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Post by vectoring34 on May 3, 2021 10:41:59 GMT -5
Was it really? They had a mild drought at the beginning but other than that, everything else happened to Thunderclan as well. They had bouts with poisoned prey but so did Thunderclan. I don't think they really had it much worse than Thunderclan, and if anything, Thunderclan had it worse with more cats we know of dying as far as I remember. Thunderclan lost Dappletail, Shrewpaw, Frostfur, and Speckletail. Did Windclan even lose ANY cats to the Twoleg invasion, period? Even if my memory is wrong and Thunderclan didn't actually lose more than Windclan, it's still such a close race to the bottom in terms of suffering that it's a little bit rich to claim that Windclan suffered any more. It would have been true in the TPB days, but if he cared about that, then he'd care about being saved several times over by other clans(in particular Firestar) and working together. im not saying that other clans didnt have it just as bad, i just meant that mudclaw's internalized paranoia about windclan's strength makes sense in context of the hardships. But the hardships were only stopped by the clans working together. We saw in TNP that even if a clan was strong as could be(Riverclan), they ultimately were just as humbled in the end and forced to work together with the others. I can understand his mentality and how he got there, it makes sense for some cats to figure that the best way to solve the problem is to just be even stronger than everyone else. I just don't think it's an ideology that engenders me to think he'd being a positive influence on Windclan in general. In other words, it makes sense on the level that I can see how the dots connected in his head. It doesn't make sense in context of me thinking he'd make for a good leader.
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Post by halogen on May 3, 2021 11:05:59 GMT -5
wasn't windclan hit the hardest by the twoleg invasion in TNP? dude probably has trauma from watching his clan pretty much beg for others help while his clanmates died around him, it makes sense that he is so focused on security and making windclan look strong. Was it really? They had a mild drought at the beginning but other than that, everything else happened to Thunderclan as well. They had bouts with poisoned prey but so did Thunderclan. I don't think they really had it much worse than Thunderclan, and if anything, Thunderclan had it worse with more cats we know of dying as far as I remember. Thunderclan lost Dappletail, Shrewpaw, Frostfur, and Speckletail. Did Windclan even lose ANY cats to the Twoleg invasion, period? Even if my memory is wrong and Thunderclan didn't actually lose more than Windclan, it's still such a close race to the bottom in terms of suffering that it's a little bit rich to claim that Windclan suffered any more. It would have been true in the TPB days, but if he cared about that, then he'd care about being saved several times over by other clans(in particular Firestar) and working together. If I remember right, WindClan had three cats die to the poisoned prey, while ThunderClan just had Dappletail, Barkface warned Leafpool about it and how three cats had already died to it and Dappletail ate the rabbit after she gave the warning. And since WindClan isn't the POV Clan, we can't get the exact count on deaths, why should we assume there were no deaths besides the confirmed one, if WindClan was the POV Clan we probably would not have heard of all of the ThunderClan deaths. Cats don't announce in gatherings "oh, we just had a kit starve to death".
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Post by vectoring34 on May 3, 2021 12:19:51 GMT -5
Was it really? They had a mild drought at the beginning but other than that, everything else happened to Thunderclan as well. They had bouts with poisoned prey but so did Thunderclan. I don't think they really had it much worse than Thunderclan, and if anything, Thunderclan had it worse with more cats we know of dying as far as I remember. Thunderclan lost Dappletail, Shrewpaw, Frostfur, and Speckletail. Did Windclan even lose ANY cats to the Twoleg invasion, period? Even if my memory is wrong and Thunderclan didn't actually lose more than Windclan, it's still such a close race to the bottom in terms of suffering that it's a little bit rich to claim that Windclan suffered any more. It would have been true in the TPB days, but if he cared about that, then he'd care about being saved several times over by other clans(in particular Firestar) and working together. If I remember right, WindClan had three cats die to the poisoned prey, while ThunderClan just had Dappletail, Barkface warned Leafpool about it and how three cats had already died to it and Dappletail ate the rabbit after she gave the warning. And since WindClan isn't the POV Clan, we can't get the exact count on deaths, why should we assume there were no deaths besides the confirmed one, if WindClan was the POV Clan we probably would not have heard of all of the ThunderClan deaths. Cats don't announce in gatherings "oh, we just had a kit starve to death". Ah, you're right on this. They were unnamed cats who died, but Barkface mentions half their elders and nearly all of their apprentices. These numbers are vague, but would suggest something similar to Thunderclan's losses. Number of elders is usually about 4 in a clan, so that's two cats dead. How many apprentices they had is vague, but it's probably going to end up being something like 2 or 3 since we know two apprentices did survive and I can't imagine there were THAT many apprentices to begin with either. The numbers would seem to The fact that Windclan isn't a POV clan doesn't mean we can just extrapolate further by saying "cats must have died in the background" either though.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 3, 2021 14:15:39 GMT -5
wasn't windclan hit the hardest by the twoleg invasion in TNP? dude probably has trauma from watching his clan pretty much beg for others help while his clanmates died around him, it makes sense that he is so focused on security and making windclan look strong. Pretty much, people have to remember that WindClan was pretty much everyone's punching bag for quite a few generations at this point. Then having to deal with losing their territory so much, to not just other clans but also humans, of course they're going to be much more cautious. How does anyone expect them to trust other clans when they're always so eager to take over WindClan territory. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't some of the other clans unwillingly to return WindClan's territory back to them at one point? And also it wasn't just the journey, or ThunderClan's fault Mudclaw is so agressive. His environment created him to who he is now, and made his life be full of paranoia against the other Clans. > Mudclaw's father was Shrewclaw, who was killed by ShadowClan invading their camp and killing some of their warriors. He was probably told from young age that it was ShadowClan's fault his father died, leaving him with a suspicion of non-WindClan cats at young age. > The first time we see WindClan, they get driven out by ShadowClan from the moors, watching as neither ThunderClan or RiverClan stand up for them. > Thankfully ThunderClan would bring them back, right? Well, they sent two unexperienced warriors, how embarassing. > Then TigerClan attacks WindClan and Gorsepaw is murdered by Tigerstar. > Then the forest gets destroyed by twolegs, and hmm, i wonder who is leading them now? Firestar. Firestar of ThunderClan. > And when he rightfully wants to put an end to his Clan being dragged through the mud so much, Tallstar says that he wants peace with ThunderClan, allowing WindClan to be used as a punching bag once again if they wanted. > He was partially raised by Tallstar. He was his deputy. He soothed him through TigerClan, the forest falling, and gave him hope even through the entire journey. But then he was betrayed by Tallstar, the one he respected and trusted with his life. > What makes it entirely worse, is the fact that once again, the only cats who were there to witness Tallstar changing deputies were ThunderClan cats. Firestar, Brambleclaw, and Onewhisker, Firestar's friend. Just as it had been his entire life, their fate was choosen by cats outside their borders. He developed this ever since he was a young kit, causing him to grow more and more desperate as time passed. I feel like his rebellion was half-justified.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 3, 2021 14:31:27 GMT -5
Firestar did nothing of the sort, in fact he ceded command to the cats from the journey. All the clans did that. The only exception was Mudclaw, who proceeded to almost get his clan killed on the Thunderpath because he didn't want to listen to Crowfeather. That is Mudclaw's own fault for putting his pride above listening to others who know better. It's probably why he got sacked too.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 3, 2021 15:25:00 GMT -5
im not saying that other clans didnt have it just as bad, i just meant that mudclaw's internalized paranoia about windclan's strength makes sense in context of the hardships. But the hardships were only stopped by the clans working together. We saw in TNP that even if a clan was strong as could be(Riverclan), they ultimately were just as humbled in the end and forced to work together with the others. I can understand his mentality and how he got there, it makes sense for some cats to figure that the best way to solve the problem is to just be even stronger than everyone else. I just don't think it's an ideology that engenders me to think he'd being a positive influence on Windclan in general. In other words, it makes sense on the level that I can see how the dots connected in his head. It doesn't make sense in context of me thinking he'd make for a good leader. sorry, my fault for not being clear-- im not trying to defend Mudclaw or claim that his view is the most reasonable or best perspective, only that his paranoia is understandable and thus sympathetic. i dont think he would have been a good leader for the reasons you point out.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 3, 2021 15:35:02 GMT -5
Finally Marshkit's appereance is revealed, and how he died! Actually, this isn't how Marshkit died. He was only ever seen in Dawn and Starlight. During Dawn he got taken by an eagle in the mountains and was saved by Brackenfur. Oh, thanks!
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