|
Post by platinum blond death on Mar 23, 2020 19:03:30 GMT -5
Are there any cats/books/ships that you would absolutely go on a rampage about? Here are mine (I'll try not to go on a rant):
Onestar - Absolutely hate this guy; he was a jerk. He came off as arrogant and needlessly rude to everyone, plus the fact that he denied help to ShadowClan simply because his son was living near them. Also, the whole Darktail thing was stupid and unnecessary. Why not have his parent be, oh, I don't know, someone from ShadowClan?
Lizardstripe - I hate this cat with a passion. I hate how she was so mean to Brokenstar, I hate how she physically abused him, I hate how she didn't even want her own kits. I get her getting pregnant was probably a mistake, but you still gotta care for them.
Rainflower - Again, I hate her. She changed her kit's name just because of his appearance, belittled him, favored his brother, made him feel worthless, and never paid any attention to him simply because "he's ugly."
Raggedstar - He was an absolute jerk to Yellowfang, and was rude to her for no reason.
Yellowfang's Secret - Everyone in here was a jerk, the power was stupid and shoved in as a plot device, and it was overall unenjoyable.
Squirrelflight's Hope - Ugh, I hate this book. Did a threat on why, but the plot and the relationships were so bad and I swear no one in that book was reasonable save for SkyClan.
Spottedleaf's Heart - I don't get why they had to make Thistleclaw a you-know-what just for Spottedleaf to ditch her warrior duties. Plus, why include him at all??
YellowxRagged - This ship is toxic, full stop. Raggedstar keeps pressuring her to stay with him, and gets angry at her. I hated him in this book, because he was pushy and got mad at him whenever she did something he didn't like. Really?
SquirrelxBramble - Shaky at best, toxic at worst. These two didn't seem to have a great start, and SQH proved that their relationship went downhill over the last couple of books ever since they made up. Seriously, either break up or fix your problems for good. I'd also argue the fact that they're both mates and leader and deputy contributes to their fighting, but that's another topic.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 19:11:50 GMT -5
I completely agree about Onestar, he is a TERRIBLE guy. As for Raggedstar, I can understand him being a jerk towards Yellowfang, because she went behind his back, to try and find his father, or something, after he asked her countless times not to. But yeah, after she decides to become a medicine cat, he turns into a jerk. I can kind of understand why though, like, he didn't know about her powers, and they were already pretty much established mates, so yeah. I still didn't like the ship though, and Raggedstar annoyed me to death.
Here's more...
Moonflower - she is such a terrible sister to Goosefeather, like...it made me angry to read how she treated him. I know he's not perfect, but he's her brother, her ONLY brother. She's also treated like some delicate flower, which she isn't, despite her suffix lol..I mean, didn't she take on a badger by herself, as an apprentice?
Why on earth does almost EVERY main pairing have, that they either started out as hating each other, or one saves the life of another one, and then they become mates? Sometimes it's both. Or, the case of Clear Sky x Storm and Thunder x Violet...they just look at each other, and are suddenly in loveeee.
|
|
|
Post by Hollyfall on Mar 23, 2020 19:33:42 GMT -5
Dovewing - I just...can't even with her. Ditching your birth Clan without so much of an explanation, and then giving Tigerheart a ridiculous ultimatum of "me and the unborn kits I just told you about, or the Clan you're struggling to keep together". And then saying you're defecting to ShadowClan and going to visit them, and acting all hurt when they consider her a traitor? She was so selfish in Tigerheart's Shadow. There's other things, but I really do not like her.
FirexSpotted - This was essentially a high school crush that was dragged out far too long imo. Can't forget Sandstorm questioning hers and Firestar's love for one another even though it, at the time, had been going longer than Spottedleaf was even alive.
Breezepelt - My guy tried to kill heavily pregnant queen, a handicapped medicine cat, and several of his Clanmates, and he doesn't get punished for it? His "redemption" in Crowfeather's Trial was iffy at best. Sure, he might have learned from his mistakes, but trying to kill cats is a rather serious crime.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 20:46:26 GMT -5
SH happened because Vicky hates Thistleclaw and felt the need to add stuff on to make it actually justifiable he went to the DF
FirexSpotted and CrowxFeather: Both of these are high school crushes to me. They both died when the tom was an apprentice, but can't let go. Feathertail is less obnoxious than Spottedleaf, but I don't love her either.
BlossomIvy: Doesn't make sense. I'm all for a f/f ship, but one that makes SENSE. ThornBlossom and FernIvy are fine pairs.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 23, 2020 20:50:09 GMT -5
SH happened because Vicky hates Thistleclaw and felt the need to add stuff on to make it actually justifiable he went to the DF FirexSpotted and CrowxFeather: Both of these are high school crushes to me. They both died when the tom was an apprentice, but can't let go. Feathertail is less obnoxious than Spottedleaf, but I don't love her either. BlossomIvy: Doesn't make sense. I'm all for a f/f ship, but one that makes SENSE. ThornBlossom and FernIvy are fine pairs. thats the thing. thistleclaw was already bad so adding the creepy-to-a-kit thing is not needed. he's a watered down version of tigerstar 1 and yet someone decided to add THAT creepy aspect for no reason. ruining or adding things to characters isnt needed. if he went to the dark forest for going against bluestar (a cat starclan knew was destined to save thunderclan in the future) then thats enough. if he went to the dark forest for being violent, closed minded, and selfish, then thats good enough too bc thats similar to tigerstar except thistleclaw wasnt clever or patient enough to plan things like tigerstar 1 was.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 20:51:37 GMT -5
SH happened because Vicky hates Thistleclaw and felt the need to add stuff on to make it actually justifiable he went to the DF FirexSpotted and CrowxFeather: Both of these are high school crushes to me. They both died when the tom was an apprentice, but can't let go. Feathertail is less obnoxious than Spottedleaf, but I don't love her either. BlossomIvy: Doesn't make sense. I'm all for a f/f ship, but one that makes SENSE. ThornBlossom and FernIvy are fine pairs. thats the thing. thistleclaw was already bad so adding the creepy-to-a-kit thing is not needed. he's a watered down version of tigerstar 1 and yet someone decided to add THAT creepy aspect for no reason. ruining or adding things to characters isnt needed. if he went to the dark forest for going against bluestar (a cat starclan knew was destined to save thunderclan in the future) then thats enough. if he went to the dark forest for being violent, closed minded, and selfish, then thats good enough too bc thats similar to tigerstar except thistleclaw wasnt clever or patient enough to plan things like tigerstar 1 was. I don't think Thistleclaw would have actually betrayed Thunderclan in life. Even Bluestar, who HATES him, says he was a very loyal warrior - which was why he was so admired. He seemed to be training in the DF for strength, like so many cats before him.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 23, 2020 20:53:51 GMT -5
thats the thing. thistleclaw was already bad so adding the creepy-to-a-kit thing is not needed. he's a watered down version of tigerstar 1 and yet someone decided to add THAT creepy aspect for no reason. ruining or adding things to characters isnt needed. if he went to the dark forest for going against bluestar (a cat starclan knew was destined to save thunderclan in the future) then thats enough. if he went to the dark forest for being violent, closed minded, and selfish, then thats good enough too bc thats similar to tigerstar except thistleclaw wasnt clever or patient enough to plan things like tigerstar 1 was. I don't think Thistleclaw would have actually betrayed Thunderclan in life. Even Bluestar, who HATES him, says he was a very loyal warrior - which was why he was so admired. He seemed to be training in the DF for strength, like so many cats before him. i agree hes not as bad as tigerstar 1 but in warriors, wanting power is seen as a bad thing. ambition is linked to villany for some reason, even though good ambition exists like with brambleclaw (earlier in the series).
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 20:58:18 GMT -5
I don't think Thistleclaw would have actually betrayed Thunderclan in life. Even Bluestar, who HATES him, says he was a very loyal warrior - which was why he was so admired. He seemed to be training in the DF for strength, like so many cats before him. i agree hes not as bad as tigerstar 1 but in warriors, wanting power is seen as a bad thing. ambition is linked to villany for some reason, even though good ambition exists like with brambleclaw (earlier in the series). Which is so weird and a total flaw in the series. Thistleclaw seemed like he genuinely wanted to serve his clan and thought he was doing the right thing. What he did to Scourge was totally wrong, but there are cats who have done far worse who get into Starclan. Besides that and being overly ambitious, he certainly wasn't a good cat, but he wasn't Satan like Tigerstar either. Obviously he had a good side, because he loved Snowfur and I'd argue, Whitestorm (though he felt he was too soft) Either way, SH was totally unnecessary and went against both Thistleclaw (who really, in my opinion, should have never taken any kind of romantic interest in anyone else after his devastation about Snowfur) and Spottedleaf (wasn't it said that she always wanted to be a med cat?). Book was 5000 layers of trash. If they rewrote the whole thing and scrapped the last version, no one would be sad.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 23, 2020 21:01:03 GMT -5
i agree hes not as bad as tigerstar 1 but in warriors, wanting power is seen as a bad thing. ambition is linked to villany for some reason, even though good ambition exists like with brambleclaw (earlier in the series). Which is so weird and a total flaw in the series. Thistleclaw seemed like he genuinely wanted to serve his clan and thought he was doing the right thing. What he did to Scourge was totally wrong, but there are cats who have done far worse who get into Starclan. Besides that and being overly ambitious, he certainly wasn't a good cat, but he wasn't Satan like Tigerstar either. Obviously he had a good side, because he loved Snowfur and I'd argue, Whitestorm (though he felt he was too soft) Either way, SH was totally unnecessary and went against both Thistleclaw (who really, in my opinion, should have never taken any kind of romantic interest in anyone else after his devastation about Snowfur) and Spottedleaf (wasn't it said that she always wanted to be a med cat?). Book was 5000 layers of trash. If they rewrote the whole thing and scrapped the last version, no one would be sad. agreed. i dont like how in the past, people used to compare him to mudclaw, but mudclaw's situation was different because of the code being fallible. i want a rewrite of SH where she actually WANTS to be a medicine cat and no romance is involved. her and firepaw/hearts feelings in the original series was enough. as much as i dislike her, there SHOULD be more to her than just what we got.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 21:04:03 GMT -5
Which is so weird and a total flaw in the series. Thistleclaw seemed like he genuinely wanted to serve his clan and thought he was doing the right thing. What he did to Scourge was totally wrong, but there are cats who have done far worse who get into Starclan. Besides that and being overly ambitious, he certainly wasn't a good cat, but he wasn't Satan like Tigerstar either. Obviously he had a good side, because he loved Snowfur and I'd argue, Whitestorm (though he felt he was too soft) Either way, SH was totally unnecessary and went against both Thistleclaw (who really, in my opinion, should have never taken any kind of romantic interest in anyone else after his devastation about Snowfur) and Spottedleaf (wasn't it said that she always wanted to be a med cat?). Book was 5000 layers of trash. If they rewrote the whole thing and scrapped the last version, no one would be sad. agreed. i dont like how in the past, people used to compare him to mudclaw, but mudclaw's situation was different because of the code being fallible. i want a rewrite of SH where she actually WANTS to be a medicine cat and no romance is involved. her and firepaw/hearts feelings in the original series was enough. as much as i dislike her, there SHOULD be more to her than just what we got. I think a lot of us hate Spottedleaf because her only personality is bad romance. I felt so bad for Sandstorm in Firestar's Quest. Imagine your husband's ghost crush constantly coming down and flirting with your husband. Right in front of you. And being like '...I guess I support you guys' I don't know. She only serves to ruin other characters
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 23, 2020 21:07:55 GMT -5
agreed. i dont like how in the past, people used to compare him to mudclaw, but mudclaw's situation was different because of the code being fallible. i want a rewrite of SH where she actually WANTS to be a medicine cat and no romance is involved. her and firepaw/hearts feelings in the original series was enough. as much as i dislike her, there SHOULD be more to her than just what we got. I think a lot of us hate Spottedleaf because her only personality is bad romance. I felt so bad for Sandstorm in Firestar's Quest. Imagine your husband's ghost crush constantly coming down and flirting with your husband. Right in front of you. And being like '...I guess I support you guys' I don't know. She only serves to ruin other characters aaah yes never forget Spottedleaf Speaks...the part where spottedleaf is just like "i only support you being with him because im not there to be with him instead" ouch. lol
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 21:15:24 GMT -5
I think a lot of us hate Spottedleaf because her only personality is bad romance. I felt so bad for Sandstorm in Firestar's Quest. Imagine your husband's ghost crush constantly coming down and flirting with your husband. Right in front of you. And being like '...I guess I support you guys' I don't know. She only serves to ruin other characters aaah yes never forget Spottedleaf Speaks...the part where spottedleaf is just like "i only support you being with him because im not there to be with him instead" ouch. lol And how she wishes Sandstorm would just disappear. Ugh. While I don't like Crow/Feather or love Feathertail, at least she seemed to genuinely want Crowfeather to be happy when he's with Leafpool. I wouldn't even say Spottedleaf was in love so much as she was obsessed.
|
|
|
Post by platinum blond death on Mar 23, 2020 21:16:07 GMT -5
I think a lot of us hate Spottedleaf because her only personality is bad romance. I felt so bad for Sandstorm in Firestar's Quest. Imagine your husband's ghost crush constantly coming down and flirting with your husband. Right in front of you. And being like '...I guess I support you guys' I don't know. She only serves to ruin other characters aaah yes never forget Spottedleaf Speaks...the part where spottedleaf is just like "i only support you being with him because im not there to be with him instead" ouch. lol Oh yikes, really? That's just messed up. I wish we got something more out of SH and Spottedleaf instead of "Thistleclaw's a creep" and "uwu eyes for Fireheart."
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 21:25:57 GMT -5
aaah yes never forget Spottedleaf Speaks...the part where spottedleaf is just like "i only support you being with him because im not there to be with him instead" ouch. lol Oh yikes, really? That's just messed up. I wish we got something more out of SH and Spottedleaf instead of "Thistleclaw's a creep" and "uwu eyes for Fireheart." Spottedleaf is pretty gross about Sandstorm in Spottedleaf Speaks. Which points against her being a mary sue, but also points to her just having a terrible personality and not being as nice as they try to portray her to be. Should take a page out of Silverstream's book Was ACTUALLY mates with Graystripe, but is supportive of his relationship with Millie (I'd like to think they share him in Starclan) and is a Starclan guide that is actually useful. Or a page from Honeyfern's book who was also super supportive of her sister being with her mate.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 23, 2020 21:31:24 GMT -5
Needletail is a character who a certain sect of the fandom seems to delight in white washing, and the books themselves. She was an abusive, selfish figure to Violetshine who does not deserve to be described as her sister or friend, when all she did was manipulate and use Violetshine for her own ends up until her boyfriend got killed and she suddenly had a personal stake in hating Darktail. She was not all bad, but she was ruled by her vices for the majority of her life, and utterly awful for Violetshine. Yet not one piece of fanart, not one fanvideo, not a lick of anything ever addresses the absolute nightmare that was Violetshine's childhood all thanks to Needletail. Needletail is instead portrayed as a noble, loyal protector of little Violetshine.
And THAT rankles me.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 23, 2020 21:34:53 GMT -5
Needletail is a character who a certain sect of the fandom seems to delight in white washing, and the books themselves. She was an abusive, selfish figure to Violetshine who does not deserve to be described as her sister or friend, when all she did was manipulate and use Violetshine for her own ends up until her boyfriend got killed and she suddenly had a personal stake in hating Darktail. She was not all bad, but she was ruled by her vices for the majority of her life, and utterly awful for Violetshine. Yet not one piece of fanart, not one fanvideo, not a lick of anything ever addresses the absolute nightmare that was Violetshine's childhood all thanks to Needletail. Needletail is instead portrayed as a noble, loyal protector of little Violetshine. And THAT rankles me. Yes! I feel like people make her look like this martyr when part of Shadowclan's fall to Darktail fell on her. Was she completely at fault? No. But ignoring her as a big part of what riled the others up and her secret meetings with Darktail.... Ugh.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 23, 2020 21:40:38 GMT -5
Needletail is a character who a certain sect of the fandom seems to delight in white washing, and the books themselves. She was an abusive, selfish figure to Violetshine who does not deserve to be described as her sister or friend, when all she did was manipulate and use Violetshine for her own ends up until her boyfriend got killed and she suddenly had a personal stake in hating Darktail. She was not all bad, but she was ruled by her vices for the majority of her life, and utterly awful for Violetshine. Yet not one piece of fanart, not one fanvideo, not a lick of anything ever addresses the absolute nightmare that was Violetshine's childhood all thanks to Needletail. Needletail is instead portrayed as a noble, loyal protector of little Violetshine. And THAT rankles me. Yes! I feel like people make her look like this martyr when part of Shadowclan's fall to Darktail fell on her. Was she completely at fault? No. But ignoring her as a big part of what riled the others up and her secret meetings with Darktail.... Ugh. Needletail enjoyed Darktail's rise to power, loved his style of ruling. She was noted to be excited and happy back in the old Skyclan camp and cheering on Rain as he tried to brawl Darktail. Her problems with Darktail only started once he personally hurt her by killing Rain, before that, she was a full hearted supporter. But even ignoring the Darktail stuff, she manipulated and used Violetshine. She puts Rainflower and Lizardstripe to shame there, because they didn't ask for their kits at least. Needletail, on the other hand, actively DEMANDED to be given Violetshine was a prize for the quest and then proceeded to just dump her in the nursery and not even check on her whatsoever. It was as if Violetshine was just a shiny rock or toy to her that she got bored with instantly. Needletail only became her "friend" when she realized she could use Violetshine as a useful tool to communicate with Darktail and because she was an addict to breaking the rules. Rainflower and Lizardstripe insulted their kits, but at least they never thrust them into danger purely for their selfish caprices and then gaslight them into thinking that such actions were actually signs of friendship.
|
|
#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
|
Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 23, 2020 22:55:52 GMT -5
Needletail is a character who a certain sect of the fandom seems to delight in white washing, and the books themselves. She was an abusive, selfish figure to Violetshine who does not deserve to be described as her sister or friend, when all she did was manipulate and use Violetshine for her own ends up until her boyfriend got killed and she suddenly had a personal stake in hating Darktail. She was not all bad, but she was ruled by her vices for the majority of her life, and utterly awful for Violetshine. Yet not one piece of fanart, not one fanvideo, not a lick of anything ever addresses the absolute nightmare that was Violetshine's childhood all thanks to Needletail. Needletail is instead portrayed as a noble, loyal protector of little Violetshine. And THAT rankles me. ^ This is why I don't like Needletail. While I don't like Violetshine, I pity her due to her awful childhood. She could have been happier with Twigbranch, but nope! Needletail had to ruin that.
|
|
|
Post by Stonetoe on Mar 23, 2020 23:07:36 GMT -5
I could rant about how much I love Bluestar's Prophecy.
|
|
|
Post by platinum blond death on Mar 23, 2020 23:07:50 GMT -5
Needletail is a character who a certain sect of the fandom seems to delight in white washing, and the books themselves. She was an abusive, selfish figure to Violetshine who does not deserve to be described as her sister or friend, when all she did was manipulate and use Violetshine for her own ends up until her boyfriend got killed and she suddenly had a personal stake in hating Darktail. She was not all bad, but she was ruled by her vices for the majority of her life, and utterly awful for Violetshine. Yet not one piece of fanart, not one fanvideo, not a lick of anything ever addresses the absolute nightmare that was Violetshine's childhood all thanks to Needletail. Needletail is instead portrayed as a noble, loyal protector of little Violetshine. And THAT rankles me. While I need to reread AVoS, I definitely didn't like Needletail. I didn't think it was good to bring a kit into a group of dangerous/unknown rogues. Plus, she guilt tripped Violetpaw into staying with her.
|
|
|
Post by cappuccinokitty on Mar 24, 2020 2:21:46 GMT -5
Lionblaze was bland and whatever potential he had was executed terribly, or just not mentioned at all. Dovewing. Don’t get me started. Spottedleaf. Mature, adult woman stalking an apprentice and his descendants years after she died, even after he had a mate and children. She’s boring, lacks flaws and her ‘development’ only revolves around Firestar. Sacrificing herself for Sandstorm so that Firestar wouldn’t have to chose between them just felt a bit obnoxious? She really thinks that Firestar would choose her, his childhood crush, over his mate his entire life, and mother to his children? It just felt wrong.
|
|
|
Post by halogen on Mar 25, 2020 18:26:59 GMT -5
Yes! I feel like people make her look like this martyr when part of Shadowclan's fall to Darktail fell on her. Was she completely at fault? No. But ignoring her as a big part of what riled the others up and her secret meetings with Darktail.... Ugh. Needletail enjoyed Darktail's rise to power, loved his style of ruling. She was noted to be excited and happy back in the old Skyclan camp and cheering on Rain as he tried to brawl Darktail. Her problems with Darktail only started once he personally hurt her by killing Rain, before that, she was a full hearted supporter. But even ignoring the Darktail stuff, she manipulated and used Violetshine. She puts Rainflower and Lizardstripe to shame there, because they didn't ask for their kits at least. Needletail, on the other hand, actively DEMANDED to be given Violetshine was a prize for the quest and then proceeded to just dump her in the nursery and not even check on her whatsoever. It was as if Violetshine was just a shiny rock or toy to her that she got bored with instantly. Needletail only became her "friend" when she realized she could use Violetshine as a useful tool to communicate with Darktail and because she was an addict to breaking the rules. Rainflower and Lizardstripe insulted their kits, but at least they never thrust them into danger purely for their selfish caprices and then gaslight them into thinking that such actions were actually signs of friendship. I mean to be fair to Needletail, she wasn't and didn't intend to be Violetshine's mother like with Rainflower and Lizardstripe, she didn't ask for Violetshine expecting to be given full responsibility for her and expecting that her foster mother would end up being so neglectful - it was still selfish and objectifying but she couldn't have known quite how badly it would turn out for Violetshine compared to for Twigbranch. If Pinenose was switched with Lilyheart so Violetshine got someone who took care of her perfectly well, Needletail wouldn't look as bad in that regard.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 25, 2020 19:56:22 GMT -5
Needletail enjoyed Darktail's rise to power, loved his style of ruling. She was noted to be excited and happy back in the old Skyclan camp and cheering on Rain as he tried to brawl Darktail. Her problems with Darktail only started once he personally hurt her by killing Rain, before that, she was a full hearted supporter. But even ignoring the Darktail stuff, she manipulated and used Violetshine. She puts Rainflower and Lizardstripe to shame there, because they didn't ask for their kits at least. Needletail, on the other hand, actively DEMANDED to be given Violetshine was a prize for the quest and then proceeded to just dump her in the nursery and not even check on her whatsoever. It was as if Violetshine was just a shiny rock or toy to her that she got bored with instantly. Needletail only became her "friend" when she realized she could use Violetshine as a useful tool to communicate with Darktail and because she was an addict to breaking the rules. Rainflower and Lizardstripe insulted their kits, but at least they never thrust them into danger purely for their selfish caprices and then gaslight them into thinking that such actions were actually signs of friendship. I mean to be fair to Needletail, she wasn't and didn't intend to be Violetshine's mother like with Rainflower and Lizardstripe, she didn't ask for Violetshine expecting to be given full responsibility for her and expecting that her foster mother would end up being so neglectful - it was still selfish and objectifying but she couldn't have known quite how badly it would turn out for Violetshine compared to for Twigbranch. If Pinenose was switched with Lilyheart so Violetshine got someone who took care of her perfectly well, Needletail wouldn't look as bad in that regard. It was a kit she demanded to be given and she couldn't even be bothered to talk to Violetshine. She may not have expected full responsibility of her as a caretaker, but she had every reason to invest at least some time to make sure that her trophy was getting along well. She couldn't even muster the interest someone ought to give their pet, let alone a kit. Even if Pinenose was the best mother ever, the fact that Needletail just lazed without interacting with the kit she wanted to be given up until it allowed her an avenue to be spiteful and self-serving makes her look bad. It would only be the most marginal of improvements to Needletail's image. And with regards to the Rainflower and Lizardstripe comparison, they didn't ask for their kits to be nasty to look at or to be given them. Obviously they are still terrible parents(particularly Rainflower) for not taking it in stride as parents ought to and unjustifiable, but the fact that Needletail deliberately asked for such an awful circumstance(namely ripping Violetshine away from her sister) and then didn't care makes her at least comparable to them in my eyes.
|
|
|
Post by Jayie on Mar 25, 2020 20:09:41 GMT -5
Goosefeather. I could rant about how much I hate that self-serving furball and why for a very, very long time. Also possibly on why Thistleclaw deserved the DF, SH or no SH.
|
|
|
Post by halogen on Mar 25, 2020 21:43:37 GMT -5
I mean to be fair to Needletail, she wasn't and didn't intend to be Violetshine's mother like with Rainflower and Lizardstripe, she didn't ask for Violetshine expecting to be given full responsibility for her and expecting that her foster mother would end up being so neglectful - it was still selfish and objectifying but she couldn't have known quite how badly it would turn out for Violetshine compared to for Twigbranch. If Pinenose was switched with Lilyheart so Violetshine got someone who took care of her perfectly well, Needletail wouldn't look as bad in that regard. It was a kit she demanded to be given and she couldn't even be bothered to talk to Violetshine. She may not have expected full responsibility of her as a caretaker, but she had every reason to invest at least some time to make sure that her trophy was getting along well. She couldn't even muster the interest someone ought to give their pet, let alone a kit. Even if Pinenose was the best mother ever, the fact that Needletail just lazed without interacting with the kit she wanted to be given up until it allowed her an avenue to be spiteful and self-serving makes her look bad. It would only be the most marginal of improvements to Needletail's image. And with regards to the Rainflower and Lizardstripe comparison, they didn't ask for their kits to be nasty to look at or to be given them. Obviously they are still terrible parents(particularly Rainflower) for not taking it in stride as parents ought to and unjustifiable, but the fact that Needletail deliberately asked for such an awful circumstance(namely ripping Violetshine away from her sister) and then didn't care makes her at least comparable to them in my eyes. I mean by that logic, shouldn't you be equally critical or Rowanstar for not interacting enough with Violetshine, or Bramblestar for not interacting enough with Twigbranch, because they made the official decision? I think both Needltail and Rainflower/Lizardstripe were bad but they aren't really comparable (not in a "Needletail was much better" way or anything, just in a "they aren't really comparable because the situations are different" sort of way. In some ways Needletail was worse, as you pointed out, because she was the one who put Violetshine in her horrible situation in the first place for her and her Clan to have her and then ignored her, but I don't think there's a clear direct comparison.)
|
|
|
Post by Jayie on Mar 25, 2020 23:05:56 GMT -5
It was a kit she demanded to be given and she couldn't even be bothered to talk to Violetshine. She may not have expected full responsibility of her as a caretaker, but she had every reason to invest at least some time to make sure that her trophy was getting along well. She couldn't even muster the interest someone ought to give their pet, let alone a kit. Even if Pinenose was the best mother ever, the fact that Needletail just lazed without interacting with the kit she wanted to be given up until it allowed her an avenue to be spiteful and self-serving makes her look bad. It would only be the most marginal of improvements to Needletail's image. And with regards to the Rainflower and Lizardstripe comparison, they didn't ask for their kits to be nasty to look at or to be given them. Obviously they are still terrible parents(particularly Rainflower) for not taking it in stride as parents ought to and unjustifiable, but the fact that Needletail deliberately asked for such an awful circumstance(namely ripping Violetshine away from her sister) and then didn't care makes her at least comparable to them in my eyes. I mean by that logic, shouldn't you be equally critical or Rowanstar for not interacting enough with Violetshine, or Bramblestar for not interacting enough with Twigbranch, because they made the official decision? I think both Needltail and Rainflower/Lizardstripe were bad but they aren't really comparable (not in a "Needletail was much better" way or anything, just in a "they aren't really comparable because the situations are different" sort of way. In some ways Needletail was worse, as you pointed out, because she was the one who put Violetshine in her horrible situation in the first place for her and her Clan to have her and then ignored her, but I don't think there's a clear direct comparison.) Who says we don’t blame Rowan and Bramble for tearing two littermates apart and then doing nothing to make them feel wanted in their new Clans?
|
|
|
Post by moonmasksunfrost on Mar 25, 2020 23:13:47 GMT -5
TigerDove as a ship makes me angry- the fact that there was so much flip-flopping on Dovewing's part (don't blame her for feelings confusion, but Tigerheart lied to her and betrayed her trust on numerous occasions, however 'pure' his feelings for her were, and that was no bueno.) I haven't read Tigerheartstar's SE but feel like I should- whether that softens my stance on the whole thing or just provides me with more ammunition haha. I haven't read all of AVoS but I remember the "splitting" of the kits was one thing that really bugged me. I agree with you guys' sentiments on that- though, having not read the whole arc, I don't have a particularly strong opinion on Needle yet. I don't like her necessarily, but it hasn't tipped over into dislike/hatred or anything (yet?). I also continue to nurse a grudge against Berrynose. I'm willing to look past his initial immaturity, but his actions in Dovewing's Silence are what got me. He and Poppyfrost were extremely hostile to cats who fought on their side in the Great Battle. Cats they had known, and trusted, who made a mistake. They took this so overboard that their kids thought it would be a funny idea to mislead a patrol comprised of said ostracized cats into fighting a fox, which I think in large part was because of the prejudiced example of their parents. Not!! Good!! Clear Sky, too- the guy will never be one of my favorites, but I was able to see and respect the development he went through over the course of DotC. I was willing to keep my opinion of him fairly neutral, but then along comes Moth Flight's Vision, in which the erins promptly seem to throw all that out the window and have him revert back into being the Overly Aggressive Neighbor, ultimately leading to Micah's death. I could also go on about the medicine-cats-aren't-allowed-to-have-mates rule, seeing as it was enacted by Moth Flight, who was a) recently widowed/still grieving, young, and c) trying to found the order of medicine cats?? No wonder she felt it was too high-pressure. I feel that, so long as there's another fully-trained medicine cat available to the clan, that there's no reason medicine cats should have to remain single. Doctors and priests/pastors in our world aren't expected to be celibate and unmarried, are they? No. This simple amendment would have saved us a bunch of "forbidden romance" plots. I'm a little behind on books, but these are some of the things that never fail to rile me up.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2020 7:01:03 GMT -5
It was a kit she demanded to be given and she couldn't even be bothered to talk to Violetshine. She may not have expected full responsibility of her as a caretaker, but she had every reason to invest at least some time to make sure that her trophy was getting along well. She couldn't even muster the interest someone ought to give their pet, let alone a kit. Even if Pinenose was the best mother ever, the fact that Needletail just lazed without interacting with the kit she wanted to be given up until it allowed her an avenue to be spiteful and self-serving makes her look bad. It would only be the most marginal of improvements to Needletail's image. And with regards to the Rainflower and Lizardstripe comparison, they didn't ask for their kits to be nasty to look at or to be given them. Obviously they are still terrible parents(particularly Rainflower) for not taking it in stride as parents ought to and unjustifiable, but the fact that Needletail deliberately asked for such an awful circumstance(namely ripping Violetshine away from her sister) and then didn't care makes her at least comparable to them in my eyes. I mean by that logic, shouldn't you be equally critical or Rowanstar for not interacting enough with Violetshine, or Bramblestar for not interacting enough with Twigbranch, because they made the official decision? I think both Needltail and Rainflower/Lizardstripe were bad but they aren't really comparable (not in a "Needletail was much better" way or anything, just in a "they aren't really comparable because the situations are different" sort of way. In some ways Needletail was worse, as you pointed out, because she was the one who put Violetshine in her horrible situation in the first place for her and her Clan to have her and then ignored her, but I don't think there's a clear direct comparison.) Rowanstar and Brambleclaw's decision to rip them apart was a bad thing, however, Brambleclaw lost responsibility of her afterwards and could not perpetuate Violetshine's problems. Letting her go to begin with was cowardly and irresponsible, and he deserves to be raked across the coals for it, but he did not actively perpetuate it. As for Rowanstar, again, it was self-serving and morally bankrupt to take Violetshine, but unlike Needletail, at least he did do something. He had Pinenose take care of Violetshine and while one can argue about how good Pinenose was at that or not, it showed at least a bare minimum level of investment that Needletail wasn't willing to give. At the very least he did something as opposed to nothing.
|
|
|
Post by kells on Mar 26, 2020 16:01:00 GMT -5
I can rant for days about how much I hate Leafpool and Squirrelflight. And let's not forget Clear Sky, I could possibly forgive him for the mistake he made if only he didn't try to cover it up when it was brought up to Quiet Rain.
All AVoS POVS were insufferable, and the plot was just a watered-down remake of OotS at that.
I can also go on about how Spottedleaf's Heart was nowhere near as bad as people make it seem. There's no way people can love Crookedstar's Promise yet freak out so badly when that was released.
The SquirrelxBramble ship is also insufferable. I scoffed at the idea of it being unhealthy at around early AVoS era. Now? I'm not sure about that anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 16:03:26 GMT -5
kellsI'm curious as to why you dislike Leafpool and Squirrelflight, I'm not a huge fan of theirs either, but it seems like mostly everyone just adores them. I think I've only seen one other person not like Squirrelflight.
|
|