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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 11:34:25 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that the characters in this series are too forgiving of each other?
Firestar made Graystripe deputy even though he back-stabbed him over his relationship with Silverstream.
Squirrelflight took Brambleclaw back even though he ignored her.
The Dark Forest trainees faced no repercussions for cooperating with dead angry cats who wanted to destroy the Clans.
Firestar let Brambleclaw stay as deputy despite him plotting with his father and half-brother to murder him.
I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that came to my mind.
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Post by apricotfang on May 23, 2020 11:52:23 GMT -5
Yes I am 22 years old, so I believe that I have more life experience than most people on here, so trust me when I say that characters get forgiven way too much. Squirrelflight is the worst about this, she is always constantly lying, and doing whatever she wants, and then she gets rewarded for it. For instance, when she lied for many many years about the true parentage of Leafpool's kits, to her clan, her mate, everyone. Yeah, yeah, she was doing it to help her sister, but her clan should come first, and her loyalty to them. I am 22 years old, and in my long life, I've learned that honesty is always the best policy. In this case though, it seems like lying is the way to go, since Squirrelflight was rewarded for her indiscretions, not only with becoming deputy, but in other aspects as well. For instance, when she ran off with Brambleclaw, when she got back, everyone acted like the sun shone out of her fluffy-tailed butt, and she was even the one to find ThunderClan's new camp. Then with The Sisters, she went behind her leader's back, and started a war! If you're going to throw shade at Brambleclaw, I think some should be thrown at Squirrelflight as well, because she did more bad than him.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 23, 2020 12:05:50 GMT -5
Yes I am 22 years old, so I believe that I have more life experience than most people on here, so trust me when I say that characters get forgiven way too much. Squirrelflight is the worst about this, she is always constantly lying, and doing whatever she wants, and then she gets rewarded for it. For instance, when she lied for many many years about the true parentage of Leafpool's kits, to her clan, her mate, everyone. Yeah, yeah, she was doing it to help her sister, but her clan should come first, and her loyalty to them. I am 22 years old, and in my long life, I've learned that honesty is always the best policy. In this case though, it seems like lying is the way to go, since Squirrelflight was rewarded for her indiscretions, not only with becoming deputy, but in other aspects as well. For instance, when she ran off with Brambleclaw, when she got back, everyone acted like the sun shone out of her fluffy-tailed butt, and she was even the one to find ThunderClan's new camp. Then with The Sisters, she went behind her leader's back, and started a war! If you're going to throw shade at Brambleclaw, I think some should be thrown at Squirrelflight as well, because she did more bad than him. Not to be rude, but you're not older than a lot of users here. I'd say a good portion of us are in their 20's I'm 27 and I know several others who are similar in age That said, holding grudges won't get the clan anywhere. Especially over petty stuff.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 12:23:43 GMT -5
Yes I am 22 years old, so I believe that I have more life experience than most people on here, so trust me when I say that characters get forgiven way too much. Squirrelflight is the worst about this, she is always constantly lying, and doing whatever she wants, and then she gets rewarded for it. For instance, when she lied for many many years about the true parentage of Leafpool's kits, to her clan, her mate, everyone. Yeah, yeah, she was doing it to help her sister, but her clan should come first, and her loyalty to them. I am 22 years old, and in my long life, I've learned that honesty is always the best policy. In this case though, it seems like lying is the way to go, since Squirrelflight was rewarded for her indiscretions, not only with becoming deputy, but in other aspects as well. For instance, when she ran off with Brambleclaw, when she got back, everyone acted like the sun shone out of her fluffy-tailed butt, and she was even the one to find ThunderClan's new camp. Then with The Sisters, she went behind her leader's back, and started a war! If you're going to throw shade at Brambleclaw, I think some should be thrown at Squirrelflight as well, because she did more bad than him. Except I also threw shade at Firestar and the Dark Forest trainees. Did you even read my post?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 12:44:28 GMT -5
Forgiveness is a beautiful thing. Not regarding fictional characters here for a moment, it hurts to see that people would rather hold grudges than move on even if the person truly desires to change. If anything we don't value forgiveness enough.
That being said, I don't think the characters are "forgiven too much" in the series.
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Post by kinkajou on May 23, 2020 12:51:02 GMT -5
The worst case of being too forgiving is when Loinblaze murdered a cat AGAIN and was rewarded with being deputy lmao
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Post by chipster321 on May 23, 2020 15:25:51 GMT -5
The worst case of being too forgiving is when Loinblaze murdered a cat AGAIN and was rewarded with being deputy lmao Problem with this is that the first time with Russetfur (also a deputy!!) was a complete accident and she was literally murdering Firestar. Doesn’t matter if he had multiple lives, she was still killing him by taking one. All Lionblaze did was yank her off of him and she died due to how old and frail she was Russetfur shouldn’t have been allowed to be in any battles considering how ancient she was. Blackstar should have retired her long before then. The blame lied with Russetfur for not knowing when to stop and Blackstar for not stepping in when Russetfur made it clear she wouldn’t willingly retire. If it had been a younger cat in her place, chances are that even in Lionblaze handled them in the exact same manner they would have been perfectly fine. This time is also pretty debatable. Lionblaze killed Harestar because Harestar was supporting the imposter and refused to stop even when it was clear that the imposter was destroying to clans from inside out. Thunderclan worst of all. Killing another leader with all of their lives left was the best bet to end the battle. If they came back perfectly normal and sound, the imposter would seem even less credible. If Harestar hadn’t died and returned from Starclan, it’s highly likely that the battle would have continued. It only stopped because Harestar died and came back.
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Post by platinum blond death on May 23, 2020 15:52:27 GMT -5
Yes I am 22 years old, so I believe that I have more life experience than most people on here, so trust me when I say that characters get forgiven way too much. Squirrelflight is the worst about this, she is always constantly lying, and doing whatever she wants, and then she gets rewarded for it. For instance, when she lied for many many years about the true parentage of Leafpool's kits, to her clan, her mate, everyone. Yeah, yeah, she was doing it to help her sister, but her clan should come first, and her loyalty to them. I am 22 years old, and in my long life, I've learned that honesty is always the best policy. In this case though, it seems like lying is the way to go, since Squirrelflight was rewarded for her indiscretions, not only with becoming deputy, but in other aspects as well. For instance, when she ran off with Brambleclaw, when she got back, everyone acted like the sun shone out of her fluffy-tailed butt, and she was even the one to find ThunderClan's new camp. Then with The Sisters, she went behind her leader's back, and started a war! If you're going to throw shade at Brambleclaw, I think some should be thrown at Squirrelflight as well, because she did more bad than him. Not sure what age has to do with this, but okay. Anyways, there are a lot fo characters that get forgiven for things far worse than what Squirrelflight did. Breezepelt for example--he tried to murder both a queen and a medicine cat. Plus, he also turned traitor against his Clan. I personally do not think grudges should be held; it's an unhealthy behavior that does no one any good. That being said, these cats should've faced consequences, and not be forgiven via rewards. Breezepelt should've been exiled. Squirrelflight should've not been given the role of deputy. (It's also not wise to appoint your friends/family members in a high ranking position.) Graystripe also shouldn't have been given deputy either. And all of them should've faced appropriate consequences, like Fireheart did when he broke the rules. As for Squirrelflight, I wouldn't say she's always lying. The two main examples are Leafpool's kits and the fiasco with the Sisters. That's it. I may be wrong, but she's not constantly lying. And I don't condone that--it was wrong and she shouldn't have lied to her mate (and her Clan). Anyways, I don't really care for her, but I don't hate her either. Personally after SqH she's shifted lower on my list, but she's not on my hate list.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 18:22:41 GMT -5
The worst case of being too forgiving is when Loinblaze murdered a cat AGAIN and was rewarded with being deputy lmao Problem with this is that the first time with Russetfur (also a deputy!!) was a complete accident and she was literally murdering Firestar. Doesn’t matter if he had multiple lives, she was still killing him by taking one. All Lionblaze did was yank her off of him and she died due to how old and frail she was Russetfur shouldn’t have been allowed to be in any battles considering how ancient she was. Blackstar should have retired her long before then. The blame lied with Russetfur for not knowing when to stop and Blackstar for not stepping in when Russetfur made it clear she wouldn’t willingly retire. If it had been a younger cat in her place, chances are that even in Lionblaze handled them in the exact same manner they would have been perfectly fine. This time is also pretty debatable. Lionblaze killed Harestar because Harestar was supporting the imposter and refused to stop even when it was clear that the imposter was destroying to clans from inside out. Thunderclan worst of all. Killing another leader with all of their lives left was the best bet to end the battle. If they came back perfectly normal and sound, the imposter would seem even less credible. If Harestar hadn’t died and returned from Starclan, it’s highly likely that the battle would have continued. It only stopped because Harestar died and came back. So. Freaking. Glad that someone sees that Lionblaze didn't want to try to kill Russetfur. He just threw her off. That's it. He was protecting his leader, and he still felt pretty bad for killing her by accident. People need to stop demonizing him. He's not that bad. Jfc. Russetfur is the bad one here, not Lionblaze.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 18:38:15 GMT -5
Yes I am 22 years old, so I believe that I have more life experience than most people on here, so trust me when I say that characters get forgiven way too much. Squirrelflight is the worst about this, she is always constantly lying, and doing whatever she wants, and then she gets rewarded for it. For instance, when she lied for many many years about the true parentage of Leafpool's kits, to her clan, her mate, everyone. Yeah, yeah, she was doing it to help her sister, but her clan should come first, and her loyalty to them. I am 22 years old, and in my long life, I've learned that honesty is always the best policy. In this case though, it seems like lying is the way to go, since Squirrelflight was rewarded for her indiscretions, not only with becoming deputy, but in other aspects as well. For instance, when she ran off with Brambleclaw, when she got back, everyone acted like the sun shone out of her fluffy-tailed butt, and she was even the one to find ThunderClan's new camp. Then with The Sisters, she went behind her leader's back, and started a war! If you're going to throw shade at Brambleclaw, I think some should be thrown at Squirrelflight as well, because she did more bad than him. Not sure what age has to do with this, but okay. Anyways, there are a lot fo characters that get forgiven for things far worse than what Squirrelflight did. Breezepelt for example--he tried to murder both a queen and a medicine cat. Plus, he also turned traitor against his Clan. I personally do not think grudges should be held; it's an unhealthy behavior that does no one any good. That being said, these cats should've faced consequences, and not be forgiven via rewards. Breezepelt should've been exiled. Squirrelflight should've not been given the role of deputy. (It's also not wise to appoint your friends/family members in a high ranking position.) Graystripe also shouldn't have been given deputy either. And all of them should've faced appropriate consequences, like Fireheart did when he broke the rules. As for Squirrelflight, I wouldn't say she's always lying. The two main examples are Leafpool's kits and the fiasco with the Sisters. That's it. I may be wrong, but she's not constantly lying. And I don't condone that--it was wrong and she shouldn't have lied to her mate (and her Clan). Anyways, I don't really care for her, but I don't hate her either. Personally after SqH she's shifted lower on my list, but she's not on my hate list. All of them did face consequences though. It's not directly from the Clan, but they've all been punished. Graystripe: He lost both of his kits and Silverstream after giving birth. Feathertail was killed by Sharptooth, and Stormfur left the Clans. Breezepelt: Cats didn't trust him for the longest time and some even wanted him dead. Nightcloud also abandoned him for some stupid kittypet and made him think she was dead. Squirrelflight: She pretty much lost the Three's respect. Hollyleaf was the only one that forgave her; Jayfeather still holds onto it. She also lost her Clan's respect for the longest time and Bramble gave her the cold shoulder and was cold with her for years. Everyone's been punished, even if it's not directly from the Clan. Tbh the only one who got away with shit the most was Dovewing. She left her family and took advantage of her sister for years, only to be "happy" . I understand her, but it was utterly selfish and manipulative, and she got away with it easily with only a couple of cats pissed at her. She didn't face any harsh consequences like the others did, but was rewarded with kits and a mate for being disloyal. :/ she's a perfect example of a spoiled brat who acts really shitty to her mate and family, and she still gets what she wants.
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Post by highprince on May 23, 2020 20:57:20 GMT -5
Problem with this is that the first time with Russetfur (also a deputy!!) was a complete accident and she was literally murdering Firestar. Doesn’t matter if he had multiple lives, she was still killing him by taking one. All Lionblaze did was yank her off of him and she died due to how old and frail she was Russetfur shouldn’t have been allowed to be in any battles considering how ancient she was. Blackstar should have retired her long before then. The blame lied with Russetfur for not knowing when to stop and Blackstar for not stepping in when Russetfur made it clear she wouldn’t willingly retire. If it had been a younger cat in her place, chances are that even in Lionblaze handled them in the exact same manner they would have been perfectly fine. This time is also pretty debatable. Lionblaze killed Harestar because Harestar was supporting the imposter and refused to stop even when it was clear that the imposter was destroying to clans from inside out. Thunderclan worst of all. Killing another leader with all of their lives left was the best bet to end the battle. If they came back perfectly normal and sound, the imposter would seem even less credible. If Harestar hadn’t died and returned from Starclan, it’s highly likely that the battle would have continued. It only stopped because Harestar died and came back. So. Freaking. Glad that someone sees that Lionblaze didn't want to try to kill Russetfur. He just threw her off. That's it. He was protecting his leader, and he still felt pretty bad for killing her by accident. People need to stop demonizing him. He's not that bad. Jfc. Russetfur is the bad one here, not Lionblaze. Yes! All of this I've honestly never understood the hate for Lionblaze or why people are so against him being deputy or leader. He's always been fine for me - probably one of the least annoying protagonists. Plus, he actually got together and has a good relationship with someone from his own clan. And it's very true that killing Harestar was necessary. Unless a leader died, there was no way to prove that the impostor was lying about going to StarClan
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Post by platinum blond death on May 23, 2020 23:39:19 GMT -5
Not sure what age has to do with this, but okay. Anyways, there are a lot fo characters that get forgiven for things far worse than what Squirrelflight did. Breezepelt for example--he tried to murder both a queen and a medicine cat. Plus, he also turned traitor against his Clan. I personally do not think grudges should be held; it's an unhealthy behavior that does no one any good. That being said, these cats should've faced consequences, and not be forgiven via rewards. Breezepelt should've been exiled. Squirrelflight should've not been given the role of deputy. (It's also not wise to appoint your friends/family members in a high ranking position.) Graystripe also shouldn't have been given deputy either. And all of them should've faced appropriate consequences, like Fireheart did when he broke the rules. As for Squirrelflight, I wouldn't say she's always lying. The two main examples are Leafpool's kits and the fiasco with the Sisters. That's it. I may be wrong, but she's not constantly lying. And I don't condone that--it was wrong and she shouldn't have lied to her mate (and her Clan). Anyways, I don't really care for her, but I don't hate her either. Personally after SqH she's shifted lower on my list, but she's not on my hate list. All of them did face consequences though. It's not directly from the Clan, but they've all been punished. Graystripe: He lost both of his kits and Silverstream after giving birth. Feathertail was killed by Sharptooth, and Stormfur left the Clans. Breezepelt: Cats didn't trust him for the longest time and some even wanted him dead. Nightcloud also abandoned him for some stupid kittypet and made him think she was dead. Squirrelflight: She pretty much lost the Three's respect. Hollyleaf was the only one that forgave her; Jayfeather still holds onto it. She also lost her Clan's respect for the longest time and Bramble gave her the cold shoulder and was cold with her for years. Everyone's been punished, even if it's not directly from the Clan. Tbh the only one who got away with shit the most was Dovewing. She left her family and took advantage of her sister for years, only to be "happy" . I understand her, but it was utterly selfish and manipulative, and she got away with it easily with only a couple of cats pissed at her. She didn't face any harsh consequences like the others did, but was rewarded with kits and a mate for being disloyal. :/ she's a perfect example of a spoiled brat who acts really shitty to her mate and family, and she still gets what she wants. Ah yeah, you're right. My bad.
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Post by Thunderheart57 on May 24, 2020 8:47:53 GMT -5
I feel that this has become a trend in recent installments. Yes, I agree that there should have been consequences for the actions characters took in the Dark Forest battle, that not everybody can forgive so easily. Without that tension or emotional stakes, it feels so artificial. Not every story or character arc has a happy ending to it. It would have been more compelling if the Dark Forest trainees were punished in someway for conspiring with the Dark Forest cats in order to earn the trust back to the Clans, and for that to last a couple of months or even years. Maybe cats like Breezepelt would feel sorry for their actions and apologize to his extended family, Tigerheart becomes more humbled, and maybe pay respects to the trainees that never made it home.
There is so much untapped potential to create drama that doesn’t involve forbidden romances and the common territory disputes in the series. It never really followed through on the promises made by books such as The Last Hope or Dovewing’s Silence, where I felt that there was actual conflict going on between characters. That’s another problem the series has is the lack of character interaction. Minor characters would get more time in the spotlight and have more of a backstory to lean on.
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Post by halogen on May 24, 2020 10:36:43 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that the characters in this series are too forgiving of each other?
Firestar made Graystripe deputy even though he back-stabbed him over his relationship with Silverstream.
Squirrelflight took Brambleclaw back even though he ignored her.
The Dark Forest trainees faced no repercussions for cooperating with dead angry cats who wanted to destroy the Clans.
Firestar let Brambleclaw stay as deputy despite him plotting with his father and half-brother to murder him.
I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that came to my mind.
To be fair about some of these examples: Firestar didn't want to make Graystripe deputy but Whitestorm asked him to as he died. Which was bad writing, because it was basically an authorial loophole to get Graystripe as deputy without making Firestar look bad, even if it didn't make sense for Whitestorm. And as for the Dark Forest trainees, they were stupid to think they could trust the Dark Forest cats, but almost all of them didn't realize how bad they are and switched sides when they did realize, and they risked their lives more than everyone else in the battle. And with the Firestar and Bramblestar one, Firestar didn't know what was going through Brambleclaw's head like the readers did, he could have thought Brambleclaw's hesitation to save Firestar was just being scared that Hawkfrost would just kill both of them if he refused, or reluctance to kill his own brother, rather than (as the readers know) actually seriously considering killing Firestar just so he could get the leadership position. Given that Firestar had learned his lesson the first series about always thinking the worst of cats like Bramblestar... About Lionblaze, Russetfur wasn't his fault, but he has had a history of being legitimately over-the-top violent, like in Eclipse where he almost killed Crowfeather and Mosspelt (though he was young and being trained by Tigerstar and Hawkfrost at the time, and matured since then). Also, even if he didn't mean to kill Russetfur, he seemed pretty satisfied with what he had done and enjoying his violence when Flametail was insulting him by the border and he was thinking basically how he was glad he killed Russetfur and he wished he could brutally kill Flametail too.
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