notably worse for the crime, and this is we’re Ivypaw’s jealousy becomes much more evident cause of blatant Favoritism towards Dovepaw from her Clanmates .
Now this is we’re Dovewing becomes the Hypocritical Abomination in disguise she truly is .
While Dovewing has no Trouble Criticizing Ivypaw about her stupidity for training with DF Cats , and Breaking the Code . While she herself has no problems walking all over it herself like the rules don’t apply to her .
And then Later Attempts to persuade Ivypaw to break the Code twice , both times Ivypaw Refuses , only afterwards does she bring up Tigerheart , and let her Jealousy control her emotions , and start Badgering Dovepaw for her transgressions , while ivypaw may have been Harsh , she was provoked by dovepaw . And dovepaw not Only refuses to acknowledge that she’s doing anything wrong by seeing Tigerheart , or listen to Ivypaw cause she simply doesn’t want to hear it . she decides to intentionally ,and Maliciously Degrade her Sister by knowingly attacking her Weakness/insecurities by telling her that she’s Just being Jealous , and that no One Loves her , and that no one Ever will , and that’s She is Basically a worthless Screw-up . Which Crosses so many F-ING Lines that should never be Crossed . ivypaws Taunting my have been Mean , but just to Freely Attack your own Sibling on an Emotional/psychological/Mental Level , Exploiting There Weakest Point to Degrade them out of Spite ,is Just Beyond Contempt , And is absolutely inexcusable , and Very abusive .
No Wonder Ivypaw Wanted very little to Do with Dovepaw afterwards . Cause dovepaws Actions are so Damn near unforgivable , it would Take months of Painstaking Apologizing and Making up on Dovepaws Part to come even close to rectifying her actions , cause there downright Vile . No simple “ whoopsie , I’m Sorry , please forgive me” is Gonna Solve that one .
And yes, We can Argue that she still Cared for Ivypaw, and that she tried to understand her Feelings .
But since this is only Reflected in Internal Monologue I beg to differ , cause as the Saying Goes “actions speak louder then Words .
And since unspoken words have zero merit/value I find it extraordinarily Difficult to validate/rationalize those claims .
And with there Relationship being fairly easily mended , and all Grievances being almost seamlessly set aside , after Dovepaw reveals the secret about the prophecy , and her powers , begs the question, why didn’t she tell Ivypaw sooner ? Would of saved them a tremendous amount of heartache, right ?. Yes , we can argue the fact that she was told to keep them secret , but given her History of Flip-flopping And Bending rules to meet her own demands , she shouldn’t have any problem telling her Sister about her powers . Since she knows the lies are putting a bunch of Strain on there relationship , should just be a small Hurdle , no biggie , she breaks rules all the time .
But apparently she can only do it for Shady Toms like Tigerheart .
any insinuations that Dovepaw Cares for Ivypaw , is so superficial and disingenuous as she Repeatedly makes Foolish decisions , constantly choosing her shitty relationship with Tigerheart over her Kin, her Clan , and Abolishes the Oath that she swore to uphold .
In conclusion , both Ivypaw and Dovepaws Behavior was Bad , but Dovepaws is much worse IMO.
And while Ivypaw has developed , and matured as a character , learning from her mistakes and growing out of her Jerk stage .
Dovepaws Character remains stagnated. she never matured , or Grows , or learns from her mistakes .. she repeatedly makes horrible decisions , and complains that no one understands why she’s breaking the code , and gets frustrated that everyone doesn’t accommodate her . Which is the equivalent of your Boss catching you stealing from work , suspending you for 2 weeks , then telling you if he catches you again your Fired , for you to respond “but you don’t understand , it’s so unfair , I had good intentions”.
2 Wrongs never make a right , and no amount of Good intentions will ever Justify lawbreaking .
And no matter how Stressed out or angry you are . It will never justify Abuse , no Matter how Much Sugar you try to coat it with .
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 27, 2021 21:30:51 GMT -5
Hmmm , has gotten quite Heated in here . And I Feel Quite compelled to take a chunk of the pie , and reiterate just How Disgusting of a character Dovewing is . While Ivypaw certainly is no Sweetheart in the Situation , and has Jealousy Issues , which are perfectly understandable . From the Beginning Dovepaw has been Figuratively Risen up onto a Pedestal, and Given Special Treatment and attention by the Senior Warriors , and Peers . All while Ivypaw is Struggling with being Bullied and the insecurity of Feeling unimportant , and Quite clearly Inferior to her Sister , and Dovepaw being chosen as the Only apprentice to go on the Quest to discover the Beaver dam , and save the clans from Drought only further reinforces her sense of inferiority , and with them not spending much time training together with Dovepaw receiving Special Training for reasons unbeknownst to Ivypaw . So it’s understandable that Ivypaw is feeling dejected and neglected , and starts becoming jealous of Dovepaw . Though she confides with Dovepaw about her concerns at the end TFA , and they renew there promise with eachother , clearly these promises have very little meaning to Dovepaw in the next book . As Not only Does Dovepaw start Secretly sneaking out to see Tigerheart . She Persuades Ivypaw to break the Code by accompanying her to the Windclan Camp , getting them Both in Trouble , though Ivypaw is treated notably worse for the crime, and this is we’re Ivypaw’s jealousy becomes much more evident cause of blatant Favoritism towards Dovepaw from her Clanmates . Now this is we’re Dovewing becomes the Hypocritical Abomination in disguise she truly is . While Dovewing has no Trouble Criticizing Ivypaw about her stupidity for training with DF Cats , and Breaking the Code . While she herself has no problems walking all over it herself like the rules don’t apply to her . And then Later Attempts to persuade Ivypaw to break the Code twice , both times Ivypaw Refuses , only afterwards does she bring up Tigerheart , and let her Jealousy control her emotions , and start Badgering Dovepaw for her transgressions , while ivypaw may have been Harsh , she was provoked by dovepaw . And dovepaw not Only refuses to acknowledge that she’s doing anything wrong by seeing Tigerheart , or listen to Ivypaw cause she simply doesn’t want to her it . she decides to intentionally ,and Maliciously Degrade her Sister by knowingly attacking her Weakness/insecurities by telling her that she’s Just being Jealous , and that no One Loves her , and that no one Ever will , and that’s She is Basically a worthless Screw-up . Which Crosses so many F-ING Lines that should never be Crossed . ivypaws Taunting my have been Mean , but just to Freely Attack your own Sibling on an Emotional/psychological/Mental Level , Exploiting There Weakest Point is Just Beyond Contempt , And is absolutely inexcusable , and Very abusive . No Wonder Ivypaw Wanted very little to Do with Dovepaw afterwards . Cause dovepaws Actions are so Damn near unforgivable , it would Take months of Painstaking Apologizing and Making up on the Dovepaws Part to come even close to rectifying her actions , cause there downright Vile . No simple “ whoopsie , I’m Sorry , please forgive me” is Gonna Solve that one . And yes, We can Argue that she still Cared for Ivypaw, and that she tried to understand her Feelings . But since this is only Reflected in Internal Monologue I beg to differ , cause as the Saying Goes “actions speak louder then Words . And since unspoken words have zero merit/value I find it extraordinarily Difficult to validate/rationalize those claims . And with there Relationship being fairly easily mended , and all Grievances being almost seamlessly set aside , after Dovepaw reveals the secret about the prophecy , and her powers , begs the question, why didn’t she tell Ivypaw sooner ? Would of saved them a tremendous amount of heartache, right ?. Yes , we can argue the fact that she was told to keep them secret , but given here History of Flip-flopping And Bending rules to meet her own demands , she shouldn’t have any problem telling her Sister about her powers . Since she knows the lies are putting a bunch Strain on there relationship , should just be a small Hurdle , no biggie , she breaks rules all the time . But apparently she can only do it for Shady Toms like Tigerheart . any insinuations that Dovepaw Cares for Ivypaw , is so superficial and disingenuous as she Repeatedly makes Foolish decisions , constantly choosing her shitty relationship with Tigerheart over her Kin, her Clan , and Abolishes the Oath that she swore to uphold . In conclusion , both Ivypaw and Dovepaws Behavior was Bad , but Dovepaws is much worse IMO. And while Ivypaw has developed , and matured as a character , learning from her mistakes and growing out of her Jerk stage . Dovepaws Character remains stagnated. she never matured , or Grows , or learns from her mistakes .. she repeatedly makes horrible decisions , and complains that no one understands why she’s breaking the code , and gets frustrated that everyone doesn’t accommodate her . Which is the equivalent of your Boss catching you stealing from work , suspending you for 2 weeks , then telling you if he catches you again your Fired , for you to respond “but you don’t understand , it’s so unfair , I had good intentions”. 2 Wrongs never make a right , and no amount of Good intentions will ever Justify lawbreaking . And no matter how Stressed out or angry you are . It will never justify Abuse , no Matter how Much Sugar you try to coat it with . hmm ur reply is interesting. i agree with a lot of it, but i wanna ask for ur perspective on this. i dont get why dovewing likes tigerheart or thinks that being with him makes her feel normal? it makes no sense. tigerheart knew about her powers, right? didnt he call her cool and stuff when they began meeting? then how does that make her feel "normal" or "more relaxed" ? it doesnt make sense to me. but if im misremembering, anyone on this thread, feel free to correct me. she even thought the same about bumblestripe during their night walk date under the flowers or whatever. being with BUMBLE made her feel normal and he didnt know about her powers like tigerheart...so like why?
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Oct 28, 2021 0:19:21 GMT -5
Wishing well said br] hmm ur reply is interesting. i agree with a lot of it, but i wanna ask for ur perspective on this. i dont get why dovewing likes tigerheart or thinks that being with him makes her feel normal? it makes no sense. tigerheart knew about her powers, right? didnt he call her cool and stuff when they began meeting? then how does that make her feel "normal" or "more relaxed" ? it doesnt make sense to me. but if im misremembering, anyone on this thread, feel free to correct me. she even thought the same about bumblestripe during their night walk date under the flowers or whatever. being with BUMBLE made her feel normal and he didnt know about her powers like tigerheart...so like why?
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“sigh” all these discussions on Tigerheart and Dovewing are exhausting. I don’t remember if Dovewing told Tigerheart about her powers or not . I haven’t read the books to OoTS since like less then a Month after they first released . Dovewings and Tigerhearts “relationship” is such a Befuddled Clusterstorm of worms that I can’t even begin to Untangle. But I’ll attempt to give you my Perspective .
Part of it probably comes from the Adrenaline Rush of there “relationship” being forbidden .and there Shared Enthusiasm for Breaking Rules , Being Rebellious etc .
Plus because he’s from outside of Thunderclan , she could use him for Distancing herself from all her Responsibilities, Obligations , extra Training for Honing her extraordinary sense of hearing . And Basically everything else she internalized was Ruining her life , and making her unable to live life normally .
And perhaps with his Carefree , irresponsible Nature she viewed him as a Escapism of sorts from the Prophecy , and a escape Route from her Destiny in a way . Perhaps she Garnished some Sadistic Satisfaction, and Gratification from being Defiant against starclan for chosing her , perhaps she felt breaking the code was striking a blow against starclan out of Spite , since she clearly wanted nothing to do with the prophecy from the beginning she was told by lionblaze and Jayfeather in TFA .
And if she did tell Tigerheart about her powers , that drives my point . if she’s willing to break her promise by telling Tigerheart about her powers , then why didn’t she tell Ivypaw sooner ? When she knew it was Creating a Wedge between them ? It makes no Sense , I can’t rationalize or come up with any reason for her not too , if she cares as deeply for her sister as it is implied . Whatever her reasoning I guarantee it’s petty .
Once TBC has concluded on November 9th , and I finish my first read through DoTC , and get through tigerhearts shadow which I’m over halfway through , I’m gonna reread OoTS and I’ll see if my opinion Changes . Then I’ll either continue Leopardstars honor , or read moth flights vision next , and see what horrifying contradictions that make to her character from what we saw of her in the little history story we got in Secrets of the Clans .
My original response was worded a little differently , but the server crashed and I lost it. But I rewrote everything pretty well I think
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Post by lionblazex on Oct 28, 2021 2:45:20 GMT -5
Dovewing didn't tell Tigerheart about her powers actually from what I remember. Tigerheart finds out about her powers because he sneaks into a secret meeting between the three and the clans leaders were the three revel each of their powers and the threat of the DF to the other Clans(this where Dovewing listens to the DF). Tigerheart confronts after the meeting and tells her he thinks her powers are cool and Dovewing breaks up with him for the second time because she didn't like that.
As for why she started to like him in the first place. Its because after she broke the code to go check on Sedgewhisker in WindClan durring FE she was really upset Sedgewhisker got mad and didn't understand why clan borders got in the way of the friendships she made with the cats from the journey in TFA. Later she sees Tigerheart at the border and he claims to share her views on the matter and basically told everything she wanted to here and her attachment to him started from that. Though she did also before that warm up to him on the journey in TFA prior too I suppose. At first she found him annoying though.
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