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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 18, 2021 2:40:08 GMT -5
Imo, i think one of the reasons Sandstorm seems to become boring later on, is because her character isin't as agressive, hotheaded and spunky as Dustpelt, so she often stays in the background, meanwhile he gets a lot more spotlight. Her character may not have much to show in the plot anymore. And since he's always having a lot more kits, the attention shifts more to him, meanwhile Sandstorm's only kits are Squirrelflight and Leafpool. And one of the reasons she appears so much beside Firestar, may be due to her also being one of his stronger supporters, and the kin of most of our protagonists, wich leads her to also appearing a lot beside Firestar... Because she's also his mate.
And about FireSand... I belive it's not that complicated. They are healthy, drama-free, and there's no need for both characters to stir up drama. Both characters are also a bit passive too. So i never understood the complaint that they became boring once they got together. There's just no need to have them fight or whatever.
Also, i belive that there's simply no need for Dustpelt and Sandstorm to mantain a high level of friendship once again. He made little effort to change and continued to be rude, and when he did start respecting Firestar, she had already cut ties with him, because she gave him lots of opportunites to change his behaviour, but he didin't. So there was no need for her to become his best friend again, but she did respect him as a powerful warrior and Clanmate.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 18, 2021 3:54:38 GMT -5
A couple doesn't have to argue to be more interesting. Again, my point is that the lack of Sand's character agency just made me not care for the couple, no one is saying it's not "healthy" but it's just not to my taste. The initial way their relationship started left a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't like how DustSand got shoved aside just to make SandFire look better, and then DustFern ended up being a consolation prize. I didn't like how DustFern came off as pretty creepy considering he was overeager to train FernPAW, and had interest in her as an apprentice. I don't like how cliche FireSand is, especially for the first main character pairing, the tropes they used were pretty meh in my opinion, and they could have done so much more to make it more interesting. And I didn't like how Sand's character just faded into the background until after Firestar's literal death, for her to finally shine again as her own independent character, an have other prominent relationships with other cats that aren't Firestar, like with Alderheart. I have a lot of qualms about FireSand, and DustFern for that matter, and again, my opinions probably won't change because most of these problems I had with the pairings was upon my second time around reading the entire series again. I just don't care for them, healthy or not, fighting or not, it's just boring and less interesting compared to other options imo. I feel that from a writing perspective the Erins could have done so much more with them but they didn't, probably because it was their first protag relationship, but that doesn't mean it's the best one either, just like how I don't think Firestar is the best protag, etc. I think the only reason most fans cling to it is because of nostalgia reasons imo, kinda like how fans cling to the first generation of Pokemon, just cause it's the first, doesn't mean it's not good, but it also doesn't mean it's the best. But yeah, that's just my opinion on the whole thing.
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Post by downfalls on Jun 18, 2021 4:35:23 GMT -5
Sandstorm's development is immaculate. Very healthy and well developed, and tolerable to read.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Jun 18, 2021 6:32:46 GMT -5
No offense, I think you're missing my point. And I should probably be more clear, my opinion on the matter probably won't change because of how poorly the situation was handled in general. And I'm already aware of all of these quotes mind you. I personally will stick with what Cherith and the books show, it's simply a case of Dustpelt initially having a crush on Sandstorm and liking her, but then becoming jealous when she paid more attention to Fireheart over him. It's not complicating, just like Cinderpelt's feelings for Firestar, which were indeed actually shown and stated in the books as well as the author. Death of an author is a bit baffling in a situation like this, especially considering other Erins expressed similar things about the relationship as well in other Hunter Chats: Question: Did Dustpelt and Sandstorm have a relationship before Firestar came along? Answer: VickyHolmes: They were very good friends, and Dustpelt definitely thought they might be headed for something more but Sandstorm didn't feel the same way. That's one reason why Dustpelt didn't get on with Firestar back then!
CherithBaldry: Dustpelt and Sandstorm could never have been a couple. They're too alike - both a bit irritable and can be sarcastic. Ferncloud is much gentler - better for Dustpelt. Question: What is your favorite shipping (aka: who is your favorite couple) from any of the books/series? Answer: CherithBaldry: Leafpool/Crowfeather, because they love each other so much, but it's clear there's no way it'll ever Leafpool/Crowfeather, as I said a while back. And all through NP I was rooting for Brambleclaw/Squirrelflight. I was really glad to see Dustpelt with Ferncloud, too, after he was disappointed over Sandstorm. I don't think Dustpelt and Sandstorm could ever have made a go of it - they'd have clawed each other to bits! Vicky and Cherith both state and acknowledge that Dustpelt > Sandstorm was a thing, hence his jealousy and why he and Firestar truly didn't actually get along. However, later they solved this by giving Ferncloud to him as a love interest instead, and then focused on fleshing out Firestar's and Dustpelt's relationship then. But never Sandstorm and Dustpelt, they never got an actual proper conclusion to their relationship regardless of them being "civil" around one another. They're clanmates after all, it's what you're supposed to expect of them. I'm just more disappointed that as friends there was just never anything there anymore, and Sandstorm was too busy revolving around Firestar to have her own character. That is my point. Ok, sorry for not addressing your main point. I agreed generally with the Sandstorm being a side character who only was noted in relation to Firestar aspect of it. However it seems we disagree on two major premises: a) that DustSand as a ship is relevant and a major factor to his attitude towards Fireheart and b) Dust and Sand *needed* relationship closure to be a relatable/interesting dynamic. Because of that, I simply can't draw the same conclusion you did with respect to how Sandstorm and Dustpelt in particular needed more detail and closure. I also don't think FireSand boring/cliche but that's just a matter of personal preference. I'm sure you understand that it's not a 1:1 :: Fire saved her : she fell in love. It's just, not enough characterisation is a problem this series as a whole runs into constantly with their bg characters, and I don't think Sand/Dust is particularly special case. We never see Sandstorm and Graystripe or Dustpelt and Graystripe talk about about how Graypaw was forced to cut their relationship off because of their bullying. Maybe Dustpelt got more interesting development, but his relationship also revolved around Firestar insofar that he was only presented as interesting *because* he didn't like Fireheart at first, so his turnaround is made interesting because his attitude to Firestar changed. The only moments he had separate from Firestar was his soft side shown with his love interest, Ferncloud. Plus, even taking into account the Erin's quotes (which I would still just take with a grain of salt, just a personal stance), they don't say Dustpelt being jealous is the primary cause of his bullying as you claim. Yes, Cherith stated the connection is one to one, however Vicky says that it's "one of the reasons", not the main motivation. If we are going to accept this premise, I would lean towards Vicky's interpretation, it's one of many other factors that contribute to his disdain towards Fireheart. It doesn't make sense if the cause and effect was really that straightforward, since Dustpaw bullied Fireheart before Sandpaw got close to him, and again, in the books Dustpelt was shown to be envious of him in other instances like over apprenticeship or deputyship. I don't want to reduce Dustpelt to a love interest bg character who gets shafted, he certainly has other compelling motivations to his mistreatment of Fireheart. The way Fireheart exposed Tigerclaw, for one, would have seriously damaged his pride because he looked up to Tigerclaw. And again, Sandstorm and Dustpelt didn't demand a proper resolution, because in real life a lot of relationships end in the way they did. We don't even know how close they were before Firepaw arrived, perhaps they weren't two peas in a pod and shared a friendly rivalry like they do with Graypaw. We only know that they banded together to bully Firepaw/heart. After Sandpaw changed her mind about it, she decided to challenge the goading, expecting him to change, but when he didn't she kept her distance. Realistically, I would expect it if a group of middle school students drift apart naturally if some of them were being bullies/toxic. In fact, my experiences were Just Like That in middle school. I had made new friends in middle school, and we shared so many interests, and had the same cultural background. It really felt like I made some actual close friends for the time, when previously I struggled to make friends. But, one of my friends became pretty toxic to be around, and at first I played along with her bullying. However, when I became her next target, it was both a shock and really hurt. I realised that I didn't want to go along with her, and I needed to stand up to her. That's all I did, I told her off and left the group. I didn't talk with her seriously about our relationship or tried to find closure with the group. We just drifted apart, and lived our own lives. In high school we talked sometimes, after we both grew up from that experience, and we don't go back to that time in conversation. It's in the past. So, when I was kid reading this, I wasn't thinking about how jealous Dustpelt had a crush on Sandstorm, I was more impressed with how she stood up to a bully and changed her ways when Dustpelt didn't. Maybe my personal experience colours my view of the Sand/Dust relationship, but I really don't think they need any closure. Friendships just change sometimes, and drift apart without anything else to be said. Still, it's great to want for more fleshed out bg characters, we all know this series needs it. What kind of conversation do you want Sandstorm to have with Dustpelt? And in this instance you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying they were friends currently, just that the narration described their past relationship as that, and a shared apprenticeship, without subtext that would make me think otherwise. I just want to point out that the Fire/Sand/Dust situation we were given in the books actually has a lot going on in it, certainly more than just a petty love triangle where the female character is only there to support lead male. Sandstorm's change makes a good foil for Dustpelt's begrudging change. She changes because she comes to really appreciate Fireheart's best qualities and supports him by understanding him; he changes out of a hard-earned respect, and supports him, even if he doesn't understand them fully, by gently challenging his decisions. Sandstorm comes to respect Fireheart by getting into the heart of who he his, through the personal, Dustpelt comes respects Fireheart through accepting his role in the Clan, through the collective.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 18, 2021 23:25:27 GMT -5
No offense, I think you're missing my point.
And I should probably be more clear, my opinion on the matter probably won't change because of how poorly the situation was handled in general. And I'm already aware of all of these quotes mind you.
I personally will stick with what Cherith and the books show, it's simply a case of Dustpelt initially having a crush on Sandstorm and liking her, but then becoming jealous when she paid more attention to Fireheart over him. It's not complicating, just like Cinderpelt's feelings for Firestar, which were indeed actually shown and stated in the books as well as the author. Death of an author is a bit baffling in a situation like this, especially considering other Erins expressed similar things about the relationship as well in other Hunter Chats:
Question: Did Dustpelt and Sandstorm have a relationship before Firestar came along?
Answer: VickyHolmes: They were very good friends, and Dustpelt definitely thought they might be headed for something more but Sandstorm didn't feel the same way. That's one reason why Dustpelt didn't get on with Firestar back then!
CherithBaldry: Dustpelt and Sandstorm could never have been a couple. They're too alike - both a bit irritable and can be sarcastic. Ferncloud is much gentler - better for Dustpelt.
Question: What is your favorite shipping (aka: who is your favorite couple) from any of the books/series?
Answer: CherithBaldry: Leafpool/Crowfeather, because they love each other so much, but it's clear there's no way it'll ever Leafpool/Crowfeather, as I said a while back. And all through NP I was rooting for Brambleclaw/Squirrelflight. I was really glad to see Dustpelt with Ferncloud, too, after he was disappointed over Sandstorm. I don't think Dustpelt and Sandstorm could ever have made a go of it - they'd have clawed each other to bits!
Vicky and Cherith both state and acknowledge that Dustpelt > Sandstorm was a thing, hence his jealousy and why he and Firestar truly didn't actually get along. However, later they solved this by giving Ferncloud to him as a love interest instead, and then focused on fleshing out Firestar's and Dustpelt's relationship then. But never Sandstorm and Dustpelt, they never got an actual proper conclusion to their relationship regardless of them being "civil" around one another. They're clanmates after all, it's what you're supposed to expect of them. I'm just more disappointed that as friends there was just never anything there anymore, and Sandstorm was too busy revolving around Firestar to have her own character. That is my point. Ok, sorry for not addressing your main point. I agreed generally with the Sandstorm being a side character who only was noted in relation to Firestar aspect of it. However it seems we disagree on two major premises: a) that DustSand as a ship is relevant and a major factor to his attitude towards Fireheart and Dust and Sand *needed* relationship closure to be a relatable/interesting dynamic. Because of that, I simply can't draw the same conclusion you did with respect to how Sandstorm and Dustpelt in particular needed more detail and closure. I also don't think FireSand boring/cliche but that's just a matter of personal preference. I'm sure you understand that it's not a 1:1 :: Fire saved her : she fell in love. It's just, not enough characterisation is a problem this series as a whole runs into constantly with their bg characters, and I don't think Sand/Dust is particularly special case. We never see Sandstorm and Graystripe or Dustpelt and Graystripe talk about about how Graypaw was forced to cut their relationship off because of their bullying. Maybe Dustpelt got more interesting development, but his relationship also revolved around Firestar insofar that he was only presented as interesting *because* he didn't like Fireheart at first, so his turnaround is made interesting because his attitude to Firestar changed. The only moments he had separate from Firestar was his soft side shown with his love interest, Ferncloud. Plus, even taking into account the Erin's quotes (which I would still just take with a grain of salt, just a personal stance), they don't say Dustpelt being jealous is the primary cause of his bullying as you claim. Yes, Cherith stated the connection is one to one, however Vicky says that it's "one of the reasons", not the main motivation. If we are going to accept this premise, I would lean towards Vicky's interpretation, it's one of many other factors that contribute to his disdain towards Fireheart. It doesn't make sense if the cause and effect was really that straightforward, since Dustpaw bullied Fireheart before Sandpaw got close to him, and again, in the books Dustpelt was shown to be envious of him in other instances like over apprenticeship or deputyship. I don't want to reduce Dustpelt to a love interest bg character who gets shafted, he certainly has other compelling motivations to his mistreatment of Fireheart. The way Fireheart exposed Tigerclaw, for one, would have seriously damaged his pride because he looked up to Tigerclaw. And again, Sandstorm and Dustpelt didn't demand a proper resolution, because in real life a lot of relationships end in the way they did. We don't even know how close they were before Firepaw arrived, perhaps they weren't two peas in a pod and shared a friendly rivalry like they do with Graypaw. We only know that they banded together to bully Firepaw/heart. After Sandpaw changed her mind about it, she decided to challenge the goading, expecting him to change, but when he didn't she kept her distance. Realistically, I would expect it if a group of middle school students drift apart naturally if some of them were being bullies/toxic. In fact, my experiences were Just Like That in middle school. I had made new friends in middle school, and we shared so many interests, and had the same cultural background. It really felt like I made some actual close friends for the time, when previously I struggled to make friends. But, one of my friends became pretty toxic to be around, and at first I played along with her bullying. However, when I became her next target, it was both a shock and really hurt. I realised that I didn't want to go along with her, and I needed to stand up to her. That's all I did, I told her off and left the group. I didn't talk with her seriously about our relationship or tried to find closure with the group. We just drifted apart, and lived our own lives. In high school we talked sometimes, after we both grew up from that experience, and we don't go back to that time in conversation. It's in the past. So, when I was kid reading this, I wasn't thinking about how jealous Dustpelt had a crush on Sandstorm, I was more impressed with how she stood up to a bully and changed her ways when Dustpelt didn't. Maybe my personal experience colours my view of the Sand/Dust relationship, but I really don't think they need any closure. Friendships just change sometimes, and drift apart without anything else to be said. Still, it's great to want for more fleshed out bg characters, we all know this series needs it. What kind of conversation do you want Sandstorm to have with Dustpelt? And in this instance you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying they were friends currently, just that the narration described their past relationship as that, and a shared apprenticeship, without subtext that would make me think otherwise. I just want to point out that the Fire/Sand/Dust situation we were given in the books actually has a lot going on in it, certainly more than just a petty love triangle where the female character is only there to support lead male. Sandstorm's change makes a good foil for Dustpelt's begrudging change. She changes because she comes to really appreciate Fireheart's best qualities and supports him by understanding him; he changes out of a hard-earned respect, and supports him, even if he doesn't understand them fully, by gently challenging his decisions. Sandstorm comes to respect Fireheart by getting into the heart of who he his, through the personal, Dustpelt comes respects Fireheart through accepting his role in the Clan, through the collective. Listen, and again, no offense, but my opinion won't really change, and I'm not trying to debate either. These thoughts are things that I personally concluded after re-reading the series and honestly just not thinking it was as great as I did back then. Because of my personal demographic, I just did not find it as appealing the second time around. To me, Firestar saving Sandstorm, is cliché and boring, and it is because of him saving her that she fell head over heels for him in the first place. It's called "Rescue Romance" they did it with GraySilver, and even later again with CrowLeaf, HawkPebble, and RootBristle, etc. It's a constant trope that pops up in Warriors, and way too common in other media in general as well. To me it made SandFire less appealing and underwhelming, and quite honestly made their relationship just as unappealing to me as SpottedFire, since SpottedFire went the "Florence Nightingale" route. I didn't care for it. Regardless of how many people try to claim, "She fell in love with him later, not immediately" it still doesn't change that they fall under the Rescue Romance trope. It's still a 1:1 situation of "He saved her: She later falls for him". The point still stands regardless of the time frame. This all happened in the first series, either the Erins have no excuse because they had way less background characters to deal with and could have openly just dealt with relationships better. Or....the relationships for main characters in general from back in the first series aren't that good, or well fleshed out, compared to the ones that come out today, including romance. And honestly I think either one is a viable point. The Erins didn't flesh out certain relationships that well back in the first series, which to me just means they weren't that good in general, and SandFire is one of those relationships. The only reason it doesn't get as much flack is because it was the "best out of the worst" situation, and I think compared to more solid romances nowadays, that are written out more, and explored in different POV's, FireSand isn't that special nor does it stand out much. Also this isn't real life, they're fictional magical (to a degree) cats. So there is no excuse Erins to not write them in a more appealing and satisfying way. From a writing perspective, the first series in general, really isn't that great imo, and I feel like the Erins definitely improved much more later with other series, over TPB. They're fantasy books, about fantasy cats, and I find them less entertaining if the Erins are supposedly trying so hard to make relationships like irl ones, which honestly aren't that great either. I think SandDust deserved more than to be shoved aside in favor of SandFire, just as much as I wanted the books to acknowledge and explore Dust/Gray and Raven/Dust, or Gray/Sand, etc. The og group may have nostalgia points, but the way the relationships were written for them was just...boring. And out of all of them, DustFire had the most interesting factors, while GrayFire had the most screentime in general, and the rest just wasn't really there or didn't matter much. Which honestly felt like a wasted opportunity to actually flesh out these characters properly, and their relationships, and not just make "Character A is now Character B's love interest, and now Character A will only be plot relevant to Character B." situations. So I think it's best for us to agree to disagree, because if it were up to me, I would have honestly just rewrote the majority of TPB tbh.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Jun 19, 2021 10:16:25 GMT -5
❅Maplefrost❅ o yea, agree to disagree. I wasn't expecting to change your mind or anything, just wanted to offer a different perspective. And this convo helped me flesh out my own thoughts on Sandstorm more, so I appreciate that. Besides, the Warriors series isn't a remarkable piece of writing to begin with anyways. I'm fine with holding lower standards if I think a couple has an interesting concept behind it, like FireSand and how it interplays with the world-building and feelings of acceptance. Characters were never the strong point, even if the newer books may do comparatively better. They try to do interesting things with characters but fall short sometimes, and I think that's why the fandom really clashes a lot with how they interpret characters. They aren't that convincingly written, and their motivations are murky. I think so much of how you parse a character in Warriors has a lot to do with the way you interpret them, and it's much more fun to fill in the gaps yourself-- which ofc leads to conflicting impressions. Like, imo tropes aren't inherently bad, they exist bc someone made it work. FireSand used the rescue scene and was executed well. The rescue was more or less a catalyst for Sandpaw's to address an internal conflict between what she was taught about kittypets v. how Fireheart actually is, which she probably would have to confront anyways (like Dustpelt did); it's different from GraySilver bc the rescue was a quick excuse to throw these characters together. That's how I interpret the situation, and there is evidence from the books to support this. But it's not the *only* interpretation either
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 19, 2021 10:37:44 GMT -5
This was from the very first EH Chat: Wow, I just love how the Erins contradict themselves. They say DustSand aren’t related and then make him her uncle later on. It’s very clear that the Erins don’t communicate with each other properly about things like this and it has ALWAYS bothered me so much. Like where is the consistency? Edit: I’m not sure what happened with the quote here…..
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Jun 19, 2021 11:01:59 GMT -5
Wow, I just love how the Erins contradict themselves. They say DustSand aren’t related and then make him her uncle later on. It’s very clear that the Erins don’t communicate with each other properly about things like this and it has ALWAYS bothered me so much. Like where is the consistency? I think it doesn't help that the Warriors Clans system just leads to inevitable entangled relations. Yet, fans do want to know who is related to whom, and which characters are x's parents. So, I wonder if the Erins just don't keep track of the family tree in detail, like I doubt they would remember the parents of bg characters. There were several times they even completely mixed up bg characters, bringing characters back from the dead or getting genders wrong.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 19, 2021 11:16:23 GMT -5
Wow, I just love how the Erins contradict themselves. They say DustSand aren’t related and then make him her uncle later on. It’s very clear that the Erins don’t communicate with each other properly about things like this and it has ALWAYS bothered me so much. Like where is the consistency? I think it doesn't help that the Warriors Clans system just leads to inevitable entangled relations. Yet, fans do want to know who is related to whom, and which characters are x's parents. So, I wonder if the Erins just don't keep track of the family tree in detail, like I doubt they would remember the parents of bg characters. There were several times they even completely mixed up bg characters, bringing characters back from the dead or getting genders wrong. Yeah, and it’s absolutely frustrating. Like do they not have what’s called a “series Bible”? I mean, I would if I was writing something as complicated as warriors with a team of people.
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