Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 3, 2020 10:34:22 GMT -5
I say no. She had only been back for one book.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Oct 3, 2020 11:07:40 GMT -5
Yes. She should never have come back to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by highprince on Oct 3, 2020 11:24:29 GMT -5
She should’ve actually died at the end of Po3
|
|
|
Post by Sundance on Oct 3, 2020 12:03:45 GMT -5
I think Hollyleaf should have come back at the end of Book 3 or during Book 4 and been developed enough to either then have a satisfying real death or been made deputy.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 3, 2020 12:13:34 GMT -5
I ~very hesitantly~ chose yes.
I think "should" is too strong of a word to properly represent my view. Her death, imo, made sense for her development and it was exactly the way Hollyleaf would want to go. To be honest, I can't really imagine her living for years after, settling down like her brother, becoming a mellow middle-aged character. Hollyleaf was forced to mature too quickly by her self-imposed exile-- she wizened up, collected herself, but at the expense of youthful disposition. I don't think she ever would have fit back into clan life completely. The weight of her past and difficult isolation would always set her apart from peers both mentally and behaviorally.
For that reason, however, it would have been interesting to see her experience clan life for longer. A Hollyleaf without a Big Bad or prophecy to focus on, struggling to find her place, rebuilding relationships with family, would be fascinating even from an outside perspective (I really wanted to see her form a relationship with Leafpool in particular, and earn back Jayfeather's warmth). I think her experiences give her a unique perspective of life that would be refreshing in contrast to the typical clan way of thinking. So no, I don't think she needed to die in the Final Battle, but it was one of several possibly satisfying conclusions to her character arc.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 3, 2020 14:10:39 GMT -5
i guess dying is a good conclusion to her arc, but part of me wanted her to live. in my AU of post-OotS, i had hollyleaf become deputy (so squirrel died, foxleap became deputy, then foxleap chose hollyleaf as his deputy when he became foxstar..yeah the AU was wild).
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 3, 2020 16:53:19 GMT -5
Yes. She should never have come back to begin with. I don't know why they bothered to have her come back after she's been "dead" this whole time, just to kill her off the very next book. It was a waste of time and potential. Either they should have kept her dead, or bring her back to at least survive in the series much longer than 1 book.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Oct 3, 2020 18:04:59 GMT -5
Yes. She should never have come back to begin with. I don't know why they bothered to have her come back after she's been "dead" this whole time, just to kill her off the very next book. It was a waste of time and potential. Either they should have kept her dead, or bring her back to at least survive in the series much longer than 1 book. Fanservice. Hollyleaf's engorged fanbase loves her return.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Oct 3, 2020 18:23:28 GMT -5
I hate the idea that dying in a noble way automatically is a good conclusion to a redemption arc. It's lazy writing. I think making Hollyleaf live and maybe killing off one the Three would have been better.
|
|
Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
|
Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Oct 3, 2020 18:31:24 GMT -5
Yes, I don't know what else Hollyleaf could have done if she lived.
|
|
|
Post by highprince on Oct 3, 2020 18:44:25 GMT -5
Also, even though I wish she hadn’t been brought back in the first place, having her die in TLH is honestly so much better than having her live and do nothing but have children and exist for five more arcs like most main characters do.
|
|
|
Post by alphayamergo on Oct 3, 2020 20:26:56 GMT -5
I think it makes sense as a conclusion to her arc, it's just not the one I personally would have chosen.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Oct 3, 2020 20:40:47 GMT -5
imo she should have either actually died in Sunrise, or she should have come back in TFW, lived through all of OotS and then died in AVoS. I don't think she should have lived forever and settled down, I do think she should still die somewhat young, but I want her to die in a... idk, uniquely-timed way? instead of being lumped in with the rest of the Final Battle deaths. Does that make sense?
|
|
#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
|
Post by *Ravenpaw* on Oct 3, 2020 21:04:03 GMT -5
Yes. I don't think I could see her live past The Last Hope.
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 4, 2020 8:38:14 GMT -5
I don't know why they bothered to have her come back after she's been "dead" this whole time, just to kill her off the very next book. It was a waste of time and potential. Either they should have kept her dead, or bring her back to at least survive in the series much longer than 1 book. Fanservice. Hollyleaf's engorged fanbase loves her return. 12 year old me loved her return. Looking back at it, I find in underwhelming.
|
|
|
Post by jayfeather1234 on Oct 4, 2020 9:29:44 GMT -5
I think that the character arc was good, but would have been better if she didn’t fake her death. Her redemption arc was also good, but again it would have been better if she didn’t fake her death and continued her descent into madness. I found Hollyleaf to be one of the most compelling and fascinating characters in POT, as her arc was about how she went from being obsessed with the Warrior Code, to madness.
I actually liked that Hollyleaf never was one of the three because it subverted the general expectation that the three were siblings. However, I do think that they wasted Hollyleaf’s potential by having her fake her death. She was already borderline mad when finding out that her own birth broke two codes that she was obsessed with. If she did not fake her death, I imagine that she would have continued her downward spiral into madness, a shell of her former self, bent on punishing codebreakers as her birth breaking the code wouldn’t have happened if the code was properly enforced.
If the authors took this route for Hollyleaf, then her arc would have been a cautionary tale on the dangers of too much obsession. Her arc would have echoed much of the Ancient Greek myth of Oedipus, in that through learning, comes suffering. In both stories, ancient and new, Oedipus and Hollyleaf both desire to find out the truth of who their parents are, despite numerous warnings against it. Upon finding the terrible truth, they both are horrified and self exile themselves after suffering a horrible pain. In Oedipus’s case, he blinds himself, while in Hollyleaf’s case, she wounds her leg by a tunnel collapse.
Actually, upon typing this, I realized her arc already echoes Oedipus. However, if Hollyleaf did go on a crusade against codebreakers, she would have had a better arc, especially since a lot of the Dark Forest are codebreakers.
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 5, 2020 8:58:53 GMT -5
I never liked how she died to Hawkfrost of all cats
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Oct 5, 2020 10:32:44 GMT -5
I never liked how she died to Hawkfrost of all cats What's wrong with Hawkfrost? He was number 2 in the Dark Forest.
|
|
|
Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Oct 5, 2020 10:34:22 GMT -5
No it would have been interesting to see how she would have lived without Fallen Leaves (Maybe she would have taken another mate???)
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 5, 2020 10:46:25 GMT -5
I never liked how she died to Hawkfrost of all cats What's wrong with Hawkfrost? He was number 2 in the Dark Forest. I never liked Hawkfrost as a villain.
|
|
|
Post by halogen on Oct 5, 2020 16:15:21 GMT -5
I hate the idea that dying in a noble way automatically is a good conclusion to a redemption arc. It's lazy writing. I think making Hollyleaf live and maybe killing off one the Three would have been better. Yeah, I hate how the Erins in their "why did we kill off the cats we did in TLH" extra said basically that they killed Hollyleaf because they felt it wouldn't be right/deserved for her to live after everything she had done. Yes, there always is this inherent tension in how a character who has done horrible things and is trying to find redemption has to live with what they've done, but the way to deal with that is explore it, not to cheat and use a convenient easy way out. Plus the whole "redemption means death" thing always makes it seem like the book/other media is only paying lip service to the idea of forgiveness; sure, the characters allay they are willing to forgive, but the narrative says, "nope, you can never be forgiven". That said, it can work if the thing the character needs to be redeemed for is something like selfishness (being unwilling to do something as selfless as giving your life for someone) or cowardice (being too afraid to), but Hollyleaf's downfall was all about her pride, and she was always the type of cat willing to give her life for her Clan.
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 6, 2020 8:41:31 GMT -5
I hate the idea that dying in a noble way automatically is a good conclusion to a redemption arc. It's lazy writing. I think making Hollyleaf live and maybe killing off one the Three would have been better. Yeah, I hate how the Erins in their "why did we kill off the cats we did in TLH" extra said basically that they killed Hollyleaf because they felt it wouldn't be right/deserved for her to live after everything she had done. Yes, there always is this inherent tension in how a character who has done horrible things and is trying to find redemption has to live with what they've done, but the way to deal with that is explore it, not to cheat and use a convenient easy way out. Plus the whole "redemption means death" thing always makes it seem like the book/other media is only paying lip service to the idea of forgiveness; sure, the characters allay they are willing to forgive, but the narrative says, "nope, you can never be forgiven". That said, it can work if the thing the character needs to be redeemed for is something like selfishness (being unwilling to do something as selfless as giving your life for someone) or cowardice (being too afraid to), but Hollyleaf's downfall was all about her pride, and she was always the type of cat willing to give her life for her Clan. Breezepelt was/is much more deserving to die
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 6, 2020 17:33:54 GMT -5
I don't think a teen/young adult that was manipulated and groomed and grew up in a toxic environment is more deserving to die...
|
|
|
Post by Uмвяᴀ on Oct 6, 2020 17:57:28 GMT -5
Whether she dies or becomes a background character makes little difference to me.
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 8, 2020 14:08:15 GMT -5
I don't think a teen/young adult that was manipulated and groomed and grew up in a toxic environment is more deserving to die... He did try to kill a blind medicine cat and a queen and fought with the Dark Forest.
|
|
|
Post by StormPlayz on Oct 8, 2020 14:37:37 GMT -5
Ooh, this is a tough one. I liked Hollyleaf, and (sort of unpopular opinion) thought her descent into madness was very well-written. I hated to watch her die but also felt it was a good end to her character arc. I'm glad she came back, I loved TFW, but I thought dying in TLH was one of the few things the Erins got right in that book.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2020 14:42:58 GMT -5
I don't think a teen/young adult that was manipulated and groomed and grew up in a toxic environment is more deserving to die... He did try to kill a blind medicine cat and a queen and fought with the Dark Forest. Breezepelt doesn't deserve to die, but he deserved some sort of punishment. He wasn't manipulated; Breezepelt knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to hurt the three for being born. He wanted to hurt Crowfeather. He wanted revenge. He was listening to the Dark Forest warriors, going along with their plans, even calling Ivypool "crazy" when she went against their plans and turned on them. Breezepelt was attacking Clan cats. Perhaps at first Breezepelt was manipulated by them, but in the end, he chose to hurt others. He knew full well what he was doing. Onestar should've exiled him, at least.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 8, 2020 15:28:28 GMT -5
He did try to kill a blind medicine cat and a queen and fought with the Dark Forest. Breezepelt doesn't deserve to die, but he deserved some sort of punishment. He wasn't manipulated; Breezepelt knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to hurt the three for being born. He wanted to hurt Crowfeather. He wanted revenge. He was listening to the Dark Forest warriors, going along with their plans, even calling Ivypool "crazy" when she went against their plans and turned on them. Breezepelt was attacking Clan cats. Perhaps at first Breezepelt was manipulated by them, but in the end, he chose to hurt others. He knew full well what he was doing. Onestar should've exiled him, at least. Guilt tripping, gaslighting, peer pressure, negging, emotional blackmail, etc, are all forms of manipulation, and just a few ways to do it. In Breezepelt's case it's peer pressure. Breezepelt was a young character who was obviously an emotional wreck over his family, unstable, and easily influential. The Dark Forest took advantage of that, to give him "motive" to carry out his actions later on in the story. Even when he chose to attack Jayfeather, literally one of the leaders of the Dark Forest was encouraging him on and helping him, Brokenstar. Yes, Breezepelt did bad things, and did deserve to to be punished, but I don't think that warranted the death penalty, especially when he also didn't exactly kill another cat either. If there was one thing that ended up being a saving grace for his character, and able to at least give him a shot at redemption, is when he was prevented and denied from taking that step further that would have made him irredeemable. That's my opinion on the matter.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2020 23:41:03 GMT -5
Breezepelt doesn't deserve to die, but he deserved some sort of punishment. He wasn't manipulated; Breezepelt knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to hurt the three for being born. He wanted to hurt Crowfeather. He wanted revenge. He was listening to the Dark Forest warriors, going along with their plans, even calling Ivypool "crazy" when she went against their plans and turned on them. Breezepelt was attacking Clan cats. Perhaps at first Breezepelt was manipulated by them, but in the end, he chose to hurt others. He knew full well what he was doing. Onestar should've exiled him, at least. Guilt tripping, gaslighting, peer pressure, negging, emotional blackmail, etc, are all forms of manipulation, and just a few ways to do it. In Breezepelt's case it's peer pressure. Breezepelt was a young character who was obviously an emotional wreck over his family, unstable, and easily influential. The Dark Forest took advantage of that, to give him "motive" to carry out his actions later on in the story. Even when he chose to attack Jayfeather, literally one of the leaders of the Dark Forest was encouraging him on and helping him, Brokenstar. Yes, Breezepelt did bad things, and did deserve to to be punished, but I don't think that warranted the death penalty, especially when he also didn't exactly kill another cat either. If there was one thing that ended up being a saving grace for his character, and able to at least give him a shot at redemption, is when he was prevented and denied from taking that step further that would have made him irredeemable. That's my opinion on the matter. That's your opinion and I respect that. We will have to agree to disagree.
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Oct 25, 2020 8:59:51 GMT -5
Bumping this up again
|
|