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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 23, 2021 17:50:08 GMT -5
I know a lot of Warriors fans don’t like Crowfeather, and I can see why, especially with how fanon often portrays him. But, I will be defending him in this thread.
Crowfeather was born to two high-rank WindClan cats. He was the only surviving kit of his litter. Throughout his apprentice years, he had a lot of built-up teenage angst. His father, Deadfoot, died when he was young, so he never really had much of a father figure in his life. His deceased father chose him to go on the trip to the sun-drown place, which was where he met and fell in love with Feathertail. After she died saving him, the other Clan cats, and the tribe from Sharptooth, he blamed himself and clearly became depressed. He even tried killing himself by throwing himself in front of a monster. He became an outcast in WindClan. He was extremely depressed over Feathertail’s death for a really long time, but then he met Leafpool.
Leafpool finally brought light back into his life. When they fell in love, he was absolutely down to run away with her and start a new life with her away from the Clans. He actually felt happy for once. However, that was ripped from him again once Leafpool chose her own Clan over him after Cinderpelt had died in the badger attack. Not long after, he was with Nightcloud. He truly did not love Nightcloud. It’s heavily shown that the two of them never really loved each other and were not meant for each other. I think a lot of people dislike Crowfeather because of his relationships with Nightcloud and Breezepelt, but I would argue that he’s the victim in both of these situatuons. Plus, for the longest time, he had no idea that Leafpool had his kits, not knowing that Lionblaze, Jayfeather, and Hollyleaf were his until they were already grown. Crowfeather likely felt pressured to prove his loyalty to WindClan, which is why he disowned them at first. But he soon realized that it was wrong and grew to love Lionblaze and Jayfeather. He never really got to know Hollyleaf, but I wish he did.
Breezepelt was very disrespectful to his father through things that Nightcloud has told him. Crowfeather often told Breezepelt that all of his horrible actions were wrong and that he needed to be better. Nightcloud only encouraged the distant relationship between Crowfeather and Breezepelt and fueled Breezepelt’s anger. If I remember correctly, there is one scene where Nightcloud literally ATTACKS Crowfeather. And people like to say CROWFEATHER was abusive?! By the way, that idea stems from a toxic YouTuber who was a child predator and fetishized LGBTQ+ relationships, even saying that only the cats they did not like were straight (you may know who I’m talking about). Crowfeather was trying his best.
Nightcloud was absolutely the wrong cat for him to get together with and they never loved each other. It’s always hinted that Crowfeather still likes Leafpool, even though I would argue that she gaslighted him. Plus, Crowfeather definitely should’ve known about his kits with Leafpool. He had every right to know. Crowfeather never hated Breezepelt either. Breezepelt wanted to believe that Crowfeather did not like him and Nightcloud only encouraged it. Crowfeather should not have gotten with a cat he never truly loved and Nightcloud should not have treated Crowfeather the way she did or encouraged Breezepelt’s violent behavior. Crowfeather had a hard life, often showing signs of depression. He often had to choose his Clan over his own happiness. Crowfeather is a character I really pity a lot, even though he can be unlikable sometimes and I feel like some people just need to see things from his perspective. People really need to separate canon and fanon Crowfeather.
He is not as bad as some people make him out to be. His life has been very sad and he deserves love. Crowfeather’s Trial was a good book, but I felt like it mostly pointed the blame at Crowfeather instead of Nightcloud and Breezepelt, who were in more of the wrong in their messed up family relationship.
What do all of you think about Crowfeather?
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 23, 2021 18:00:57 GMT -5
For future reference, try to break up things like this into paragraphs. It'll make it infinitely more legible.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 23, 2021 18:04:44 GMT -5
For future reference, try to break up things like this into paragraphs. It'll make it infinitely more legible. Thanks! I’ll edit it.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jan 23, 2021 19:13:53 GMT -5
His past and angst still never ever excuse his neglect of his son. I don’t care how bad he had it or that he loved other cats, he’s not getting off scott free nor is he getting any of my love or care for countless moments of him not giving Breezepelt a shred of positivity or praise and only ever snapping at him or ignoring him all-together. If anything, him and Nightcloud have equal blame for this, and he gets no excuse or pity for not treating his kit like his kit. He gets much better in CT, but I’m kind of tired of this whole thought that hurting or neglecting others is okay because you had it rough.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 23, 2021 19:21:25 GMT -5
His past and angst still never ever excuse his neglect of his son. I don’t care how bad he had it or that he loved other cats, he’s not getting off scott free nor is he getting any of my love or care for countless moments of him not giving Breezepelt a shred of positivity or praise and only ever snapping at him or ignoring him all-together. If anything, him and Nightcloud have equal blame for this, and he gets no excuse or pity for not treating his kit like his kit. He gets much better in CT, but I’m kind of tired of this whole thought that hurting or neglecting others is okay because you had it rough. Absolutely. It does not excuse it. But a lot of the fandom makes Crowfeather seem worse than he actually is. I like to think that after losing Feathertail and having to break it off with Leafpool, he might’ve had a fear of getting too close to someone in fear that he may lose them, as with the case with Nightcloud or Breezepelt. It doesn’t excuse it at all, but I like to try to wonder what he was thinking at that time in his life.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 23, 2021 19:51:08 GMT -5
i agree. i only defend crowfeather when people think he's downright evil for things even that just is not the case. he is a very sympathetic character and has lost a lot, and worst part, is that no one was there to help him earlier on or teach him how to handle his emotions in a healthy way. we dont know if he ever had that in his life outside of ashfoot.
and you also make a good point about how losing feathertail and leafpool made him weary of getting turly close to others ever again. it gives a reason to understand his perspective, it doesn't excuse it. i wish more people would automatically know the difference between explaining and excusing.
also, i get behind the idea that feathertail might have coddled crowfeather too much, and once she died, he was left stranded with too much pain to be able to move on and mature as his own person. he was still a teen in TNP when he lost feathertail, and it felt like she was the "first cat" outside of ashfoot to give him positive and uplifting attention. once she was gone, he felt like he lost that and all development he was getting through her help was gone too. which is why he felt comforted again because of leafpool...and before he could get his happiness with someone new, it was ripped from him again as leafpool chose her clan over him. of course that'd hurt.
he went from being alone and grumpy, to finding comfort in feathertail and learning how to be better from her, to losing feathertail, to forcing himself to live alone util he dies (something he canonically thinks in crowfeather speaks before he met leafpaw), to meeting, falling for, and finding happiness in leafpool, then to decide to throw all clan life away to be with her and finally be happy without pain or conflict, only to LOSE leafpool right as he was starting to begin a new happy life with her...
it's a LOT for him to handle. his apprenticeship was interupted by the journey, and he put a lot of stock in feathertail. to me, his growth as a person was stunted and he failed to mature in a healthy way after losing both feathertail and leafpool. which is why in his head, taking a loveless mateship with nightcloud seemed like a "solution." he had no other way to cope alone.
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Post by Rainsplash on Jan 23, 2021 20:35:15 GMT -5
Crowfeather is often portrayed as "abusive, mean, and neglectful" in the fandom. But it's shown that Nightcloud refused to let Crowfeather near his son, as shown in The Sight, and mentioned in Crowfeather's Trial. He might've not praised Breezepaw on the journey, and it would've been helpful if he did praise him, but can that be a reason for training with maniacs?
Breezepelt was dumb. He decided to have revenge on his father, promising to kill him and give him pain or something like that. His hatred went too far, and some fans insist it was all "Crowfeather's fault, and Breezepelt was just wanting his father's luv!" when that can't be the case. Breezepelt just overreacted.
Crowfeather had many hardships, and he himself admits that he was afraid to love again, and he was distant. Distant.
I don't think he neglected his son. This is what neglect means. Maybe Crowfeather was distant. But Breezepelt had Nightcloud, Nightcloud didn't let Crowfeather near him, and he did care for Breezepelt. The Sight shows it, when Crowfeather is very anxious about Breezepelt, with Nightcloud whimpering and watching beside, while he digs up his son.
The WindClan family relationship was messed up. Crowfeather was wrong, Breezepelt was wrong, and Nightcloud was wrong.
Crowfeather's Trial, however, completely pins the blame on Crowfeather, making it look like he was the one who was wrong, because he'd been afraid to love. Breezepelt and Nightcloud are suddenly innocent people, just became a victim of Crowfeather's wrongdoing or whatever.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 23, 2021 20:35:39 GMT -5
i agree. i only defend crowfeather when people think he's downright evil for things even that just is not the case. he is a very sympathetic character and has lost a lot, and worst part, is that no one was there to help him earlier on or teach him how to handle his emotions in a healthy way. we dont know if he ever had that in his life outside of ashfoot. and you also make a good point about how losing feathertail and leafpool made him weary of getting turly close to others ever again. it gives a reason to understand his perspective, it doesn't excuse it. i wish more people would automatically know the difference between explaining and excusing. also, i get behind the idea that feathertail might have coddled crowfeather too much, and once she died, he was left stranded with too much pain to be able to move on and mature as his own person. he was still a teen in TNP when he lost feathertail, and it felt like she was the "first cat" outside of ashfoot to give him positive and uplifting attention. once she was gone, he felt like he lost that and all development he was getting through her help was gone too. which is why he felt comforted again because of leafpool...and before he could get his happiness with someone new, it was ripped from him again as leafpool chose her clan over him. of course that'd hurt. he went from being alone and grumpy, to finding comfort in feathertail and learning how to be better from her, to losing feathertail, to forcing himself to live alone util he dies (something he canonically thinks in crowfeather speaks before he met leafpaw), to meeting, falling for, and finding happiness in leafpool, then to decide to throw all clan life away to be with her and finally be happy without pain or conflict, only to LOSE leafpool right as he was starting to begin a new happy life with her... it's a LOT for him to handle. his apprenticeship was interupted by the journey, and he put a lot of stock in feathertail. to me, his growth as a person was stunted and he failed to mature in a healthy way after losing both feathertail and leafpool. which is why in his head, taking a loveless mateship with nightcloud seemed like a "solution." he had no other way to cope alone. Yep, exactly. I truly think people in the fandom make him seem worse than he actually is. He’s distant, but not abusive towards anybody.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 23, 2021 21:43:52 GMT -5
Crowfeather is often portrayed as "abusive, mean, and neglectful" in the fandom. But it's shown that Nightcloud refused to let Crowfeather near his son, as shown in The Sight, and mentioned in Crowfeather's Trial. He might've not praised Breezepaw on the journey, and it would've been helpful if he did praise him, but can that be a reason for training with maniacs? Breezepelt was dumb. He decided to have revenge on his father, promising to kill him and give him pain or something like that. His hatred went too far, and some fans insist it was all "Crowfeather's fault, and Breezepelt was just wanting his father's luv!" when that can't be the case. Breezepelt just overreacted. Crowfeather had many hardships, and he himself admits that he was afraid to love again, and he was distant. Distant. I don't think he neglected his son. This is what neglect means. Maybe Crowfeather was distant. But Breezepelt had Nightcloud, Nightcloud didn't let Crowfeather near him, and he did care for Breezepelt. The Sight shows it, when Crowfeather is very anxious about Breezepelt, with Nightcloud whimpering and watching beside, while he digs up his son. The WindClan family relationship was messed up. Crowfeather was wrong, Breezepelt was wrong, and Nightcloud was wrong. Crowfeather's Trial, however, completely pins the blame on Crowfeather, making it look like he was the one who was wrong, because he'd been afraid to love. Breezepelt and Nightcloud are suddenly innocent people, just became a victim of Crowfeather's wrongdoing or whatever. i dont like how majority of the fandom has victimized nightcloud....people still actively hate on breezepelt (not as much as crowfeather though), but nightcloud? people make her out to be this huge victim when that's not the truth. in my mind, nightcloud is still just as bad as crowfeather was. she DID keep crowfeather from breezepelt, and she DID canonically feed lies and poisonous words about crowfeather to breezepelt, AND she fed breezepelt's ego and let him do whatever he wanted without consequence, leading him down the path he went on in OotS. nightcloud isn't innocent. crowfeather isn't a horrible evil devil either. BOTH sucked in their family unit. BOTH are to blame for the path breezepelt would choose later in life. they're just lucky that breezepelt redeemed himself afterward (even if it was off screen...i still think crowfeather's SE should have gone to breezepelt instead so we could see his redemption first hand).
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jan 23, 2021 21:49:00 GMT -5
Crowfeather isn't a great cat, and I still find more to dislike than like about him (less after his SE) but I think he's a better cat than he is often portrayed as in this fandom- he's not insanely evil. So my opinion stands on neutral, borderline dislike for Crowfeather.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 23, 2021 21:53:13 GMT -5
Crowfeather is often portrayed as "abusive, mean, and neglectful" in the fandom. But it's shown that Nightcloud refused to let Crowfeather near his son, as shown in The Sight, and mentioned in Crowfeather's Trial. He might've not praised Breezepaw on the journey, and it would've been helpful if he did praise him, but can that be a reason for training with maniacs? Breezepelt was dumb. He decided to have revenge on his father, promising to kill him and give him pain or something like that. His hatred went too far, and some fans insist it was all "Crowfeather's fault, and Breezepelt was just wanting his father's luv!" when that can't be the case. Breezepelt just overreacted. Crowfeather had many hardships, and he himself admits that he was afraid to love again, and he was distant. Distant. I don't think he neglected his son. This is what neglect means. Maybe Crowfeather was distant. But Breezepelt had Nightcloud, Nightcloud didn't let Crowfeather near him, and he did care for Breezepelt. The Sight shows it, when Crowfeather is very anxious about Breezepelt, with Nightcloud whimpering and watching beside, while he digs up his son. The WindClan family relationship was messed up. Crowfeather was wrong, Breezepelt was wrong, and Nightcloud was wrong. Crowfeather's Trial, however, completely pins the blame on Crowfeather, making it look like he was the one who was wrong, because he'd been afraid to love. Breezepelt and Nightcloud are suddenly innocent people, just became a victim of Crowfeather's wrongdoing or whatever. Yep. Totally agree. I don’t think neglect is the right word. He was never abusive and it was spread by someone who was toxic in the Warriors fandom.
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Post by tallshadowstar on Jan 23, 2021 23:09:20 GMT -5
There's a difference between explaining and excusing. The hardships that Crowfeather has gone through explain why he was a distant father, but I don't think they excuse it or make it okay.
I don't buy that Nightcloud is completely to blame for Crowfeather's relationship with Breezepelt. She's absolutely a flawed cat and parent, but we're not shown a lot of the things that we're later told that she did. And regardless of what Nightcloud did and didn't do, there's an entire book where Crowfeather and Breezepaw are together without her influence, and Crowfeather makes no attempt to try and bond with his son. Instead, he's overly critical of Breezepaw or ignores him altogether. In Crowfeather's defense, the trip to the mountains probably pushed him further into his depression and self-isolating tendencies. But at the end of the day, it's his responsibility to build a relationship with his son, and his failure to do so is on him.
As for Breezepelt, I think his thought process through PO3 is pretty easy to follow, even if it's flawed: he sees that his father is distant, then it's revealed that he has children in another Clan, and from this he assumes that Crowfeather was distant because he and Nightcloud weren't the family that he wanted. It's a reasonable assumption to make, even though it's not the reality of the situation. What's not reasonable is Breezepelt deciding to make his father and half-siblings suffer through whatever means necessary, though. His anger at his father may have influenced his path, but it was his own choice to follow it. He should be held accountable for his actions just as much as Crowfeather is for his.
Crowfeather does have this line in The Last Hope: "I never hated you! That's just what you were determined to believe. And Nightcloud encouraged you." I know this gets pointed to a lot as proof that he wasn't a bad father, but personally it's always irked me. Sure, Crowfeather probably never hated his son, but he made little to no effort to bond with him or encourage him; why wouldn't Breezepelt assume his father didn't care about him? Love is a verb, not a presumption.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jan 23, 2021 23:21:20 GMT -5
Ok the whole “Nightcloud never let Crowfeather near his son” is disproven though, as she clearly wanted Crowfeather to get along with and have faith in Breezepaw when they went to the mountains. She literally tells Crowfeather and Breezepaw to come back safely and what does Crowfeather do? Certainly not have faith in him, or praise him when he genuinely does things worth praising. When multiple POVs talk about how sucky of a father Crowfeather was being, that’s a pretty big red flag. Forget about Nightcloud for a second, because this isn’t even about her. Crowfeather should be judged and held accountable for his actions or lack thereof. Which, alot of the fandom genuinely doesn’t do that and instead diverts his blame to everyone except him. There was an entire book about him being alone with his son and he made 0 attempt to bond with him.
Crowfeather’s Trial pinned the blame on him for his actions because alot of it was absolutely his fault. Absolutely, and he deserved to own up for his crap, which he did. Maybe if we had gotten a book on Breezepelt or Nightcloud that would have been focused on their parts of the blame. But I’m not focusing on those two when I talk about my anger towards Crowfeather. Crowfeather was neglectful. He absolutely was, and if he truly did care for his son, Nightcloud “not letting him” see him wouldn’t have stopped him. He has a responsibility as a father to be a father. Which he clearly didn’t do. Excused or explained, it’s kind of a crappy explanation to why he thinks being a horrible father is okay.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jan 24, 2021 1:00:10 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hate him because of how he acts around other cats. He always thinks everyone is dumb and is a show off. Though yes, he has had a life full of sadness and he does deserve something nice. I don’t think he will ever be involved much again though, as he is old and his time is over now. It would be interesting if he became leader. Oh, I really hope he doesn’t. I hate the idea of replacing a younger leader with an older leader lol. Plus, Harestar is a new leader and recently lost just his first life, so I’m hoping Crowfeather will die soon and Harestar will choose a younger cat as his deputy.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Jan 24, 2021 3:05:33 GMT -5
I'm fine with Crowfeather. I don't excuse his parenting, though. He and Nightcloud were both not very good parents to Breezepelt, and I like Nightcloud.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 24, 2021 5:30:12 GMT -5
Crowfeather is a very complex character, who has gone through a lot and eventually grown as a character. He lost Deadfoot. His siblings. Feathertail. He thinks that he has no reason to live anymore. Mudclaw. Leafpool. Nightcloud's two kits. And this would leave him numb, probably convincing himself that he could never love again. He became afraid of loving again and closed himself from the world.
And he was hurting so many people he cared about along the way. And he was fully aware. Crowfeather can't be excused because he has done morally wrong things like using Nightcloud or ignoring his son, and dosen't make an attempt to bond with them healthily until 2 years later. But that's a reason i like his character so much; He's complex amd his character has a lot of depth and developement during the series. He went from an apprentice who felt excluded in the Sun-drown journey, to a distant warrior, to a more open-minded, loyal and caring person.
He used Nightcloud for loyalty. Ignored his son. Hurt his TC family. But he owned up to his actions and strived to become a better person and started bonding with his son. I love how the Erins handled him.
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Post by cygna on Jan 26, 2021 12:19:00 GMT -5
he for sure has depression
given his suicide attempt and behavior of being unable to let go of the past
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:22:11 GMT -5
His past and angst still never ever excuse his neglect of his son. I don’t care how bad he had it or that he loved other cats, he’s not getting off scott free nor is he getting any of my love or care for countless moments of him not giving Breezepelt a shred of positivity or praise and only ever snapping at him or ignoring him all-together. If anything, him and Nightcloud have equal blame for this, and he gets no excuse or pity for not treating his kit like his kit. He gets much better in CT, but I’m kind of tired of this whole thought that hurting or neglecting others is okay because you had it rough. SO TRUE MY DUDE
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Genderfluid
Ravenwhisker
I like tree- and of course jayfeather and thrushpelt and whitestorm and longtail and barley and- :D
Pronouns: they/them , she/her, he/him
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Post by Ravenwhisker on Jan 27, 2021 3:08:32 GMT -5
I read every respond to this post and some I agree with , and some I don´t.
Anyways Crowfeather lived through many sad things and those left him broken. But he has done many bad things too. I like Crowfeather and count him to my favourite characters, he is flawed and did many bad decision.
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