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Post by Oceanmist97 on Aug 7, 2020 11:48:33 GMT -5
I never know how to feel about this topic. I feel as though I'm too biased to really be able to contribute to the discussion of these three, and I never want to feel as though I'm forcing my own opinion. So, with that in mind, I'm just going to say this: I don't believe we'll ever be able to have a concrete answer on this entire situation due to the Erins flip-flopping on the characters' personalities and motivations.
Vicky was still the headmaster during PoT and OoTS. That is when we get introduced to Crowfeather's WindClan family, Nightcloud and Breezepaw/pelt. From the get-go, Nightcloud is established as jealous, controlling, and a helicopter parent. Breezepaw is established as being bratty, mean, and desperate to impress his father. This isn't limited to just the arcs. Cats of The Clans has Rock viciously describing Nightcloud as hard to love. This was written by Vicky, by the way. Breezepelt was already building to a villain in PoT even though he never really reaches the mark until OoTS rolls around. Meanwhile, Crowfeather is described as resenting them, as if he had been forced to start this family. But Crowfeather was never forced or pressured into this, and the Erins never describe this as the case. This was his own decision. Crowfeather isn't really shown in a negative light due to this choice; his "prickly" WindClan family being so hard to love is. Nightcloud and Breezepelt are still described so negatively constantly, it's kind of tiring. We get the point. They're both bad.
In The Last Hope, Crowfeather says that Nightcloud encouraged Breezepelt to hate Crowfeather. This really hadn't been brought up before. They really drive home the point in The Ultimate Guide as well. Before this, Nightcloud is shown to be in love with Crowfeather, even though she resents his previous actions i.e. running away with Leafpool. But then, they retcon it. And they say that Nightcloud just wanted kits and didn't care too much about who would be the father. That contradicts her behavior in PoT and OoTS. Why would she be described as jealous so often if she wasn't really in love with Crowfeather to begin with?
Then, Crowfeather's Trial happens. This is after Vicky's departure from the series. All of a sudden, Nightcloud is described as a loyal, hard-working cat who is even mourned by cats who are not her Clanmates at her apparent death. Which is funny, because every time Nightcloud had been described at Gatherings prior, it had been in a negative light. It's not just limited to Jayfeather and Lionblaze. Even Flametail had noticed. Suddenly, she's loved and respected. But the question is why?
This is just me guesstimating, so please, do not take this as an attack on anyone's opinion. But once Vicky left the series, Kate and the others decided to really take into consideration the fan-reception on Nightcloud's character. Truth is, Nightcloud was an Ensemble Dark Horse even during the days of PoT. Crowfeather's actions are filthy; he literally uses her and eventually Breezepelt to show that he is loyal to WindClan; as if that really matters to him, since he was so quick to want to run away with Leafpool in TNP. Vicky seemed content to show Nightcloud and Breezepelt as villains, but didn't commit all the way with Crowfeather. But the problem is that the world is not so black and white. Anyone who has been cheated on or has dated anyone who wasn't fully over their ex can relate to Nightcloud's situation. That's why they tried to retcon it to Nightcloud never actually loving Crowfeather; again, this contradicts her behavior in PoT and OoTS. That's why she is popular; people relate to her, and they feel bad for her. That's why people overlook her negative actions.
Nightcloud should not have used Crowfeather, and Crowfeather should not have used her. The series doesn't care about the subtleties of consenting adult relationships. Someone has to be the bad guy. To Vicky, Nightcloud is the bad guy. To the current Erin team, it's mixed, but mostly it's Crowfeather. To the fandom, usually Crowfeather is the bad guy, but it depends on the person, as all things do.
I think Nightcloud's helicopter parenting styles are harmful, but they are a far-cry away from the actions of other terrible mothers in the series. However, with the introduction of the knowledge that Nightcloud speaking terribly of Crowfeather around Breezepelt, well, that's pretty bad. But is that a Vicky thing or the current series thing? It sure isn't brought up at all. How can anyone really have a concrete opinion on this pairing when the Erins themselves are so mixed?
Breezepelt was terrible, and maybe some people think he was redeemed in Crowfeather's Trial. But maybe he shouldn't have been a villain to begin with.
Are Nightcloud and Breezepelt the victims of Crowfeather's cold, callous decisions to restore his honor? Or are Nightcloud and Breezepelt utter jerks who hated Crowfeather because of his inability to move on? Which is it? All I know is that I really don't have the answer, because not even the Erins do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 11:50:06 GMT -5
...what are you talking about dude? nobody's being immature or name calling. someone saying the fans are "woobifying Nightcloud"? name calling = check a person acting super sarcastic bc theyre mad their favorite character gets a lot of flake? sarcastic behavior = check not exactly mature behavior from these posts im not mad at these ppl but this behavior is just sad. idk why ppl get so offended that they have to call names or act immature as a defense about it
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 11:51:07 GMT -5
Can we not get this thread locked?
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 7, 2020 11:54:53 GMT -5
...what are you talking about dude? nobody's being immature or name calling. someone saying the fans are "woobifying Nightcloud"? name calling = check a person acting super sarcastic bc theyre mad their favorite character gets a lot of flake? sarcastic behavior = check I fail to see how thinking that some fans overly downplay Nightcloud's responsbility is "name calling". there's nothing insulting about that, it's just commentary on fandom perception. who are you talking about with this supposed super sarcasm? everything i have witnessed has been quite civil. which i think most people would agree with but perhaps im mistaken
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Post by Emberstar 🔥 on Aug 7, 2020 12:00:03 GMT -5
Can we not get this thread locked? This is just growing way too serious... So yeh I think so too
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 12:01:17 GMT -5
someone saying the fans are "woobifying Nightcloud"? name calling = check a person acting super sarcastic bc theyre mad their favorite character gets a lot of flake? sarcastic behavior = check I fail to see how thinking that some fans overly downplay Nightcloud's responsbility is "name calling". there's nothing insulting about that, it's just commentary on fandom perception. who are you talking about with this supposed super sarcasm? everything i have witnessed has been quite civil. which i think most people would agree with but perhaps im mistaken its name calling if you're saying this directly at nightcloud fans. moonblazer clearly got upset about what the person said and i felt that behavior wasnt right. the sarcasm is in the other person's post. saying shit like "Wow, a mother chiding her husband to give her son a chance and the benefit of the doubt? Shock." idk about you but that felt like sarcasm to me. its not really a mature response and i realize im not being mature myself, but this happens so often here that its becoming a little sad. you dont need to respond with a sarcastic tone, instead be respectful about it and theres no need to insult nightcloud fans. do you see where im getting at? (not trying to be rude to you, just pointing out my opinion)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 12:09:42 GMT -5
Im saying that ppl should probably try to be a bit more respectful when it comes to debating. Sarcastic replies isnt the best way to handle things nor is insulting nightcloud fans. a person clearly got upset about it. i think warriors general needs to try to be nicer to people instead of getting upset and trying to piss ppl off. thats all im saying.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 7, 2020 12:09:54 GMT -5
Breezepelt was already building to a villain in PoT even though he never really reaches the mark until OoTS rolls around. i mostly agree with your post (well-written points!,) but i did want to add that i think Breezepelt did reach that mark in Sunrise when he attacked Jayfeather and pregnant Poppyfrost with Brokenstar's assistance. it pretty clearly established him as an antagonist imo. the only thing i disagree with is that i think Crowfeather did try to love Nightcloud. i think he desperately wanted to move on and have a much simpler life with a WindClan mate. but he was trying to force a connection beyond what level of affection was naturally there. he probably loved her as the mother of his child. but nightcloud (understandably) wanted more, and probably felt lesser/unlovable because she couldn't gain his genuine love like leafpool could. so her intense craving to be loved turned to resentment when crowfeather fell short of that with her, and perceived the issue as crowfeather secretly hating her for not being leafpool. idk how much of that can be proved in canon, but it was always the way i perceived the tragedy of the Crow/Night/Breeze dynamic.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 7, 2020 12:19:01 GMT -5
I fail to see how thinking that some fans overly downplay Nightcloud's responsbility is "name calling". there's nothing insulting about that, it's just commentary on fandom perception. who are you talking about with this supposed super sarcasm? everything i have witnessed has been quite civil. which i think most people would agree with but perhaps im mistaken its name calling if you're saying this directly at nightcloud fans. moonblazer clearly got upset about what the person said and i felt that behavior wasnt right. the sarcasm is in the other person's post. saying shit like "Wow, a mother chiding her husband to give her son a chance and the benefit of the doubt? Shock." idk about you but that felt like sarcasm to me. its not really a mature response and i realize im not being mature myself, but this happens so often here that its becoming a little sad. you dont need to respond with a sarcastic tone, instead be respectful about it and theres no need to insult nightcloud fans. do you see where im getting at? (not trying to be rude to you, just pointing out my opinion) i honestly think you may be overanalyzing... sarcasm isn't an inherently immature thing and the given usage doesn't strike me as rude. i can't speak for moonblazer, but their post seemed like commentary about how their experience with nightcloud discourse contradicted others', rather than being upset or personally offended. other people are free to correct me, but i don't think anyone else saw this discussion as immature. i understand where you are coming from-- it just felt a bit odd when you made that claim because to me it felt like it was coming out of no where.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 12:22:03 GMT -5
its name calling if you're saying this directly at nightcloud fans. moonblazer clearly got upset about what the person said and i felt that behavior wasnt right. the sarcasm is in the other person's post. saying shit like "Wow, a mother chiding her husband to give her son a chance and the benefit of the doubt? Shock." idk about you but that felt like sarcasm to me. its not really a mature response and i realize im not being mature myself, but this happens so often here that its becoming a little sad. you dont need to respond with a sarcastic tone, instead be respectful about it and theres no need to insult nightcloud fans. do you see where im getting at? (not trying to be rude to you, just pointing out my opinion) i honestly think you may be overanalyzing... sarcasm isn't an inherently immature thing and the given usage doesn't strike me as rude. i can't speak for moonblazer, but their post seemed like commentary about how their experience with nightcloud discourse contradicted others', rather than being upset or personally offended. other people are free to correct me, but i don't think anyone else saw this discussion as immature. i understand where you are coming from-- it just felt a bit odd when you made that claim because to me it felt like it was coming out of no where. eh, thank you for being mature about it at least. im not trying to start anything. behavior issues is clearly a problem from this section, otherwise why else would there be a warning from the mod? i think ppl need to be a bit nicer with replies instead of trying to piss ppl off. i do appreciate the mature reply though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 12:22:56 GMT -5
its just sad bc these ppl are in their 20s and yet they purposely try to make others feel bad for their opinion :/ its shitty and immature, theyre just fictional cat books
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Post by Sand on Aug 7, 2020 16:34:18 GMT -5
I’m more or less confused by some of the words on this thread because I’ve never ever seen them before (“woob” is what I’m referring to). Anyways, I’ll read through for the third time and see if I can really find anything. I am not able to find anything here currently that has broken any forum rules.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 16:46:57 GMT -5
I’m more or less confused by some of the words on this thread because I’ve never ever seen them before (“woob” is what I’m referring to). Anyways, I’ll read through for the third time and see if I can really find anything. I am not able to find anything here currently that has broken any forum rules. woobie/woobification is just the process of making a character out to be a “poor baby” or generally making the character out to be a victim/somebody you should feel excessively sorry for
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 7, 2020 19:31:47 GMT -5
For once....please ya. Chill.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 7, 2020 19:40:13 GMT -5
Not locked? Sweet
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Aug 7, 2020 19:43:16 GMT -5
its just sad bc these ppl are in their 20s and yet they purposely try to make others feel bad for their opinion :/ its shitty and immature, theyre just fictional cat books I mean, I've seen that happen a lot here. And on certain servers, and sites. But I don't think that's what's happening here this time
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 20:26:17 GMT -5
its just sad bc these ppl are in their 20s and yet they purposely try to make others feel bad for their opinion :/ its shitty and immature, theyre just fictional cat books I mean, I've seen that happen a lot here. And on certain servers, and sites. But I don't think that's what's happening here this time meh, ive moved on from this hours ago. i just wanted to say my two cents at how i think ppl should handle this better, thats all. Wasnt trying to create drama and im glad nobody got pissy about it lol. I appreciate the mature replies. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Aug 7, 2020 21:23:19 GMT -5
I mean, I've seen that happen a lot here. And on certain servers, and sites. But I don't think that's what's happening here this time meh, ive moved on from this hours ago. i just wanted to say my two cents at how i think ppl should handle this better, thats all. Wasnt trying to create drama and im glad nobody got pissy about it lol. I appreciate the mature replies. Sorry for the misunderstanding. You're fine. Your concerns are valid, and true to an extent. There is a lot of hostility over opinions in WG, and I agree with that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 22:01:34 GMT -5
meh, ive moved on from this hours ago. i just wanted to say my two cents at how i think ppl should handle this better, thats all. Wasnt trying to create drama and im glad nobody got pissy about it lol. I appreciate the mature replies. Sorry for the misunderstanding. You're fine. Your concerns are valid, and true to an extent. There is a lot of hostility over opinions in WG, and I agree with that. Ive had my own fair share of ppl being disrespectful over fictional book cats. it only happens here. ppl get mad bc you dont like a character and try to piss you off bc you disagree, ppl will talk shit about you if you disagree, ppl will make up rumors about you or say their opinion is a "fact" and shut yours down and shove it up in your ass and then act like a victim about it... all bc they dont like your opinion. its very childish and ive only seen this happen in warriors general and to some ppl ive spoken to. i have had some spats outside of this site but nothing extreme like how warriors general treats you. i can handle ppl whining and getting "hurt" over a disagreement, but ppl making someone feel like shit over it? too far, just grow the hell up. no wonder the mod put a behavior topic in this section.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 22:03:44 GMT -5
its like high school drama man. some of you guys need some growing up to do. just agree to disagree and move on. thats all we want, we dont need ppl being fake cause you guys cant handle a disagreement over fictional book cats. y'all be hurting others if you're not careful with this. Ive seen and heard some of the things that has happened on here in the past and some of it is surprising.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 7, 2020 22:07:35 GMT -5
maybe its because ive only been here for 6 weeks, but i see people complain about drama in WG way more than i actually see it
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 22:14:02 GMT -5
maybe its because ive only been here for 6 weeks, but i see people complain about drama in WG way more than i actually see it I'll PM you
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 7, 2020 22:15:13 GMT -5
its like high school drama man. some of you guys need some growing up to do. just agree to disagree and move on. thats all we want, we dont need ppl being fake cause you guys cant handle a disagreement over fictional book cats. y'all be hurting others if you're not careful with this. Ive seen and heard some of the things that has happened on here in the past and some of it is surprising. who are you talking to exactly? you are addressing everyone on this thread like we've done something wrong, and i'm extremely confused why you keep going on about past issues that aren't immediately applicable. i get that WG has a reputation. what i don't understand is why you keep ranting about it. there's no need to keep dredging up accusations of past immaturity when it's irrelevant to the conversations of now, and doesn't really do any good here.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 7, 2020 22:21:39 GMT -5
I fail to see how thinking that some fans overly downplay Nightcloud's responsbility is "name calling". there's nothing insulting about that, it's just commentary on fandom perception. who are you talking about with this supposed super sarcasm? everything i have witnessed has been quite civil. which i think most people would agree with but perhaps im mistaken its name calling if you're saying this directly at nightcloud fans. moonblazer clearly got upset about what the person said and i felt that behavior wasnt right. the sarcasm is in the other person's post. saying shit like "Wow, a mother chiding her husband to give her son a chance and the benefit of the doubt? Shock." idk about you but that felt like sarcasm to me. its not really a mature response and i realize im not being mature myself, but this happens so often here that its becoming a little sad. you dont need to respond with a sarcastic tone, instead be respectful about it and theres no need to insult nightcloud fans. do you see where im getting at? (not trying to be rude to you, just pointing out my opinion) I never got upset about it at all. I was only making an observation of what I have personally seen in fandom. Tbh I think all 3 of the family were much much better in Crowfeather’s Trial and that the subject is repetitive since everyone knows both parenting styles are not healthy. I just tend to see way more flack for Nightcloud, who isn’t even close to being a favorite of mine lol. I apologize if I offended you in some way though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 22:23:34 GMT -5
its name calling if you're saying this directly at nightcloud fans. moonblazer clearly got upset about what the person said and i felt that behavior wasnt right. the sarcasm is in the other person's post. saying shit like "Wow, a mother chiding her husband to give her son a chance and the benefit of the doubt? Shock." idk about you but that felt like sarcasm to me. its not really a mature response and i realize im not being mature myself, but this happens so often here that its becoming a little sad. you dont need to respond with a sarcastic tone, instead be respectful about it and theres no need to insult nightcloud fans. do you see where im getting at? (not trying to be rude to you, just pointing out my opinion) I never got upset about it at all. I was only making an observation of what I have personally seen in fandom. Tbh I think all 3 of the family were much much better in Crowfeather’s Trial and that the subject is repetitive since everyone knows both parenting styles are not healthy. I just tend to see way more flack for Nightcloud, who isn’t even close to being a favorite of mine lol. I apologize if I offended you in some way though. oh no, i wasn't upset at you! i was concerned if brindlefern upset you because your tone sounded like you were offended by what she said. i was never mad at you!
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 7, 2020 22:28:19 GMT -5
I never got upset about it at all. I was only making an observation of what I have personally seen in fandom. Tbh I think all 3 of the family were much much better in Crowfeather’s Trial and that the subject is repetitive since everyone knows both parenting styles are not healthy. I just tend to see way more flack for Nightcloud, who isn’t even close to being a favorite of mine lol. I apologize if I offended you in some way though. oh no, i wasn't upset at you! i was concerned if brindlefern upset you because your tone sounded like you were offended by what she said. i was never mad at you! O H my bad. I read it wrong! Oh naw naw, I was never upset at all by anything said in here, I genuinely was rather puzzled that there’s alot of Nightcloud threads and this idea of fandom babying her when I genuinely do see it alot more done with Crowfeather and Breezepelt. But I’m a-okay if people dislike her parenting. She wasn’t the best, but she also didn’t really have much healthy support either, but needless to say, I loved Crowfeather’s Trial because it addressed everything, and made all 3 of them seem more genuine and understandable. It’s all good! I’m certainly not upset or mad at anyone, and Brindle did nothing wrong either, they made good points and I can respect their thought on the matter! :3
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 22:29:24 GMT -5
oh no, i wasn't upset at you! i was concerned if brindlefern upset you because your tone sounded like you were offended by what she said. i was never mad at you! O H my bad. I read it wrong! Oh naw naw, I was never upset at all by anything said in here, I genuinely was rather puzzled that there’s alot of Nightcloud threads and this idea of fandom babying her when I genuinely do see it alot more done with Crowfeather and Breezepelt. But I’m a-okay if people dislike her parenting. She wasn’t the best, but she also didn’t really have much healthy support either, but needless to say, I loved Crowfeather’s Trial because it addressed everything, and made all 3 of them seem more genuine and understandable. It’s all good! I’m certainly not upset or mad at anyone, and Brindle did nothing wrong either, they made good points and I can respect their thought on the matter! :3 cool, thanks for being mature about this ^^
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Post by Sand on Aug 9, 2020 22:11:49 GMT -5
Sorry for getting to this late and keeping it away for longer than expected. Would've had it up yesterday but that didn't happen due to personal reasons. Anyways, it's unlocked and back now.
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