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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 26, 2021 10:42:07 GMT -5
What are your opinions on this guy? Honestly i really like him, and i feel like he was a genuinely nice guy who wanted to do what was best for his Clan. He honestly cared a lot for his Clanmates, and he's shown to have a nice sense of humour: "It helps if I remember that I'm more use to my Clan where I am now. Every cat has the potential to be a warrior, but only a few of us can be medicine cats." -Yellowfang's Secret, page 336 "He wondered if Hawkheart was mellowing now that gray whiskers were showing on his muzzle. But he suspected it was Hopkit's warmth that had thawed the stern, old medicine cat."-Tallstar's Revenge, page 484
"Then there's Hawkheart of WindClan. He can sound gruff, but he's a good cat."-Yellowfang's Secret, page 363 "Palebird had told him to stay away from the gray-brown tom; he had little patience for kits."-Tallstar's Revenge, page 7 "Hawkheart?" Hopkit rolled lazily over. "If Heatherstar says I can't become a warrior, do you think I could become a medicine cat?"
"No." Hawkheart sat up. "You're too fidgety." He gazed across the clearing to where Barkface was making sure that Dawnstripe's battle wounds had properly healed. "Besides, WindClan doesn't need another medicine cat."
Hopkit held up a paw. Although the infection had gone. his foot was limp and flat, and he had no feeling in it. "But how can I be a warrior with this?"
"You can walk on it, can't you?" Hawkheart wasn't giving a drop of sympathy.
"I can limp."
Hawkheart snorted. "If you can limp, you can walk. If you can walk, you can hunt."
"What about fighting?" Hopkit persisted. "What if I can't fight?"
"Then you'll just have to argue your enemies to death." Hawkheart settled onto his side and half closed his eyes. "You're great at arguing."
"No, I'm not."-Tallstar's Revenge, pages 483-484 Also, in the debates with Moonflower, i see his attack as pretty much justified. Moonflower was literally indirectly going to cause a lot of deaths. Destroying the herb supply would prevent cats from being healed and they would die because of this battle; once leaf-bare came around, (the attack was in leaf-fall, almost leaf-bare) he wouldn't be able to cure cats from greencough and sicknesses, and a lot of cats would die. So it makes sense that Hawkheart resorts to killing her, as it's even stated in the warrior code: "An honorable warrior does not need to kill other cats to win their battles, unless they are outside the warrior code or if it is necessary for self-defense." -Code Of The Clans/Secret of The Clans/etc. And Moonflower was outside the code! Then we have this rule: "A medicine cat must do everything in his or her power to save a sick or injured cat."- Medicine Cat Code. And the "injured cat" honestly could have been half of WindClan if she continued destroying the herb supplies, so he was totally right in killing her. What are your opinions on him? And who do you side with on the debate?
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 26, 2021 11:18:43 GMT -5
I think he's one of the more complex/morally gray characters in the series. I really like the concept of warriors-turned-medicine cats and do wish we saw more of them.
That said, he is, objectively, an ass (taunting Bluepaw after her mother's death, for one) and is generally an unsympathetic and short tempered medicine cat, but he's skilled and passionate about what he does. On whether him killing Moonflower was justified or not, I think that he was in the right in doing so. She was trying to destroy his herb supplies, and as the medicine cat, it's his right (heck, even his job) to defend the things he needs to heal his Clanmates. If he hadn't intervened, he wouldn't have had the herbs needed to heal WindClan. Moonflower was acting outside of the code and while Hawkheart maybe didn't need to kill her, he was still within his rights to do so.
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Post by downfalls on Jun 26, 2021 11:41:56 GMT -5
I used to hate him but now I like him. I don't necessarily like Moonflower anymore, since she wasn't that good of a parent and tried to steal herbs like it was nothing when she shouldn't have done that. Hawkheart was perfectly justified in killing her even if it means Bluepaw gets a bit sad.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 13:02:44 GMT -5
I like him and he was justified in killing Moonflower
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Post by Darkfang ☾ on Jun 26, 2021 13:43:40 GMT -5
Strong dislike. There was no need to kill Moonflower. He had already forced her to flee and he should have left it like that. Warriors are meant to show mercy. Not only did he kill her, he then taunted her kits, seemed proud of what he’d done and never showed any regret for his actions.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 26, 2021 16:16:11 GMT -5
Hawkheart is a very interesting character to me because he's clearly meant to be seen as a morally gray cat. I also would love to see more of warriors turned medicine cats as it's a concept with lots of potential for storylines.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 26, 2021 17:10:04 GMT -5
Neutral/dislike. Hawkheart was very justified in keeping his herb supply safe- Moonflower should have known better than to go after it. It's common sense that in battles, you go for the warriors, not for life-saving medicine. But what sours me on him is how he taunted Bluepaw about her death- that was really unnecessary.
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Post by fire on Jun 26, 2021 18:37:39 GMT -5
I used to hate him and argue against him in the Moonflower debate. Hell, I even thought he should've been in the Dark Forest. But now, I see that he was completely justified in defending the medicine herbs supply, and it even got to the point where he was enraged enough to kill Moonflower, which I can understand. If I were in that situation, I might do the same, since I'm a bit of a hothead. But yeah, Moonflower was completely wrong in what she was doing, even if Goosefeather said to do it based on a sign.
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Post by Rainsplash on Jun 26, 2021 18:42:26 GMT -5
Neutral/dislike. I like him as a character, sure, we need morally gray people. But I don't like him. He didn't need to kill Moonflower. He already had her fleeing, and that's it. I hate how he taunted Bluepaw about her mother's death as well.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 26, 2021 20:13:41 GMT -5
He isn’t so bad. He was protecting the herb supply when he killed Moonflower, which could have saved several WindClan lives. He was only protecting his Clan. However, he did not need to be rude about it. He was nice in some of his other appearances. He does not deserve to go to the Dark Forest for simply protecting WindClan’s herb supply.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 26, 2021 20:24:28 GMT -5
I like him alot, actually. A Medicine Cat who’s not afraid to bend the rules to put his clan and their herb store first? Sign me up. Honestly, Moonflower broke the code the second she invaded and tried to endanger Windclan by tearing at their herb store. Hawkheart’s duty was, above all, to protect his clan, and that was done by rightfully guarding his herbs. Her death was sad, but it was justifiable in my eyes if you purposefully target medicine that is used to save lives. Hawkheart being harsh towards Bluepaw was very clear, but at the same time, it’s refreshing to see a genuinely dangerous and brutal Medicine Cat who puts their clan first and foremost.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 26, 2021 21:13:14 GMT -5
hawkheart is awesome!
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 26, 2021 21:42:42 GMT -5
I don't like him.
Moonflower was beaten when he knocked her down. He didn't need to straight up murder her. I also don't like the fact that he taunted Bluepaw after killing her mother. That was gross and uncalled for.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jun 27, 2021 0:15:14 GMT -5
I always liked him, he's morally gray and honestly he had a very good reason to do what he did. Was it overkill? Sure, but nothing EVER said that Medicine Cats shouldn't nor are not allowed to be brutal as Warriors (Especially not one who originally was a Warrior to begin with), especially if it meant protecting the clan in any way. Moonflower destroyed his herbs by the time he got to her iirc, and that is fatal for a clan especially since the attack was in leaf-fall where herbs would no doubt get harder to find. She was outside the code. I do not fault him at all for being enraged for that, in fact if I was him I would've decked her as well.
I have a huge dislike for Wariors-turned-Med-Cats without a good reason for them to be, but he's one of THE few I actually like as it actually defines his character and he's actually one of the better ones out there.
He does not deserve the DF for what he did, and frankly seeing a Medicine Cat be as rough as him was really refreshing as everyone else are usually pacifists or terrible at fighting -for stupid reasons mind you-. Hawkheart on the other hand is that doctor with a gun meme that is like "I'm a healer, but-". He may be a healer when we first really see him, but he still has his Warrior roots and NEVER lost them with the role change and will absolutely use those roots despite the change to still protect his clan, he followed his moral code to keep his clan from harm the way he should and also did it in a Warrior way because he was that loyal and passionate, and I think that's pretty badass.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jun 27, 2021 6:10:35 GMT -5
Neutral, bordering on dislike.
I wouldn't say killing Moonflower was justified, although I could understand if it was in the heat of the moment kind of thing. He could have blinded Moonflower, tried to damage her leg, etc. rather than end her life. He could have turned to the other medicine cats if he lost his herbs (I know it was close to leaf-bare, but surely his fellow medicine cats would spare some). Taunting Bluepaw afterwards was just low.
I actually like him more in TR.
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Post by crowspirit on Jun 27, 2021 6:15:57 GMT -5
Oh, I do like him. I tend to like most morally gray and complicated characters (except for Skystar and Mudclaw because… yikes, I can't stand them.) Killing Moonflower wasn't justified, but I understand why he did it. She was destroying his herbs, which could have led to many of his clanmates getting sick or even dying. Would it have been better if he simply chased her off? Yes, but I think he was so caught up in the heat of the battle that he didn't think about this. To him, the only thing that mattered at that moment was protecting his den. There are other characters who killed during the heat of the battle, and they don't get nearly as much hate as Hawkheart. He's a pretty cool dude in Tallstarʼs Revenge and Yellowfangʼs Secret, I like him.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 27, 2021 6:41:03 GMT -5
I think he's one of the more complex/morally gray characters in the series. I really like the concept of warriors-turned-medicine cats and do wish we saw more of them. That said, he is, objectively, an ass (taunting Bluepaw after her mother's death, for one) and is generally an unsympathetic and short tempered medicine cat, but he's skilled and passionate about what he does. On whether him killing Moonflower was justified or not, I think that he was in the right in doing so. She was trying to destroy his herb supplies, and as the medicine cat, it's his right (heck, even his job) to defend the things he needs to heal his Clanmates. If he hadn't intervened, he wouldn't have had the herbs needed to heal WindClan. Moonflower was acting outside of the code and while Hawkheart maybe didn't need to kill her, he was still within his rights to do so. I feel that, even if he's not the nicest cat, it makes him a morally gray character since he wanted to protect his Clanmates, but he goes to the extreme method of killing her and even gets sassy with Bluepaw. And he may appear a jerk- but he's really nice with his Clanmates and seems wise and humorous at times. He isin't totally evil, but not a true saint either.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 27, 2021 7:55:41 GMT -5
Dislike, borderline hate. Only because people try to justify him going after Moonflower despite the fact that: 1. The dude was looking for a fight from the start instead of doing his duty as a medicine cat. The fact that he tried to pick a fight with an apprnetice, who was easily underpowered compared to him, and had to be told off by his leader to go do his duties, says a lot. 2. If he was doing his job from the start, the medicine supply would have most likely survived. He's obviously a very talented fighter, if he was in his den, doing his duty, and protecting his supply, instead of trying to pick a fight, then his supply wouldn't have been destroyed. He chased out the cats, and stopped them from destroying the supply, but apparently that wasn't enough to him. 3. I know people rail on old senile Russetfur for killing Firestar, but don't see as many people do the same with Hawkheart. The dude flung Moonflower like a ragdoll the moment she escaped the den after destroying the supplies. But that alone was enough to immobilize her, and teach her a lesson. However, it's the actions afterward that WEREN'T justifiable, when he continued his attack, pouncing on her with intent to hurt her further and thus killing her intentionally. He already took her down but wanted to continue until she was dead because he's nothing but a battle-hungry mongrel. I personally don't have a problem with people liking him, but the fact that this is excused by many that do like him, is why he's borderline hate for me. He clearly broke the code, and as a medicine cat and warrior, it's disgraceful imo, and he has no excuse for it. He didn't kill Moonflower because he was trying to protect the herbs, he killed her in an act of retaliation. And its even more evident since he taunts Bluepaw after murdering her mother, he's an unsympathetic ass that used his position to get away with murder. If anything, Moonflower was acting more within the code then him, since it was her leader that ordered them to attack and destroy the supply, thanks to her brother who was the medicine cat.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 27, 2021 8:00:08 GMT -5
Hated him in BP, liked him in everything else. In general, I'm neutral on him.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 27, 2021 8:27:15 GMT -5
2. If he was doing his job from the start, the medicine supply would have most likely survived. He's obviously a very talented fighter, if he was in his den, doing his duty, and protecting his supply, instead of trying to pick a fight, then his supply wouldn't have been destroyed. And now it's an issue for his entire clan, because cats can die from lack of herbs in the wake of the battle, but whatever I guess if it means he can get a quick fight off right? Hawkheart actually goes back to doing his duties after Heatherstar orders him to, and when he's alerted of the attack on his den, it's even mentioned he'd been was tending to a Clanmate. The battle was basically a distraction, seeing as how destroying the herbs was the main goal. That being said however, I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Moonflower had not only already destroyed the herbs, but she was already in the process of running away when Hawkheart waits for her outside the den and attacks her. If anyone needs a reference, here's the entire scene. Either way, he really didn't need to go as far as he did.
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Post by Aqua on Jun 27, 2021 11:31:52 GMT -5
I used to hate him but now I like him. I don't necessarily like Moonflower anymore, since she wasn't that good of a parent and tried to steal herbs like it was nothing when she shouldn't have done that. Hawkheart was perfectly justified in killing her even if it means Bluepaw gets a bit sad. Moonflower was following her leader, just as Hawkheart was following the code to protect his Clanmates. In the end, it's a neutral situation at best. Both Hawk and Moon were in the wrong, and their leader and medicine cat shouldn't have told their warriors to attack WindClan's camp. I mostly blame Goosefeather the most here. Moonflower and Hawkheart were simply following orders, both doing crimes they shouldn't have done. She also wasn't that bad as a mother either. She always worried about her kits, telling off Goosefeather when he didn't watch Snowkit eating the herbs, and made sure her kits were comforted when they needed her. She's a lot better than Stormtail ever was as a parent. I don't agree with Hawkheart killing Moonflower, but if you're going to dislike Moonflower for attacking the herb supply, then you should take note that Hawkheart did a pretty bad thing too.
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Post by Numquam on Jun 27, 2021 11:56:44 GMT -5
I love him a lot. I like that he's not the stereotypical calm wise medicine cat and the fact that he actually went out of his way to kill another cat, regardless of how justified or not it is, is really interesting to me. I also love how he interacts with his clanmates.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jun 27, 2021 15:58:59 GMT -5
Neutral in everything but Bluestar's Prophecy. He was out of the code, even if you use the medicine cats' code. Moonflower was down and out. He took it too far and was warned a handful of time by his leader.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 27, 2021 17:15:09 GMT -5
2. If he was doing his job from the start, the medicine supply would have most likely survived. He's obviously a very talented fighter, if he was in his den, doing his duty, and protecting his supply, instead of trying to pick a fight, then his supply wouldn't have been destroyed. And now it's an issue for his entire clan, because cats can die from lack of herbs in the wake of the battle, but whatever I guess if it means he can get a quick fight off right? Hawkheart actually goes back to doing his duties after Heatherstar orders him to, and when he's alerted of the attack on his den, it's even mentioned he'd been was tending to a Clanmate. The battle was basically a distraction, seeing as how destroying the herbs was the main goal. That being said however, I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Moonflower had not only already destroyed the herbs, but she was already in the process of running away when Hawkheart waits for her outside the den and attacks her. If anyone needs a reference, here's the entire scene. Either way, he really didn't need to go as far as he did. Huh, I'm glad you posted this. I had remembered it as Hawkheart killing Moonflower upon finding her in the middle of destroying them, in an attempt to defend them, but I can see I was wrong. Yeah no he was definitely acting out of the code here and took it way too far by killing her. She shouldn't have gone for the herbs (I think doing that's a pretty despicable thing to do), but he clearly killed her in an act of revenge/retaliation.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 27, 2021 17:37:29 GMT -5
Hawkheart actually goes back to doing his duties after Heatherstar orders him to, and when he's alerted of the attack on his den, it's even mentioned he'd been was tending to a Clanmate. The battle was basically a distraction, seeing as how destroying the herbs was the main goal. That being said however, I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Moonflower had not only already destroyed the herbs, but she was already in the process of running away when Hawkheart waits for her outside the den and attacks her. If anyone needs a reference, here's the entire scene. Either way, he really didn't need to go as far as he did. Huh, I'm glad you posted this. I had remembered it as Hawkheart killing Moonflower upon finding her in the middle of destroying them, in an attempt to defend them, but I can see I was wrong. Yeah no he was definitely acting out of the code here and took it way too far by killing her. She shouldn't have gone for the herbs (I think doing that's a pretty despicable thing to do), but he clearly killed her in an act of revenge/retaliation. Sure thing! Whenever Hawkheart killing Moonflower comes up, I noticed what exactly happened gets misremembered alot, but yeah, he wasn't defending anything.
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Jun 27, 2021 18:49:17 GMT -5
I love him. His attitude and actions add some much needed spice to the books. I'd love more books based around his generation.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 27, 2021 18:58:37 GMT -5
2. If he was doing his job from the start, the medicine supply would have most likely survived. He's obviously a very talented fighter, if he was in his den, doing his duty, and protecting his supply, instead of trying to pick a fight, then his supply wouldn't have been destroyed. And now it's an issue for his entire clan, because cats can die from lack of herbs in the wake of the battle, but whatever I guess if it means he can get a quick fight off right? Hawkheart actually goes back to doing his duties after Heatherstar orders him to, and when he's alerted of the attack on his den, it's even mentioned he'd been was tending to a Clanmate. The battle was basically a distraction, seeing as how destroying the herbs was the main goal. That being said however, I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Moonflower had not only already destroyed the herbs, but she was already in the process of running away when Hawkheart waits for her outside the den and attacks her. If anyone needs a reference, here's the entire scene. Either way, he really didn't need to go as far as he did. I edited my post hours ago because I recalled that. Either way, I do agree with the rest of what you said. He stayed outside of the den to wait for Moonflower, and pounced on her like prey, before flinging her. And then continuing to attack her out of retaliation while she was already down, he wasn't protecting anything at that point. I get if people like him as a character, that's fine, but what he did was inexcusable and not justifiable in the least. It's the saying, "two wrongs don't make a right". And even after knowingly killing Bluepaw's mother, he still taunted her right after, and continued to mock her even at gatherings, the fact that his own leader had to tell him off several times for doing this too says a lot. I personally find him scummy for picking on an apprentice and murdering someone even though they took an oath to protect and save lives.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jun 27, 2021 20:00:48 GMT -5
I don't like him.
It makes my blood boil when people defend him for killing Moonflower. Yes, he had a right to protect his herbs. He didn't need to kill Moonflower to do that.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 28, 2021 13:43:51 GMT -5
I feel like the scene where he attacks Moonflower right when she leaves the medicine den is overlooked. Just as warriors and medicine cats aren't expected to kill, warriors shouldn't target the medicine den indirectly causing lots of deaths. If ThunderClan had to attack, Hawkheart atleast expected them to uphold the warrior code, and at the bare minimum not use dirty methods, so it makes sense in my eyes that he dosen't aim to defend it the first second they attack and that he finds it unexpected. Some medicine cats often stay in the battlefield to check for injuries, so i'm guessing that's what Hawkheart could have been doing at the moment. He dosen't have any foresight to know they would attack the medicine den. Just as they don't expect them to attack the nursery or apprentices den, it's the same.
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